143 replies to this topic

[101011]

Warning: Long read, and there is no TL; DR.

How to ‘balance’ Clan weaponry in MW:O

First, let me preface this by saying that I believe, with many others, that Clan weapons cannot be left as they were in TT; vast improvements in every way but heat. While this makes sense from a lore perspective (sort of), it is absolutely abhorrent in a game such as this.
Having established that fact, I will begin by looking at the two cultures. The Inner Sphere is a chaotic feudal mess of constant warfare between several factions. Their wars are so fierce that they have quite literally blown themselves back to the ‘stone age’ in regards to weapons development. From centuries of brutal warfare, they will fight to win, no matter what they have to do. Now the Clans were sheltered from the Succession Wars, along with their technology. They have had several centuries to improve upon the designs with little to no risk of their destruction as happened in the IS. As such, we must come to the understanding that their weaponry must, if we stay true to Battletech, be superior. However, because of the way that the Clans were developed, their warfare is strictly controlled by rules and mentalities. It is the rare Clan Warrior who even considers a Death from Above, for instance.
It is also a fact that zellbrigen would be immensely difficult to implement, and, while optimal for a true BT experience, it is unnecessary. (That’s what lobbies are/will be for) So that leaves us with only one option; changing the tech. Some have suggested mixtech, that is, allowing the two tech bases (Clan and IS) to be compatible. This is one of the more extreme ways of breaking lore. Remember, Clan weapons are basically what the IS has, but about 200 years more developed. That would be similar to saying that you should be able to plug your keyboard into a typewriter. They’re the same, yes, but they’re also different. Just look at how car design has changed in the past fifty years, let alone 200. Can you expect all their parts to be compatible? No.
Therefore, we must go straight to the actual weaponry (the fun stuff). For sake of readability, I have included each weapon class in their own labeled spoiler. (All MW:O stats found via Smurfy, BT via Sarna)

Energy – The Clans developed combat all around the concept of a one v. one duel, no others involved. Therefore, damage would be highly important to them, so we can expect higher damage values. Now, we could just go with the oft-used advice of “don’t change anything but damage/range/heat”, but that’s no fun now, is it? Let’s take a look at recharge times – basically, they’re limiting how much damage is done. It would make sense that, given two hundred years, genetically bred scientists would be able to figure out how to make a laser that can be sustained as long as it doesn’t overheat, that is, a constant beam, allowing a skilled pilot to maximize damage. In a duel, you don’t have to worry about shutting down nearly as much as you must worry about putting the other guy down first, prioritizing damage (this was already seen in TT with higher heat). Bold are MW:O, non are new.

Spoiler

All stats given as: Damage (DPS); Heat (HPS); Duration (Time between ticks in seconds); Cooldown; Max Range; Slots; Tons; HP
ERLL – 9 (2.12); 8.5 (2); 1.00; 3.25; 1350; 2; 5; 10
CERLL – 2.5(2.5); 3(3); N/A (1); N/A; 1500; 1; 4; 5
ML – 5 (1.25); 4 (1.00); 1; 3; 540; 1; 1; 10
CERML – 1.75(1.75); 2.25 (2.25); N/A (1); N/A; 900; 1; 1; 10
SL – 3 (1); 2 (0.67); 0.75; 2.25; 180; 1; 0.5; 10
CERSL – 1(1); 1.5(1.5); N/A (1); N/A; 360; 1; 0.5; 10
LPL – 10.60 (2.75); 8.5 (2.21); 0.6; 3.25; 600; 2; 7; 10
CLPL – 2.5 (5); 3.5 (7); N/A (0.5); N/A; 1200; 2; 6; 10
MPL – 6 (1.67); 5 (1.39); 0.6; 3; 360; 1; 2; 10
CMPL – 1.75 (3.5); 2.25 (5.5); N/A (0.5); N/A; 720; 1; 2; 10
SPL – 3.40 (1.24); 2.40 (0.87); 0.5; 2.25; 180; 1; 1; 10
CSPL – 0.75 (1.5); 1.25 (2.5); N/A (0.5); N/A; 360; 1; 1; 10
ERPPC – 10 (2.5); 15 (3.75); N/A; 4; 1620; 3; 7; 10
CERPPC – 15 (2.142); 20 (2.85); N/A; 7; 1620; 2; 6; 6
Flamer – No changes

