427 replies to this topic

[Captain Stiffy]

YueFei, on 12 October 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

There's no such thing as an NFL rule that says you have to have X players above 300 pounds, Y players between 250 and 299, and Z players between 200 and 249.

This game needs to be designed in such a way that all sizes of mechs are desirable and necessary.

Right but there is such a thing as NFL teams that utterly get ROFLSTOMPED year after year because they can't put the players together that they need. There's just as large a meta in the NFL as in MWO.

[Jonny Monroe]

I always thought the role of mediums was originally meant to be that of the wolf-pack. only a little slower than lights but better able to handle itself in a brawl, and use that speed to get where they need to be. Lights, I first thought (back when I started this game) would be more about guerrilla warfare and information warfare; running as spotters or distracting/turning an enemy before the real fighters hit them. What I ended up seeing was the lights running in wolf-packs, nobody occupying the niche roles and all the direct {Richard Cameron}-punching combat being done by heavies and assaults.

To me, you need to make it less desirable to take a light mech up against a larger mech in a direct fight, because that is what is directly treading on the role mediums should occupy. Being faster than mediums isn't the problem. It's being faster than them and being equally capable of joining in the big fights. Maybe tonnage restrictions will help this, I dunno.

[Captain Stiffy]

They are just way too huge. They should by normal logic be 25-33% taller than the lights.

[FupDup]

I took a stab at the mech scales. Here is how it looks right now:


Here is my sloppy-draft of what it "should" be (sizes are not totally perfect, it's just to give you a general idea):

[aniviron]

Captain Stiffy, on 12 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

Right but there is such a thing as NFL teams that utterly get ROFLSTOMPED year after year because they can't put the players together that they need. There's just as large a meta in the NFL as in MWO.

I would point out a few things though- he's not saying there isn't a meta, but rather that it's a more balanced and interesting meta. The NFL doesn't have to balance "weapons" as well as weight class; in MWO, the balance of which weapons are boated changes, but with a few small exceptions no matter what it has always been roughly the same tonnage of mech on the field, with over half of all mechs played (often well over half) being between 65-90 tons. That pretty much never changes except for short periods when there is a major bug; and even as bad as hit detection on Spiders is right now, you still don't see very many of them on the field, even if they are drastically overrepresented in their weight class.

So what he wants is to give people a reason to WANT to play mediums, instead of forcing them to do so with tonnage limits. If you make tonnage limits, people are going to keep playing their current mechs, get fed up with longer wait times, and stop playing, or take a lighter mech that they don't want to play and get fed up with being forced to play a bad mech, and stop playing. A better solution is to make mediums good enough to play on their own merits; that would mean more players would drop in medium mechs, thus eliminating the need for tonnage limits altogether.

[YueFei]

Captain Stiffy, on 12 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

[size=4]

Right but there is such a thing as NFL teams that utterly get ROFLSTOMPED year after year because they can't put the players together that they need. There's just as large a meta in the NFL as in MWO.

That has nothing to do with my point. The NFL is not filled with only linemen types of bodies. Any team that tried to fill its entire roster with 300 pound linemen types would fail hard. You try covering those wide receivers, tight ends, and running backs like that and you're gonna give up a touchdown everytime your opponent gets the football.

In MWO, you *can* fill your team with a crapload of Assault and Heavy mechs, and a few token Light mechs, and expect to win. In general I believe this is because maps are too small, and the lack of real objectives.

If the NFL football field was only 30 feet wide instead of 160 feet wide, you'd see nothing but 300+ pound dudes... there simply wouldn't be enough room on the field for faster and more agile players to take advantage of their speed. It would also make football boring, one-dimensional, and completely strip it of most of its strategy and tactics.

[Deathlike]

YueFei, on 12 October 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

That has nothing to do with my point. The NFL is not filled with only linemen types of bodies. Any team that tried to fill its entire roster with 300 pound linemen types would fail hard. You try covering those wide receivers, tight ends, and running backs like that and you're gonna give up a touchdown everytime your opponent gets the football.

In MWO, you *can* fill your team with a crapload of Assault and Heavy mechs, and a few token Light mechs, and expect to win. In general I believe this is because maps are too small, and the lack of real objectives.

If the NFL football field was only 30 feet wide instead of 160 feet wide, you'd see nothing but 300+ pound dudes... there simply wouldn't be enough room on the field for faster and more agile players to take advantage of their speed. It would also make football boring, one-dimensional, and completely strip it of most of its strategy and tactics.

Speaking of which, I will be watching lots of football this Sunday, and much less of MWO for the day (will need to skip some of it to finish off the free 1 day premium time I have stored for a bit to end the Awesome run).

There is little to no role warfare, and I'm still waiting for this promised "UAV bonus" so that I don't keep losing 40k of C-bills that is only half of the average winnings in C-bills that PGI has stated.

[Captain Stiffy]

YueFei, on 12 October 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

That has nothing to do with my point. The NFL is not filled with only linemen types of bodies. Any team that tried to fill its entire roster with 300 pound linemen types would fail hard. You try covering those wide receivers, tight ends, and running backs like that and you're gonna give up a touchdown everytime your opponent gets the football.

