129 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Strum Wealh, on 13 October 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Though, how tall is the Quickdraw (again, preferably its "scalp height"), in meters?

Without knowing the actual height in meters, I would predict the Quickdraw (as a 60-ton upright humanoid) to be on the order of ~14.84 meters tall, with a ~5% variation allowing for heights up to ~15.58 meters to still fall within the realm of "arguably acceptable".

Likewise, the Shadow Hawk (as a 55-ton upright humanoid) would be predicted to be on the order of ~14.42 meters tall (or up to ~15.14 meters, given a ~5% variation), the Thunderbolt (as a 65-ton upright humanoid) would be predicted to be on the order of ~15.25 meters tall (or up to ~16.01 meters, given a ~5% variation), and the BattleMaster (as an 85-ton upright humanoid) would be predicted to be on the order of ~16.67 meters tall (or up to ~17.50 meters, given a ~5% variation).

It would be interesting to see the actual heights of the models, to see how close all of the above actually gets...

Canon values are X, where X is whatever random number they've decided on at the time, and it has no relevance for an online FPS shooter made in 2013, based around legacy rules for a tabletop game few people play, where you can totally headshot a robot from behind, even if the head is square center of the front torso.

Here is MWO's scaling.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 13 October 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Canon values are X, where X is whatever random number they've decided on at the time, and it has no relevance for an online FPS shooter made in 2013, based around legacy rules for a tabletop game few people play, where you can totally headshot a robot from behind, even if the head is square center of the front torso.

Here is MWO's scaling.

I've already seen charts like that one.

What I'm looking for is something more like this one, that give actual listings of the MWO BattleMechs' heights in meters.

The numbers I presented in my previous post are based on those I got from the second chart, and some mathematical scaling versus the Atlas (if you're interested, part of the derivation (which demonstrates that, with what data I have so far, it holds true for both MWO and canon/TT) is outlined here).

That is, my question is more along the lines of "how many meters tall is the MWO Quickdraw model (that is, the stat given by CryEngine) & how well does it fit what seems to be an established pattern, and how well will/does the same model predict the heights (again, in meters) of the MWO Shadow Hawk, MWO Thunderbolt, and MWO BattleMaster models?"

[Kenyon Burguess]

my own fault I suppose, I had convinced myself that due to the similar shoulder and cockit that it would use the hunchback frame as a build point so I spent my money on the shadowhawk. to see that it is as large as a 80 ton mech is really disheartening. I guess my 20 ton locust will match up to the stalker.

[Nik Reaper]

Alistair Winter, on 12 October 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

OMG, can't .... breathe....
dying of .... laughter ...

[Karyudo ds]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Canon values are X, where X is whatever random number they've decided on at the time, and it has no relevance for an online FPS shooter made in 2013, based around legacy rules for a tabletop game few people play, where you can totally headshot a robot from behind, even if the head is square center of the front torso.

And you could torso twist with no hips, punch with no arms, and if you were a Madcat, those suddenly weren't arms...etc. Really generic rules for a game with as much visual variation as it ended up with. I would swear the rulebook simply suggested everything was around 10 meters tall, which some of the imagery seemed to support.

Here we just have the Gundam dwarfing Atlas.

Geist Null, on 13 October 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

I guess my 20 ton locust will match up to the stalker.

It actually measures up to the things knee (or just over). Looks sorta silly but I guess it will be funny to see how many Locusts can hide behind an assault.

[Vassago Rain]

Strum Wealh, on 13 October 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I've already seen charts like that one.

What I'm looking for is something more like this one, that give actual listings of the MWO BattleMechs' heights in meters.

The numbers I presented in my previous post are based on those I got from the second chart, and some mathematical scaling versus the Atlas (if you're interested, part of the derivation (which demonstrates that, with what data I have so far, it holds true for both MWO and canon/TT) is outlined here).

That is, my question is more along the lines of "how many meters tall is the MWO Quickdraw model (that is, the stat given by CryEngine) & how well does it fit what seems to be an established pattern, and how well will/does the same model predict the heights (again, in meters) of the MWO Shadow Hawk, MWO Thunderbolt, and MWO BattleMaster models?"