Ballistic – the biggie. The one that could, if implemented incorrectly, ruin the balance utterly and totally. Home of the dreaded UAC/20. Luckily, there are several solutions to this. The first would be the aforementioned duelist mentality. These guys aren’t going into a warzone, they’re fighting one on one, and so less ammo is required, allowing larger shells. Of course, they’re so much smaller than the IS that they’ll still be a problem. Without going to such extremes as reworking the entire AC system, it becomes a bit more dependent upon the numbers. CUAC’s would be more prone to jamming due to the lower amount of clearance, as well as producing less force to drive the shell (resulting in them having 2x range instead of 3x), generating more heat as they fired faster.

Spoiler

All stats given as: Damage (DPS); Heat (HPS); Ammo/ton; Cooldown; Max Range; Speed; Slots; Tons; HP
AC/2 - 2 (3.85); 1 (1.92); 75; 0.52; 2160; 2000; 1; 6; 10
CUAC/2 – 2 (4+); 1 (2+); 40; 0.5; 1440; 1900; 2; 5; 6
LB-X/2 – 2 (4); 1 (2); 45; 0.5; 2700; 2000; 3; 5; 10
AC/5 – 5 (3.33); 1 (0.67); 30; 1.5; 1700; 1300; 4; 8; 10
UAC/5 – 5 (3.33+); 1 (0.67+); 30; 1.5; 1800; 1300; 5; 9; 10
CUAC/5 – 5 (5+); 2.5 (2.5+); 20; 1; 1200; 1250; 3; 7; 6
LB-X/5 – 5 (5); 1 (1); 20; 1; 2160; 1300; 4; 7; 10
AC/10 – 10 (4); 3 (1.2); 15; 2.5; 1350; 1100; 7; 12; 10
CUAC/10 – 10 (5+); 5 (2.5+); 10; 2; 900; 900; 4; 10; 5
LB-X/10 – 10 (4); 2 (0.8); 15; 2.5; 1620; 1100; 6; 11; 10
AC/20 – 20 (5); 6 (1.5); 7; 4; 810; 900; 10; 14; 18
CUAC/20 – 20 (5.71+); 10 (2.86+); 5; 3.5; 540; 600; 8; 12; 12
LB-X/20 – 20 (5); 6 (1.5); 5; 4; 1080; 900; 9; 12; 16
Gauss Rifle – Unchanged
Machine Gun - Unchanged

Missiles, yet another problematic group. In TT, superior in every way to IS missile launchers. Half the weight, equal damage, same range, no minimum range. This means that LRMs arm in the launcher itself, delaying firing by 1.5 seconds, meaning that as an IS missile takes 180 meters to arm itself, or, doing some fancy math (180/120), 1.5 seconds to arm, a Clan missile arms itself before launching. During this period, following front-loaded rules, the missiles would be susceptible to damage (a toggle between arm-on-load or arm-on-fire, maybe?). SRM’s would be a bit easier to fix: just lower their range a bit to account for the lost weight/size. SSRMS are the real problem; up to 12 points of instant, guaranteed damage. They would suffer from the same problems as the SRMs, that of limited propulsion, and perhaps, upon their section taking damage ≥ 2, a momentary period of inability to lock, determined randomly (say, 1/10 chance).