In MWO, you *can* fill your team with a crapload of Assault and Heavy mechs, and a few token Light mechs, and expect to win. In general I believe this is because maps are too small, and the lack of real objectives.

If the NFL football field was only 30 feet wide instead of 160 feet wide, you'd see nothing but 300+ pound dudes... there simply wouldn't be enough room on the field for faster and more agile players to take advantage of their speed. It would also make football boring, one-dimensional, and completely strip it of most of its strategy and tactics.

I agree mostly and here's why: By far the best strategy for almost any team in assault mode is to base camp and when they other team decides to cross then send your lights to cap their base. Especially true with the large map sizes. In this case your best loadout would be 4 lights and 8 assault mechs.

I think the problem is the flawed game types and not really the mechs.

[YueFei]

Deathlike, on 12 October 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Speaking of which, I will be watching lots of football this Sunday, and much less of MWO for the day (will need to skip some of it to finish off the free 1 day premium time I have stored for a bit to end the Awesome run).

There is little to no role warfare, and I'm still waiting for this promised "UAV bonus" so that I don't keep losing 40k of C-bills that is only half of the average winnings in C-bills that PGI has stated.

Yeah I'll be watching football tomorrow, too, with a bunch of buddies at my house.

What "UAV bonus" did they promise? Is it supposed to make it cheaper? I've tried to using UAVs for some time now, and it rarely makes any kind of difference. Anybody know how to use it effectively? Mainly I run around until I see a crapload of stuff on Seismic, and then I throw it up right next to the enemy blob.

Captain Stiffy, on 12 October 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

I agree mostly and here's why: By far the best strategy for almost any team in assault mode is to base camp and when they other team decides to cross then send your lights to cap their base. Especially true with the large map sizes. In this case your best loadout would be 4 lights and 8 assault mechs.

I think the problem is the flawed game types and not really the mechs.

Yeah I think Assault is a stale gamemode, but actually I like Conquest mode alot. It forces you to go out and engage the enemy, to take and hold bases. It creates a tension between sticking together for mutual support, and spreading out enough to take enough territory. A team that tries to blob its way from one base to the next could be simply avoided, if your own scouts track them, your own force can just cap the other 4 points, and whichever one the enemy deathball advances on, you can retreat from and capture the one they vacated.

[Deathlike]

Captain Stiffy, on 12 October 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

I agree mostly and here's why: By far the best strategy for almost any team in assault mode is to base camp and when they other team decides to cross then send your lights to cap their base. Especially true with the large map sizes. In this case your best loadout would be 4 lights and 8 assault mechs.

I think the problem is the flawed game types and not really the mechs.

It is generally the mechs themselves.

The reason why many people advocate for engine buffs for mediums (increasing the engine cap, increasing accel/decel, increasing turning speeds) is because the speed cap itself is limiting their options.

A medium ideally is some sort jack of all trades... you could focus on power (current Hunchbacks) or focus on speed (Trebuchet) and possibly something in the middle.

Your "role" as a Hunchback is defined as a "heavy weapons platform" for a 50 tonner. If the engine caps were lifted, imagine the 9 small laser Hunchback being somewhat useful escorting other Lights. I'm not saying this is entirely viable or a great idea, but the "role warfare options" are very limited. Every mech in this game has a "role" defined by their hardpoints, engine options, and their scale/hitboxes. Once you install limits, you are limiting all the possible roles it can have. It is not necessarily a bad thing, but mediums are the most affected by this.

The only mediums that can reasonably accomplish a "light escort role" are Centurions (just absorbing damage), Kintaros (really high engine cap, usually Streak carriers), and Trebuchets (which are not even optimal due to scale and other issues). You could obviously use other mediums or even heavies to do this like the Quickdraw or Dragon, but the reality is that the options simply aren't there.

If you can't build it for a specific role, it's simply not a role you can use it for. It's that simple.

[Deathlike]

YueFei, on 12 October 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

What "UAV bonus" did they promise? Is it supposed to make it cheaper? I've tried to using UAVs for some time now, and it rarely makes any kind of difference. Anybody know how to use it effectively? Mainly I run around until I see a crapload of stuff on Seismic, and then I throw it up right next to the enemy blob.

I'm not sure how the UAV bonus will function. It might be as simple as "# of mechs spotted by UAV" = bonus. It's probably going to be bad.

I use it when it makes sense to use it since it eats into my rewards. In higher level play, there's a lot more ECM involved, and anything to help spot for your teammates in 12-mans allows them to do their job that much better (its not exactly a wallhack, but more of a limited form of old radar spotting in older MW games). It's great for blocking out the sun with Lurms, but that weapon can't always be used on some maps (Crimson Strait is definitely one of them). When it works... it works well.

[Captain Stiffy]

The only medium I use at all is the laserboat hunchback with 6 SL 3 ML and I don't really enjoy it because you aren't tough enough to brawl down a tiny light that can easily hit you and you don't have enough firepower to deter them.

