104 replies to this topic

[anonymous161]

Heres what I think, why dont they give this one to people for free? I mean they have never given us anything in this game yet, I dont count trial mechs since you cannot modify them. Why dont they give us at least one mech even if useless?? I know for a fact they have made bank with this game, if they dont want to lose even more players than they already have why not give us one either poopy mech like this, so we can sell it or just have it in our collection, or give us one good mech?

[ICEFANG13]

I think it should be completely removed. Although I want many things to be adjusted about the engine. Its not a give and take relationship, bigger is better, and its not evened out.

Engine HS should not be enough to keep all mechs cool. Putting HS on a mech should be worth the tons and slots (ie something like all engine HS are 1.5, and all external doubles are 2 and all singles are 1, or even 4/2). Right now, even heavy mechs get most of the cooling from the engine.

Why, if we kept the 2EDHS thing, are the extra external ones worse? Why should a 4MG mech with 1 Laser (and complete cooling) require external HS? This would be great if it was removed.

Extra turning bonuses from higher engines? Bah remove that too. Why limit the Locust in a way that it can't even control.

Everyone knew the Locust would be bad, but I didn't think this bad. Only build I think is really worth it is 5 SL and 190 STD engine to give it some survival, even though good pilots usually shoot the legs.

[OznerpaG]

FupDup, on 16 October 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

The Locust's speed advantage over the Jenner isn't nearly large enough to compensate for the Jenner's dramatically greater firepower, armor, and jumpjets. And now we've got Commandos and 2 Spider variants that can match the Locust's speed or even outrun it in the case of Commandos, while still being better protected and armed. A Locust can still kill things, but currently the only true role the Locust has is to be super-duper hardmode. Once I've finished grinding them to master (I payed for them after all so I might as well get my money's worth out of them), I probably won't even look at the poor little guy again. The effort:reward ratio is just way too low to make it worthwhile in the long run.


As for your example build, you stripped leg armor on a Locust. That's worse than stripping the right torso armor on a Hunchback. :\

smallest mechs should be able to go faster than any heavier mechs no matter what - it's only fair if it has less armour it should get a speed advantage. regardless of weapons loadout, for the game to be balanced you trade armour for speed and that's it - if a mech has less max armour it NEEDS to have the option to go faster than any mech with more armour.

if the max speed available in mwo is 170kph, then:
20t mechs should go a max of 170kph,
25t max 165kph
30t max 160kph
35t max 155kph
40t max 150kph
etc...

of course that's just the MAX for the fastest mech in that weight bracket - most mech's max speed will be slower than it's weight's max potential. in any case the Death's Knell's max should only be 165kph, and the fastest spiders 160kph. this should give the locust at least ONE tiny advantage over every other mech

Edited by JagdFlanker, 16 October 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[FupDup]

JagdFlanker, on 16 October 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

smallest mechs should be able to go faster than any heavier mechs no matter what - it's only fair if it has less armour it should get a speed advantage.
-snip-

I totally agree with this notion, I was just saying that the Locust currently does not get any advantages for the sacrifices it makes. Personally though I think the Locust could stand to go above 170 kph just to help it out a bit more.

[MonkeyCheese]

JagdFlanker, on 16 October 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

if the max speed available in mwo is 170kph, then:
20t mechs should go a max of 170kph,
25t max 165kph
30t max 160kph
35t max 155kph
40t max 150kph
etc...

This please

[Zuesacoatl]

Honestly, stop whining. The required 10 sinks is from TT, it is a BTech/Mechwarrior title after all, and something will just remain just because they make it BTech/Mechwarrior, and mech creation and its rules will always be a big part of that. Secondly, I run my locust, 1LL is all I need to rack up 300+ points with the biggest XL engine I can load and DHS. Hide behind your behemoths until the enemy shows themselves, they focus the big guy cause he is scary looking, and you float around and add more dmg and drop him... Not only do I do that in my locust, when piloting my BLARG, I have seen many locusts sit under my feet until I am engaged with the op-for, and they go about picking them apart as I expose great swaths of damage.

if you can not run a 20t mech with the restraints given to ALL, then swap up to a bigger mech...Stop whining about things that should not be fixed. Let the devs focus on more important things, almost everything is well above this whine, even cockpit items rank higher on the list. The locust is a Niche mech, if you can not fit in that niche, or enjoy trying to fit, than pls, play another mech, do not bring your whines and horrible reasoning's as to why they should cater to you here.

I hate to be such a Cameron, but for the love of pete, do as the rest of us do, learn to get better at what you want to do, or move on. When I stated MWO in closed beta, I was doing 57-200dmg/match, and was gang ***** CONSTANTLY. Now I average no less than 450, with most recent games sitting above 670. This happened cause I practiced and got better, try to increase your skills with more practice, and less forum warrioring for game adjustments to make you look better.