Spoiler

All stats given as: Damage (DPS); Heat (HPS); Ammo/ton; Cooldown/ Cooldown + Arming; Max Range; Speed; Slots; Tons; HP
SRM 2 – 4 (1.6); 2 (0.8); 100; 2.5; 270; 300; 1; 1; 10
CSRM 2 – 4 (1.6); 2 (0.8); 100; 2.5; 180; 1; 0.5; 10
SSRM 2 – 5 (1.43); 2 (0.57); 100; 3.5; 270; 1; 1.5; 10
CSSRM 2 – 5 (1.43); 2 (0.57); 100; 3.5; 180; 1; 1; 10
SRM 4 – 8 (2.46); 3 (0.92); 100; 3.25; 270; 1; 2; 10
CSRM 4 – 8 (2.46); 3 (0.92); 100; 3.25; 180; 1; 1; 10
CSSRM 4 – 8 (1.78); 3 (0.71); 100; 4.25; 180; 1; 2; 10
SRM 6 – 12 (3); 4 (1); 100; 4; 270; 2; 3; 10
CSRM 6 – 12 (3); 4 (1); 100; 4; 180; 1; 1.5; 5
CSSRM 6 – 12 (2.4); 4 (0.8); 100; 5; 180; 2; 3; 10
LRM-5 – 5.5 (1.69); 2 (0.62); 180; 3.25; 1; 2; 10
CLRM-5 – 5.5 (1.29); 2 (0.47); 180; 4.25; 1; 1; 10
LRM-10 – 11 (2.93); 4 (1.07); 180; 3.75; 2; 5; 10
CLRM-10 – 11 (2.31); 4 (0.84); 180; 4.75; 1; 2.5; 5
LRM-15 – 16.5 (3.88); 5 (1.18); 180; 4.25; 3; 7; 10
CLRM-15 – 16.5 (3.14); 5 (0.95); 180; 5.25; 2; 3.5; 6
LRM-20 – 22 (4.63); 6 (1.26); 180; 4.75; 5; 10; 10
CLRM-20 – 22 (3.83); 6 (1.04); 180; 5.75; 4; 5; 8

The goal was to have Clan weapons be distinct from IS weapons, yet not be overpowered, to each base to have advantages. IS energy weapons have lower heat, but Clan weapons fire faster and with more damage for shorter periods, though with damage more spread out, promoting weapon accuracy. IS ballistic weapons are larger, but also shoot further while carrying more ammo and with more health compared to the Clan weapons, which can potentially deal more damage in a smaller package, yet have less ammo and health with shorter range. IS missiles are more suited to mid-range fighting, with longer ranges and faster recharge times, while Clan missiles have a shorter ranges and slower recharge times with more vulnerability in return for less weight. I realize my numbers are probably wrong, and I used the very simplest of methods to calculate them, but I hope I convinced you (if you needed it) that you can balance Clan weapons without directly nerfing their range/damage/heat.

[CyclonerM]

The key is nerfing how weapons work, not their numbers.
For example: we know Clanners fight in duels, so they usually have clear LoS with the enemy. Their LRMs, then, do not need a very high flying path to hit opponents behind buildings or other obstacles. You make LRMs launchers better but they fire straight, almost horizontally.
Thoughts?

[CrashieJ]

CyclonerM, on 01 November 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

The key is nerfing how weapons work, not their numbers.

the problem is for MWO's sake, it part "how weapons work" and also "how the game is played"

IS vs CLANS was never supposed to be balanced "numbers" wise due to the fact Clanners were always supposed to be outnumbered against IS forces 12 v 10 or something along those lines to offset their technological superiority.

I really hate to say this but the only way to make them balanced is to tip the scale away and make them unbalanced.

[CyclonerM]

gavilatius, on 01 November 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

the problem is for MWO's sake, it part "how weapons work" and also "how the game is played"

IS vs CLANS was never supposed to be balanced "numbers" wise due to the fact Clanners were always supposed to be outnumbered against IS forces 12 v 10 or something along those lines to offset their technological superiority.

I really hate to say this but the only way to make them balanced is to tip the scale away and make them unbalanced.

I always thought that we can balance the tech and 'mechs fairly well without -completely- rewrite the stats.
-12vs10
-Omnihardpoints baanced by lack of internals customization
-Slighly better heat sinks instead of MUCH better -OR- true Clan DHS and more heat produced by Clan weapons
-Ghost Heat (Homeless Bill's targeting computer anyone? Still think it was a far better idea).
-Clan weapons produce more heat and have same damage, but greater range and reduced beam duration.
-NO mixtech (with due exceptions, most notably Wolf's Dragoons and maybe the highest-ranking loyalists)

Omnimechs shall be more unique than IS Battlemechs (in MWO). Zellbrigen is too hard to enforce.