Best I can do. The guy is about 180 centimeres. He matches up to the commando's head. Commandos are X dudelengths tall. Atlas is X commandolengths.

The closest I've seen them get to talk about meters and scaling decisions is Russ saying that quickdraws are '55 ton sized.' So maybe they have different dimensions they want their 'sizes' to fill, and the hawk is part of it.

I would say that there's a pattern, but then you look at hunchies versus cents, and both of them versus buckets, and compare those to shaq hawks on one side, and blackjacks on the other. So who knows.

Canon TT isn't canon TT. The rulebooks will list mechs as being '100 feet tall' in one instance, and 'roughly 15 meters' the next. Miniature size and dimension also varies greatly from release to release. The first plastic atlases look nothing like the metal 2008 variants.

Inb4 someone posts the silly, 30 year old one with a commando and tanks matched up next to a drop ship.



Here, have a connie with a commando on top. These were all made using the free cryengine SDK to stack crysis, MWO, and SC assets. No, it's not complicated or hacking. Yes, if you want to do something pretty, you'll have to know what you're doing.



I think PGI themselves made the above picture.

However, this whole discussion is pretty pointless. If it's canon, and PGI's intent that we must have huge mediums, then they need to reverse that, because they're worthless. If it's a mistake, they need to fix it. If canon dictates we must have gigantic robots that are worthless, then canon needs to be change, because - well - the robots are quite, quite worthless this way. Canon doesn't matter if you end up with a whole class of worthless robots - robots that cost time and money to develop. Robots that people pay money for. We used to be excited when we were getting mechs. Now it's always about the scaling wars threads.

Pretty bad, if you ask me.

[KingCobra]

Yes PGI messes up scaling among other things=movement-agility-weapons balance-YADA YADA YADA but look at the bright side your going to be the only ones owning these mechs before the end.

[Karyudo ds]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Here, have a connie with a commando on top. These were all made using the free cryengine SDK to stack crysis, MWO, and SC assets. No, it's not complicated or hacking. Yes, if you want to do something pretty, you'll have to know what you're doing.

Yeah I'd imagine the Crysis SDK to be pretty straight forward when you have a clue what you're doing but that picture I just find funny. Really sort of makes me wish we really could mash the games together like that in a way, or at least get more visuals like that in MWO (mechs in establishing shots etc I mean).

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

If it's a mistake, they need to fix it. If canon dictates we must have gigantic robots that are worthless, then canon needs to be change, because - well - the robots are quite, quite worthless this way. Canon doesn't matter if you end up with a whole class of worthless robots - robots that cost time and money to develop.

Exactly. It's not like we haven't had things changed around here already from Battletech anyway so a size pass would be nice. Time consuming maybe, but you want every class viable and I almost always used Mediums in MW4. Personally I love the Shadowhawk model, over-sized, but otherwise it looks great. Would love to be able to use it.

[Bagheera]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

We used to be excited when we were getting mechs. Now it's always about the scaling wars threads.

Pssst. Hey, PGI, are you listening?

[oldradagast]

Cementblade, on 12 October 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

Sweet i hope its head hitbox is big too

Probably. And then they'll say "it's a support mech. Don't play it anywhere near the front lines / opponents / weapons fire" Working as intended!

Mockeryangel, on 12 October 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

I just don't understand what the reasoning behind making the Shadowhawk so big is I mean surely they realise a medium needs to be smaller as it lacks the armour and firepower of heavies and assaults? Oohhhh that's it, there is no reasoning they just scale at random with no logic behind it.

There does seem to be a theme:

1) If it goes faster than others of its class, it must be huge and stupidly easy to destroy. Witness the Awesome, the Quickdraw, the Dragon (center torso.)

2) If it is a medium mech, it must be at least as large as a heavy mech with some silly excuse to justify it ("slender waist" "flat side profile") that doesn't help in actual game play. I bet they'd go back and up-size the Hunchback if that didn't take time and money!

Not saying these reasons make any sense since all they do is make sure certain mechs are not played, but that's the pattern.