[The Ratfink]

I've had fun with this, all fits

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1d0897463597ce6

Edited by The Ratfink, 17 October 2013 - 02:40 AM.

[Ravihn]

This problem is not as simple as just locust needs more tonnage to play with or lrn2 locust or LIGHTS NEED MOAR SPEEEEEEED.

The locust just shows us a symptom of a bigger problem. Lights, lights are the problem. Russ and the PGI crew have stated that MWO needs to evolve the way mech combat has always been done. Which is 100% right. In this game its intended that a good light player = good assault player, and the mechs need to reflect that as well. That being said lights are not equal to assaults or heavies or mediums.

Lights are the problem here and there are a few key points as to why.
-Questionable Design choices
-Game modes do not support light play ( aside from capping which... everyone hates )
- Poor Weapon Choices. (Example. No ballistic choices)
- Weapons force lights to stick to a target and brawl and not hit and run and play objectives. ( hence why SSRMS SRMS and Pulses are good on lights they promote light combat as it should be hit and run )

These are just off the top of my head but just think a bit about these. TT may be grand and all but look at even the design behind lights. You dont mount the same engines and weaponry in hummers as you do in tanks. Why are lights forced to use the same rules? Nobody wants AC 10s in lights. What we need is light striking weapons. A ballistic pulse laser if you will. Rough idea would be a burst fire gun that shoots 2 Ac 2 rounds for 4 damage has a range of 200 max range of 600 and has a I dunno 8 second reload. So you hit them and get away. A weapon like that would force you to play as intended. Not stick next to an atlas chipping at him with lasers and MGs... Which is why the Raven 3L was king. Pulse lasers and streaks. You run in like a boss and leave. Now TT has some weapons that can fill these needs but they are 10 years down the line, and lights also need a little something more and maybe some actual interesting choices like we have with lasers once we get ERs.

The tweaks we got in the form of bigger engines is a poorly designed idea, just as it was with mediums. Give them bigger engine caps! So they can what... go faster and do less damage and feel like... lights? SPLENDID! Now we have two classes of mechs with identity issues.

The tiered ideas about speed from JagdFlanker are solid and I think the same could and should go for armor even within the same tier. Look at the raven 3L vs the 2X. The 2X logically would be slower because it has more armor and more weapons, but in this game the 3L has its speed and its armor. They should look at what TT was trying to do with the variants and what they themselves so nearly had. Something much like mech commander 1 although less simplified.

In terms of speed. I know a lot of you would love 225 kph speeds and all that but I don't think MWO will go much faster. Also 225 kph isn't going to save lights. 150 feels rather fast and 170 is right quick, but some of you crazy light pilots like me have noticed it gets harder and harder to drive as speeds go up. Team mates leg you because they cant see you coming and change fire patterns in time. You leg yourself on terrain the faster you go. When collisions come back... a lot of us are going to quit playing lights for awhile. The solution isn't speed = success. Speed has ended me many times.

I know I am bouncing around I am tired and cant focus to save my life, but I think lights are where they are especially the 20-30 ton lights is because they game doesn't have an identity for them yet. As well as design decisions that are trying to hide that fact. I am not laying the blame anywhere, and PGI has made decisions that make me sad at times, byt this has existed since mechs have come to videogame format. PGI has done more for light mechs and mediums for that matter than any game yet. So the idea is to get people to understand the real problem, and get the game where we all want it to be.

TLDR
-Lights need a design pass
-The game needs modes and maps to accommodate medium and light mech needs.
-Fitting lights under 30 tons is a chore and lacks any real diversity.
-Give lights weapons that promote light play and give interesting options.
-Variants in mechs should bring variety not just hard points if the engine cap is smaller that mech has a higher max armor cap. Its backwards that the only place you sacrifice for speed is weapons. Nobody strips armor and you never have to.
-Lights dont have a role. Electronic warfare is a crude mock up. Scouting has no purpose.
-All symptoms above force lights to do what they shouldn't and that is brawl.

Edited: because I dont make sense and cant spell.

Edited by Ravihn, 17 October 2013 - 04:20 AM.

[Zuesacoatl]

Again, I do fine in the locust, why, because i know it is a 20 TON mech for petes sake. If you want to take an assault head on, then get a mech that can do it. Hell, I can take out 2 or three Atlai in one match with my YLW, especially if the pilots blow. Head to head, my fresh YLW against an Atlas, with a decent pilot, I will take my YLW. But i know how to kill an atlas, I learned how.