Edited by CyclonerM, 01 November 2013 - 04:22 AM.

[Finestaut]

There are a few terrible things that must be avoided at all costs.

1: IS exodus. If clan tech is acknowledged as significantly better than IS tech, the IS players will migrate en masse to the clan tech. This will marginalize most of the IS content, which would be a huge shame.

2: The Ultimate Omnimech. If one omnimech is capable of fitting a game-breaking combination of weapons, it will marginalize most of the IS content, AND most of the other Clan content, which would be a huge shame.

3: The Urbanmech Scenario. If one, or several omnimechs is unable to be fit in a way that plays well in MWO, it will forever be doomed to the status of bobblehead and fanart. For fans of this 'mech, it would be dark times indeed.

CyclonerM, on 01 November 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

I always thought that we can balance the tech and 'mechs fairly well without -completely- rewrite the stats.
-12vs10
-Omnihardpoints baanced by lack of internals customization
-Slighly better heat sinks instead of MUCH better -OR- true Clan DHS and more heat produced by Clan weapons
-Ghost Heat (Homeless Bill's targeting computer anyone? Still think it was a far better idea).
-Clan weapons produce more heat and have same damage, but greater range and reduced beam duration.
-NO mixtech (with due exceptions, most notably Wolf's Dragoons and maybe the highest-ranking loyalists)

I'm afraid 12v10 doesn't accomplish any balance goals. 12v10 acknowledges that clan tech is better. This puts us into Terrible Thing 1. Bad times.

I think it's fair to assume clan heat sinks won't throw the world into a tizzy. Doubles have significantly diminishing returns already, and most of the work is done by the 10 engine sinks. I'm not too worried about clan DHS throwing everything off.

Ghost heat hasn't completely solved all of the balance edge cases. It works in tandem with the hardpoint system to close some of the bigger balance problems, but it's not a comprehensive balance solution by itself. Without hardpoints to limit weapon combinations, it's simply insufficient, and puts us into Terrible Thing 2. Locked internals, specifically engines and armor, renders the Kit Fox, Loki, and Cougar into slow, vulnerable deathtraps, Terrible Thing 3.

Greater range and reduced beam duration means Clan damage is more bursty and front loaded. Same damage + more heat also makes it more bursty, because clan weapons are lighter, and lighter means you can take more of them. This is dangerous ground to tread on, bordering on being Terrible Thing 1 but may be acceptable.

I think limiting mixtech is a mistake. If mixtech is bad, it can only be because Clan tech is really good. If Clan tech is really good, then we're back at Terrible Thing 1. If the balance situation wouldn't be broken by mixtech, then no one can claim Clan tech is too good, and Terrible Thing 1 is averted.

CyclonerM, on 01 November 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

Omnimechs shall be more unique than IS Battlemechs (in MWO).

Can you clarify what you mean by that? Omni hardpoints allow for nearly limitless weapon combinations, and requires far fewer trade offs when building. You don't have to worry about a chassis' inherent weapon symmetry or the distribution of hardpoints across arms and torsos. The increased freedom, and inability to change underlying structures, actually will make most omnimechs quite samey.

Edited by Finestaut, 01 November 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Finestaut, on 01 November 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

I'm afraid 12v10 doesn't accomplish any balance goals. 12v10 acknowledges that clan tech is better. This puts us into Terrible Thing 1. Bad times.

I accept that it might give this impression, but it would be a logical decision. Clanners are organized in Stars of Five 'Mechs and i would be disappointed if this was not kept in MWO. If it may help a bit achieving the balance is a bonus

Finestaut, on 01 November 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

I think limiting mixtech is a mistake. If mixtech is bad, it can only be because Clan tech is really good. If Clan tech is really good, then we're back at Terrible Thing 1. If the balance situation wouldn't be broken by mixtech, then no one can claim Clan tech is too good, and Terrible Thing 1 is averted.

If you make Clan tech exactly the same as IS tech, you are doing it wrong because it would not help making the game different and fresh.