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 12 October 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I'm not sure how the UAV bonus will function. It might be as simple as "# of mechs spotted by UAV" = bonus. It's probably going to be bad.

I use it when it makes sense to use it since it eats into my rewards. In higher level play, there's a lot more ECM involved, and anything to help spot for your teammates in 12-mans allows them to do their job that much better (its not exactly a wallhack, but more of a limited form of old radar spotting in older MW games). It's great for blocking out the sun with Lurms, but that weapon can't always be used on some maps (Crimson Strait is definitely one of them). When it works... it works well.

I'm really really surprised that the UAV works in higher-level play. I know I look at my radar at least once every few seconds out of my periphery if not directly, and, well, UAV shows up on radar. Once I know it's there, I just look up and shoot it. It exposes the whole team, but only for about 5 seconds. It's helpful, but not really worth 40k of helpful.

[monk]

I agree that the medium is really the jack of all trades, but also the master of none. There are some fun builds (I personally run my Kintaros almost exclusively and often am at or near the top of the scoreboard in a majority of matches), but when it comes down to it, you're not as fast as the true lights, and you're not as sturdy as the heavies and assaults. You basically have chosen a support role as a medium. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but not many players relish the idea of being a support player. I think mediums offer players the quickest path to failure. You have to play your role perfectly or one of two things happen: you die before things really get going, or you basically run about all match doing little of value.

Still, I like mediums. I choose them over most other types. From what I see, though, there aren't a lot of people like me.

[Kitane]

What makes medium mechs difficult to play? That they are being easy to hit with heavy firepower of heavies and assaults.

There are essentially three factors that affect this:

1) The medium mech size. This is the most frequently cited issue.
Problem: Even small medium mechs like BJs and Hunchbacks are very easy to hit. I believe that reducing the rest of medium mechs to the same size would have only minimal impact.

2) The medium mech speed. The speed is a bigger factor, a fast mech might be still easy to hit, but it's difficult to focus fire a specific part of the mech, allowing the mech to spread the damage more easily.
Problem: The existing engine ratings are within medium mech weight/rating sweetspots. Trying to mount bigger engines will quickly eat into their effective weapon loadouts.

3) The agility of a heavy/assault mech.
This is the least often mentioned part of the problem, yet it is still crucial to medium mech viability. A medium mech has no problem getting into flank position and fire that first salvo on a heavier mech. But the heavy mech can turn and return fire almost immediately.

There are two culprits that affect this:
- Engine rating linked with torso and turn twist speed.
- Pilot proficiencies: A fully unlocked mech has 20% more twist range, 40% faster twist speed and 20% faster turn speed. That significantly cuts down into the window of opportunity a medium mech created with his positioning.

Removing these would easily add an opportunity to fire one more salvo from the flanking position before the target could respond, or having more time to get back into cover, and that would go long way to improve the viability.

In my opinion we need to do all of these before medium mechs become really viable:
- Scaling down the models a little bit.
- Unlinking the torso twist speed from engine rating.
- Significantly nerfing pilot proficiencies. Instead of adding X % to the paper mech limits, the mech would start at default - Y%, and unlocking proficiencies would reduce the penalty until the fully unlocked mech matches its paper specs.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 13 October 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

I'm really really surprised that the UAV works in higher-level play. I know I look at my radar at least once every few seconds out of my periphery if not directly, and, well, UAV shows up on radar. Once I know it's there, I just look up and shoot it. It exposes the whole team, but only for about 5 seconds. It's helpful, but not really worth 40k of helpful.

It works... but you either have to distract or make sure it's somewhat hard to notice it was deployed.

You have to consider that many players don't look up often, with their limited torso vision, and not too many would get around to using their arm energy weapons to shoot at it...

While PUGing, people tend not to notice it, or tend to deploy it in the worst place possible. It's annoying when you know you have LRM boats on the field, and not know how to make the most of it.

Also, since the UAV spots all within its radius, you can gather some info and make better decisions on how to attack an opponent... if not just command for a simple push... in which the current blob tends to hang back to the detriment of the team.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 October 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Misadventure]

I think the option is more along the lines of advanced matchmaking. Perhaps something along the lines of multiple type of things you can que up for. They could make specifc cues just for medium mech matches, have grab bag cues for whatever pugging, have scout ques that sort of stuff. I think that could ensure that people still have fun and most of the mechs get used.

[Vassago Rain]

Misadventure, on 13 October 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I think the option is more along the lines of advanced matchmaking. Perhaps something along the lines of multiple type of things you can que up for. They could make specifc cues just for medium mech matches, have grab bag cues for whatever pugging, have scout ques that sort of stuff. I think that could ensure that people still have fun and most of the mechs get used.

Or they could make mediums actually useful.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Or they could make mediums actually useful.

How do you do that Vass? It is Medium weight, Medium Armor, Medium weapon load, Medium speed. It should by right excel at nothing It is even in the class name medium!!!

[KhanHeir]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 October 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

How do you do that Vass? It is Medium weight, Medium Armor, Medium weapon load, Medium speed. It should by right excel at nothing It is even in the class name medium!!!

Medium mech =//= Assault stature, heavy speed.