But that does not translate over to a 20 TON mech. 20. TWO ZERO, TWENTY. I can not say it any clearer than that. It is about tons. Horrible light pilots scream that they want to be on even footing with Assaults, but when they are subjected to the same rules, they cry foul, why, read the first two words in this sentence. Rules do not change from one class to another when it comes to the frame work of building mechs. Mechs are not jeeps, nor Hummers, like tanks are not Hummers. They use different power plants, if you subjected a hummer to tank power plants, the hummer would be a far stronger contender, but limited because of the power plant it fields. lights use the same power plants as the Meds, Heavies, and assaults because they need the juice to power the multi-megajoules weapons they field. They need the 10 sinks to not only cool the weapons they use, but to cool the fusion engine buried in its belly. Get over, work with it, or move to a different chassis.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ravihn, on 17 October 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

This problem is not as simple as just locust needs more tonnage to play with or lrn2 locust or LIGHTS NEED MOAR SPEEEEEEED.

The locust just shows us a symptom of a bigger problem. Lights, lights are the problem. Russ and the PGI crew have stated that MWO needs to evolve the way mech combat has always been done. Which is 100% right. In this game its intended that a good light player = good assault player, and the mechs need to reflect that as well. That being said lights are not equal to assaults or heavies or mediums.

BUT a Good Light Mech cannot equal a good Assault Mech. By this I mean a good Assault Mech carries nearly as much mass in armor and weapons as a Light does total. An Atlas can carry an AC20 and 2PPCs And still have 19.5 tons of armor. Thus a good light player will have to work harder than a good Assault player to get the kill.

[Ravihn]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 October 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

BUT a Good Light Mech cannot equal a good Assault Mech. By this I mean a good Assault Mech carries nearly as much mass in armor and weapons as a Light does total. An Atlas can carry an AC20 and 2PPCs And still have 19.5 tons of armor. Thus a good light player will have to work harder than a good Assault player to get the kill.

I totally agree with you that they dont, I believe I said so as well but I tend to not make sense the more I type. But you are still looking at the situation in a narrowed field. That's to be expected though because you are looking at it from the perspective of whats present, and whats present is the definition of an assault mechs job. Survive and kill stuff. When light's become fully realized and the game more fleshed out. I think lights truly will be equal to assaults.

If anything I think the devs will have an even more difficult task in objective based game play, keeping the assaults relevant as the game shifts from pure mech murder. Look at conquest alpine and you get a taste of it.

to Zuesacotl. I am not good at forums so I fubared how to quote respond things good.

If you really look at it though light vs assault the effort on the pilots is somewhat equal. The light is zig zagging for his life in a one on one and the assault is faky turning his *** off to get those shots and not expose that sweet back armor. Now depending on who deserves that kill more or whom should win by default is really opinion based but in a video game environment they should have equal footing to kill one another the advantage goes to the assault however and rightfully so in that it takes him ages to die and he has more firepower giving his team the opportunity to murder you if you are dumb enough to stick around. I am not advocating lights be able to do what assaults do and have their speed and cake and things. I am only advocating a non rock paper scissors playstyle and more of a bring what you do best and get rewarded as you deserve for it, and give lights the same interesting build options as assaults in terms of weaponry decisions and whatnot. Not give lights assault dmg etc.

Edited by Ravihn, 17 October 2013 - 04:15 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ravihn, would you expect a Bantamweight fighter to be able to beat/be a match or a Heavyweight?
How about a Bradley Combat Vehicle v an Abrahms MBT?

Sure there should be a chance but it should be somewhere between slim and none. And that is with all things being equal. Max armor, ma payload, max speed, elite pilots. Due to its endurance an Assault should nearly always win.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 October 2013 - 04:08 AM.

[Ravihn]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 October 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

Ravihn, would you expect a Bantamweight fighter to be able to beat/be a match or a Heavyweight?
How about a Bradley Combat Vehicle v an Abrahms MBT?

Sure there should be a chance but it should be somewhere between slim and none. And that is with all things being equal. Max armor, ma payload, max speed, elite pilots. Due to its endurance an Assault should nearly always win.

Lets take the boxers route because that I can draw a better picture with that. Lets take... Chuck Norris in his prime or Bruce Lee and pit them against I dunno an amazing heavy weight fighter hhhmmm Foreman or Ali. Who would win? Here you have equally skilled at what they do fighters. Now Lee and Norris were some of the fastest and most effective martial arts fighters of their day, and I know nothing of boxing champions but I do know boxers hit like trains and also have crazy endurance. As a martial artist of 13 years I can say its a even draw of who gets surprised by who and who brings it that day. Either way I would pay money to see such a fight.

In MWO I think thats how the game should play. Much like tf2 or some other classed based PvP game speedy guys can fight heavy hitters and they both can come out on top. Its all about who has the experience and the tactics.