Finestaut, on 01 November 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Can you clarify what you mean by that? Omni hardpoints allow for nearly limitless weapon combinations, and requires far fewer trade offs when building. You don't have to worry about a chassis' inherent weapon symmetry or the distribution of hardpoints across arms and torsos. The increased freedom, and inability to change underlying structures, actually will make most omnimechs quite samey.

Sure, i will be more than willing to clarify! BattleMechs are supposed to be more unique because they have stock variants which have fixed weapons. Engine, armor and weapons can be changed but it is neither simple nor fast and cannot be done to adapt to a new war scenario or a particular mission (some changes may take even a month). So it is safe to assume that they are usually used with stock variants.
On the other hand, Omnimechs are able to switch weapon pods quickly to adapt to a mission or the preferences of the pilot, at expense of customization of the internals which are hard-wired into the chassis.

In MWO you can change everything with no time. You will agree that they are even more customizable than Omnimechs. Yes, omnimechs have Omni-hardpoints but they are a minor advantage when IS 'Mechs have hardpoints which can fit any weapon of the same type with no difficulties. You can fit a Gauss rifle on a light 'Mech because there are no size restrictions.

So it is safe to assume that IS Battlemechs are only collections of hardpoints since you can fit almost every weapon in every chassis.

Omnimechs, if implemented following the lore, will be more unique because they have a fixed engine and armor, so each 'Mech will have its own capabilities and flaws while allowing a bit more freedom in changing the weapons loadout.

This is kind of crazy, but you know PGI already threw the lore off the windows, quiaff?
Hope this helped.

[Felix Dante]

Finestaut, on 21 October 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

While this has an attractive symmetry and elegance, it's not balanced by a long shot. Many omnimechs come preloaded with an ideal, or close-to-idea engine, so losing the ability to modify it doesn't hurt too much.

I disagree.Look at this difference. Thor vs. a Nova Cat: both are the same tonnage, both use XL but the engine Weight makes a HUGE difference in weapons and equipment. The Nova Cat is one of the deadliest (later timeline designed) heavies there is weapon-wise. While the Thor has a much better Movement profile. Its an obvious tradeoff. There is NO best engine. Most Clan XLs are picked (around 3050) for the most speed for that chassis, mainly due to the dueling rules the Clan tend to use. WIld one-on-one battles tend to go to the mech with the best speed, not just damage potential. The only ones that are not hyped by speed are usually the Assaults where the speed bump won't make enough difference. Not to mention the engine choices are limited for mechs on tabletop, while in MWO any engine size just a little bigger can add a small but useful advantage! If you think tweaking an engine is nothing, then I can guarantee you people will howl if they cannot change out an Omni-Mech's engine if the IS still can.I personally think freezing an OMNi's armor, chassis, and engine would make great balancers. Besides Most Clan Omni's (non-assaults) of 3050 have sub-optimal armor for their size too!

[Finestaut]

CyclonerM, on 01 November 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

I accept that it might give this impression, but it would be a logical decision. Clanners are organized in Stars of Five 'Mechs and i would be disappointed if this was not kept in MWO. If it may help a bit achieving the balance is a bonus

But this actually causes imbalance, by inviting The First Terrible Thing. Nothing is worst for variety and freshness than marking all previous content as obsolete.

CyclonerM, on 01 November 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Sure, i will be more than willing to clarify! BattleMechs are supposed to be more unique because they have stock variants which have fixed weapons. Engine, armor and weapons can be changed but it is neither simple nor fast and cannot be done to adapt to a new war scenario or a particular mission (some changes may take even a month). So it is safe to assume that they are usually used with stock variants.
On the other hand, Omnimechs are able to switch weapon pods quickly to adapt to a mission or the preferences of the pilot, at expense of customization of the internals which are hard-wired into the chassis.

In MWO you can change everything with no time. You will agree that they are even more customizable than Omnimechs. Yes, omnimechs have Omni-hardpoints but they are a minor advantage when IS 'Mechs have hardpoints which can fit any weapon of the same type with no difficulties. You can fit a Gauss rifle on a light 'Mech because there are no size restrictions.