Edited by oldradagast, 14 October 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[PropagandaWar]

Wispsy, on 12 October 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Tonnage limits is a worse fix then ghost heat. You are basically just assigning people to the role of cannon fodder. Who the **** wants to play as cannon fodder every game so the big manly assault pilot can come in and get his free kills? Every groups best players will be put in heavies and assaults and all the less good players will quit... If you tried to implement this in the solo queue then wait times for drops will be over an hour unless you pick a medium. People won't get "forced" into something...they will just leave.

man your high. Assaults tend to be the eassy kills in the game.

[Heffay]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

I think PGI themselves made the above picture.

I made that picture, not PGI. You can recognize the paint skin on the Dragon from my latest music parody:

Edited by Heffay, 14 October 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sean Lang, on 12 October 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Shadow Hawk - 55 Ton medium Battlemech:

Cool. Xando Parapasu will enjoy having his ride back in his Mechbay soon.

Quote

Size looks right here.

Quote

Pretty good here

Quote

Here too.

Quote

Good

Quote

Maybe just a little to big... Maybe.

Quote

To tall.

Quote

Awesome looks to small. We need a better perspective

[Vassago Rain]

Heffay, on 14 October 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

[/size]

I made that picture, not PGI. You can recognize the paint skin on the Dragon from my latest music parody:

Now all we need is some gangnam style.

[Wispsy]

PropagandaWar, on 14 October 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

man your high. Assaults tend to be the eassy kills in the game.

If they have zero clues on positioning and use a joystick to aim

[Dawnstealer]

WOW

Guess I won't be piloting that one too much (granted, my 55 tonner of choice is the Wolverine, but still...): that thing is MASSIVE.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

I am totally appalled at the size of this mech... And of TDR's size too...

Here is this wonderful post that contains ALL the logic, that PGI is so desperately MISSING when dealing with sizes.


http://mwomercs.com/...48#entry1710548

I'm wondering, why they didn't make all assaults the size of Commando, and all lights the size of Atlas? Their logic is not far from that anyway...

Why is it so hard to make size proportional to weight? So hard? Really? *headache*

Edited by Duncan Jr Fischer, 14 October 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Hellzero]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 October 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Cool. Xando Parapasu will enjoy having his ride back in his Mechbay soon.
Size looks right here.

Pretty good here

Here too.

Good

Maybe just a little to big... Maybe.

To tall.

Awesome looks to small. We need a better perspective

- Yes, thank you, very much this.
I will wait 'til I can see the proper dimensions face to face; the images/pictures don't do proper justice in a scale that is this large/big. The mechs are big in the game engine, which can distort the perception badly. It looks to be too tall, but it looks "decent in the first pictures":

I want to see it in the game, before passing the last judgement. The scale wars tend to get out of hand anyway, as does almost everything else these days. In canon the mechs vary in size, regardless of the tons. 50 ton mechs have high degree of varying heights between one-another.
- If a mech has the same tonnage/armor as the other, it doesn't mean they are cut from the same wood in height/width.
- Some of these are detailed in the ancient Tech Manuals, if anyone has even looked at them.

Hermes II, a medium mech with almost the armor of an heavy mech, would be a good example of this.
(Not intending to put any more gasoline to the fire, but just pointing out the obvious of the Tech Manuals from 80's, 90's, 00's).

Edited by Hellzero, 14 October 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Hellzero, on 14 October 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

- Yes, thank you, very much this.
I will wait 'til I can see the proper dimensions face to face; the images/pictures don't do proper justice in a scale that is this large/big. The mechs are big in the game engine, which can distort the perception badly. It looks to be too tall, but it looks "decent in the first pictures":

I want to see it in the game, before passing the last judgement. The scale wars tend to get out of hand anyway, as does almost everything else these days. In canon the mechs vary in size, regardless of the tons. 50 ton mechs have high degree of varying heights between one-another.
- If a mech has the same tonnage/armor as the other, it doesn't mean they are cut from the same wood in height/width.
- Some of these are detailed in the ancient Tech Manuals, if anyone has even looked at them.

Hermes II, a medium mech with almost the armor of an heavy mech, would be a good example of this.
(Not intending to put any more gasoline to the fire, but just pointing out the obvious of the Tech Manuals from 80's, 90's, 00's).

Shaq hawk is posed like a quickdraw, and moves like one.

[General Taskeen]

SHADOW HAWK IS HUGE