Mind this is all in a 1v1 situation, the assaults advantages come in to play when its 12 v 12. This is also why I never advocate trying to 1v1 an assault in a normal game because as a light pilot you are doing it wrong if you do, and that is simply in the 4 minutes it takes you to bring down that assault provided he hasn't popped you once or twice anyone else that sees you, or half the time your own team that tries to help will shoot you and make you feel right dumb for trying.

The same can happen to the assault too if he is on your cap trying to shoot you and you whiz around and your team eventually shows. He is right borked.

Which comes full circle to it being whomever has the right experience tactics and situation deserves the win, not armor or speed, those are just means to facilitate those tactics and whatnot.

Edited by Ravihn, 17 October 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[FerretGR]

wintersborn, on 15 October 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

There is no reason to use the mech over a spider other than looks, period!

Spider can't do 3-4 SSRMs.

ETA: as for the topic at hand, I know it might open up a can of worms, but why not let DHS be used to meet the 10HS requirement? I mean, if 5 DHS are equivalent to 10 SHS, why can't 5 DHS in the engine meet the requirements for cooling? Seems to make logical sense in terms of what we would expect from the physical reality of the HS, in an apart-from-CBT-rules sense, you know?

Edited by FerretGR, 17 October 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[Snowcrow]

The 10 heat sink requirement doesn't add any strategy to the game. All it does is punish very light mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ravihn, on 17 October 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Lets take the boxers route because that I can draw a better picture with that. Lets take... Chuck Norris in his prime or Bruce Lee and pit them against I dunno an amazing heavy weight fighter hhhmmm Foreman or Ali. Who would win? Here you have equally skilled at what they do fighters. Now Lee and Norris were some of the fastest and most effective martial arts fighters of their day, and I know nothing of boxing champions but I do know boxers hit like trains and also have crazy endurance. As a martial artist of 13 years I can say its a even draw of who gets surprised by who and who brings it that day. Either way I would pay money to see such a fight.

I'll take this also. Chuck v Foreman would be a good fight, but you are talking about Apples and Oranges, Chuck is coming into the fight with 4 weapons v George's 2.

Bruce OTOH is in a league of his own and cannot be matched. But his system does have a bit more in common with boxing than Traditional Martial Arts. I have 2-3 years of study in Wing Chun Do and frankly WCD is bringing a rifle regiment to a knife fight.

Snowcrow, on 17 October 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

The 10 heat sink requirement doesn't add any strategy to the game. All it does is punish very light mechs.

Hasn't punished them for 30 years so why is it a punishment now???

[Snowcrow]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 October 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Hasn't punished them for 30 years so why is it a punishment now???

While most light mechs do fine, it does severely limit the possible builds on a few mechs.
This is a build I really wanted to run, but I can't because of the heat sink requirement.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2b0ec8ab28bb95d
Even though it runs really cool. 70% cooling efficiency.
I have to replace it with a medium laser to fit all the heat sinks I need.
Lowering or removing the heat sink requirement would give more options to mechs like the locust 1V.
The heat sink requirement doesn't add any depth to the game. All it does is limit the possible builds on very light mechs.
I'm not saying it's a massive issue that is destroying 20 tonners, but I don't see the point of this requirement, especially since removing it would result in more variety on the battlefield.

Edited by Snowcrow, 18 October 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[Aurien Titus]

Sure as long as they add in all those missing tons on those smaller engines. So an XL 190 would weigh 9 tons instead of 6. An XL 145 would weight 7.5 tons instead of 2.5 tons and so on. Really not sure why lights don't need to follow the same build rules as all the other 'mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 15 October 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Just make it so the base 10 required sinks are all built into the engine, so this tiny little guy won't be unfairly taxed of crit slots just because he's already weak.

I have gotten the required 10 sinks in my Locust design, Just like I have since the late 80's!

Snowcrow, on 18 October 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

While most light mechs do fine, it does severely limit the possible builds on a few mechs.
This is a build I really wanted to run, but I can't because of the heat sink requirement.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2b0ec8ab28bb95d
Even though it runs really cool. 70% cooling efficiency.
I have to replace it with a medium laser to fit all the heat sinks I need.
Lowering or removing the heat sink requirement would give more options to mechs like the locust 1V.
The heat sink requirement doesn't add any depth to the game. All it does is limit the possible builds on very light mechs.
I'm not saying it's a massive issue that is destroying 20 tonners, but I don't see the point of this requirement, especially since removing it would result in more variety on the battlefield.

Sorry man its not in the rules. Not to mention that Weapon hard points are more restrictive than mandatory weightless Heat sinks.

[ICEFANG13]

TT is mostly out the window already. Everything is just not quite right or worse. Asking for the Locust to not need the 10 HS is not an attempt to break the old rules (although it does), just trying to buff the absolute worst mech in the game.