So it is safe to assume that IS Battlemechs are only collections of hardpoints since you can fit almost every weapon in every chassis.

Omnimechs, if implemented following the lore, will be more unique because they have a fixed engine and armor, so each 'Mech will have its own capabilities and flaws while allowing a bit more freedom in changing the weapons loadout.

This is kind of crazy, but you know PGI already threw the lore off the windows, quiaff?
Hope this helped.

So you're advocating an EXTREMELY faithful adaptation. While all these things would be the best way to directly map the TT mechanics to MWO, this would have dire consequences in this game. The Kit Fox and Hellbringer would be hilarious jokes with no punch line. The Timber Wolf and Daishi would dominate their respective weight classes, and there would be no one playing IS 'mechs.

We'd have ALL the Terrible Things, at the same time.

[Finestaut]

Felix Dante, on 01 November 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

I disagree.Look at this difference. Thor vs. a Nova Cat: both are the same tonnage, both use XL but the engine Weight makes a HUGE difference in weapons and equipment. The Nova Cat is one of the deadliest (later timeline designed) heavies there is weapon-wise. While the Thor has a much better Movement profile. Its an obvious tradeoff. There is NO best engine. Most Clan XLs are picked (around 3050) for the most speed for that chassis, mainly due to the dueling rules the Clan tend to use. WIld one-on-one battles tend to go to the mech with the best speed, not just damage potential. The only ones that are not hyped by speed are usually the Assaults where the speed bump won't make enough difference. Not to mention the engine choices are limited for mechs on tabletop, while in MWO any engine size just a little bigger can add a small but useful advantage! If you think tweaking an engine is nothing, then I can guarantee you people will howl if they cannot change out an Omni-Mech's engine if the IS still can.I personally think freezing an OMNi's armor, chassis, and engine would make great balancers. Besides Most Clan Omni's (non-assaults) of 3050 have sub-optimal armor for their size too!

What, exactly makes you think locked engines are a good balancer? I feel I've made a fair case for locked engines being very bad, specifically by utterly destroying the Cougar and Kit Fox, while causing no harm to the Timber Wolf or Daishi: creating a significant imbalance just among the Clan 'mechs right off the bat. While there may not, necessarily be a "Best" engine, (debatable, but I'll concede it) there are most definitely "bad" ones. There will be no Kit Foxes in your world. This is a Terrible Thing. People will howl because it is worthy of howling.

[CyclonerM]

Finestaut, on 01 November 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

But this actually causes imbalance, by inviting The First Terrible Thing. Nothing is worst for variety and freshness than marking all previous content as obsolete.

Not necessarily. I do not see the imbalance. A new economy, new factions and different organization would add much to the freshness.
If you achieve the decent balance of 'mechs and weapons you want, 12vs10 may be, if not logical, acceptable.

Finestaut, on 01 November 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

So you're advocating an EXTREMELY faithful adaptation. While all these things would be the best way to directly map the TT mechanics to MWO, this would have dire consequences in this game. The Kit Fox and Hellbringer would be hilarious jokes with no punch line. The Timber Wolf and Daishi would dominate their respective weight classes, and there would be no one playing IS 'mechs.

Last time i checked this is a MechWarrior game, based on Battletech, thoguh an interpretation of it (you see they have already changed many values from the TT because they were unable to translate it to a real time game -who says it is impossible?)

Let me explain: in all the past 'MechWarrior games we had either completely customizable Omnimechs (MW2) or Clan 'Mechs being very similar to the IS 'Mechs (MW4). In the first game there are no problems since there are only Clans. In MW4, both in single player and multy, the logical choice is using Clan weapons which were just better, lighter and more powerful. IS tech WAS obsolete (even useless), exactly what you fear.

If you make Clan 'Mechs similar to Inner Sphere 'Mech, you have some kind of balance but kill the freshness of the game (and cause much disappointment among us ) but if you have a less than perfect balance for Clan weapons, masses will go the Clans (Terrible Thing #1) because they are (or are perceived as) superior.

You have to not encourage this. So if Omnimechs have their natural balance factors, why not using them respecting the lore as well? If i was a noob player who just installed MWO and had to choose between fully customizable 'Mechs and 'mechs with a bit more freedom in the weapons but whose engine, armor and internals cannot be changed, i would think some time before choosing. If you add that Clan weapons are not superior or have their heavy disadvantages, heat or whatever and they drop with 2 players less, have an alien culture and there are so many Inner Sphere merc corps (without stange honor rules) to join, you are doing it right IMHO.

I recognize that how good is a 'Mech is far from being just mathematic, but if you put the simple equation:

Good mech = armor+weapons+speed, where "good mech" is costant, you assume that each 'Mech class has its own relation between those values. I don't have time to do stat comparisons, but the Kit Fox has the weaponry of a small medium and a good armor for a light, lacking of a very good speed ("only" 97 KPHs), which makes it more a medium than a light, just like the Timber Wolf is more an assault than a heavy,compared to IS 'Mechs, boasting very good speed and great firepower and armor. If you know how to use Mediums, you have a good chance to use well the Kit Fox, a small medium with low-profile, especially if they scale it like the other lights we have in MWO. There is a reason it is my favourite Clan light 'Mech.

If you learn how to use these 'Mechs, you will avoid the T.T.#3 and #2.

Also do not forget the Hellbringer has ECM!

If you dont agree and still have objections, please tell me

Finestaut, on 01 November 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

What, exactly makes you think locked engines are a good balancer? I feel I've made a fair case for locked engines being very bad, specifically by utterly destroying the Cougar and Kit Fox, while causing no harm to the Timber Wolf or Daishi: creating a significant imbalance just among the Clan 'mechs right off the bat. While there may not, necessarily be a "Best" engine, (debatable, but I'll concede it) there are most definitely "bad" ones. There will be no Kit Foxes in your world. This is a Terrible Thing. People will howl because it is worthy of howling.

The Dire Wolf is slow enough for an assault, quiaff?
Regardind the Kit Fox, see above.

[Finestaut]

CyclonerM, on 02 November 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

You have to not encourage this. So if Omnimechs have their natural balance factors, why not using them respecting the lore as well? If i was a noob player who just installed MWO and had to choose between fully customizable 'Mechs and 'mechs with a bit more freedom in the weapons but whose engine, armor and internals cannot be changed, i would think some time before choosing. If you add that Clan weapons are not superior or have their heavy disadvantages, heat or whatever and they drop with 2 players less, have an alien culture and there are so many Inner Sphere merc corps (without stange honor rules) to join, you are doing it right IMHO.

I recognize that how good is a 'Mech is far from being just mathematic, but if you put the simple equation:

Good mech = armor+weapons+speed, where "good mech" is costant, you assume that each 'Mech class has its own relation between those values. I don't have time to do stat comparisons, but the Kit Fox has the weaponry of a small medium and a good armor for a light, lacking of a very good speed ("only" 97 KPHs), which makes it more a medium than a light, just like the Timber Wolf is more an assault than a heavy,compared to IS 'Mechs, boasting very good speed and great firepower and armor. If you know how to use Mediums, you have a good chance to use well the Kit Fox, a small medium with low-profile, especially if they scale it like the other lights we have in MWO. There is a reason it is my favourite Clan light 'Mech.

If you learn how to use these 'Mechs, you will avoid the T.T.#3 and #2.

Also do not forget the Hellbringer has ECM!

If you dont agree and still have objections, please tell me

Ok, there are a lot of big ideas here. I suggest we focus a bit. Let's start with engines. I hold that locked canon engine ratings on clan mechs are bad. I believe the canon engine ratings on the Cougar and Kit Fox are ill suited to MWO, the game we are playing.

I challenge you to convince me this is not the case. There are two things you can do here: One, convince me that MWO would be just fine without the Cougar and Kit Fox. I'm OK with us not getting an Urbanmech, because it adds nothing to the game. If you can make a similar argument for the Cougar and Kit Fox, I'll back off the engine complaint. Alternately, you can convince me that, somewhere in MWO, there's a unique role for a light 'mech that moves like a medium.

This second option is a tall order. I cannot accept a broad, vague "get good" argument. I need you to be specifc. I need to know what exactly I can do in a Kit Fox that I can't do better in a Ryoken, which goes just as fast, while carrying a much bigger payload. I would very much like to see a link to an IS light build, with an engine hobbled as with the Cougar and Kit Fox, that I can take into a match and expect to do well in. Moreover, I need to see a build that doesn't immediately improve when transferred to a medium. I need to also know why no one, to date, in the PUG or Competitive scene, has managed to solve the Riddle of the Slow Light. I believe this mech concept is so bad, no one can do well in it consistently. I only believe this because no one ever has.

Convince me locked engines work. Just that much, and then we'll talk about all that other stuff.

[CyclonerM]

Finestaut, on 02 November 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Ok, there are a lot of big ideas here. I suggest we focus a bit. Let's start with engines. I hold that locked canon engine ratings on clan mechs are bad. I believe the canon engine ratings on the Cougar and Kit Fox are ill suited to MWO, the game we are playing.

I challenge you to convince me this is not the case.

Well bargained and done.

First, it is hard to speak a years before we actually have the 'Mech. I only played the Kit Fox in multiplayer in MW:LL.


Second, it may not be your case, but often people just are not good with a 'mech and say that it sucks. This is undeniable, i know i suck with a 'Mech but i do not say it sucks.

Third, reading the first line on Sarna, i got a little idea. It says the Kit Fox's focus is on longe-range combat. Seeing its prime loadout, i thought it may be a valid alternative with the ERLL+2 machine guns Spider because it could snipe while carrying more weapons (and more armor).

Fourth. I know the Stormcrow can do it better, better armored, as fast and with more weapons. On this i agree. But you mustn't forget that when tonnage limits will be in place, the weight of your team's 'Mechs will have far more relevance. You just cannot drop with 10 Dire Wolves. You have to choose. If you want to drop some assaults, you will have to load on your dropship some lights. If you need a 'Mech which can do almost the same job as a Stormcrow, you may want to take a Kit Fox.

Fifth: If you were a Jade Falcon fan, wouldn't you have wanted a Kit Fox at all costs?

Sixth: as i already said, if a Timberwolf is almost better than an assault, why not to consider the Kit Fox more a medium than a light?

Seventh: Besides, there are so few 'Mechs which can be considered "under-engined" for their class. With locked engine, you have a balance factor and discourage noobs to get Clan tech "because you can load all the weaponz you want and change the engine to go fast and furious!!". And we hardcore players would be happy at the same time.

on the other hand, if you do not lock internals and you can totally customize Omnimechs AND use hardpoints which allow for even more freedom (without size or slots limitations), you may bet the T.T. #1 will happen.

You need to say: "Here there are the Clans. We will not force you to follow their honor rules if you wanna join them, but their 'mechs are Omnimechs and you must be aware of this. You can switch weapons with more freedom, but this comes to a great expense. Think about it before joining a Clan." This because a player who used to tweak every part of his 'Mechs might be confused and not like so much a more limited kind of 'mech.

Eighth: size. If you scale down a light, even without a great speed advantage it will be harder to hit, especially at range. It will have an easier time when trying to get a cover and JJing.

this should come with 12vs10, honor points and maybe some kind of thing like this: they stated they will implement a kind of levels; if you are, for example, level 15 as a Inner Sphere mechwarrior, if you join a Clan faction you are taken as bondsman and this is reflected getting back to level 1. You are adopted in your new Clan and can get Omnimechs when you reach a higher level, 10 for example. This may be permanent. So one is forced to choose carefully and not by insticts. But this is another topic.

I do not know much about the Cougar, will search some info and address the question later. I hope i have convinced you a bit more, now i am going out. Enjoy!

Edited by CyclonerM, 02 November 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[pbiggz]

Finestaut, on 02 November 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Ok, there are a lot of big ideas here. I suggest we focus a bit. Let's start with engines. I hold that locked canon engine ratings on clan mechs are bad. I believe the canon engine ratings on the Cougar and Kit Fox are ill suited to MWO, the game we are playing.

I challenge you to convince me this is not the case. There are two things you can do here: One, convince me that MWO would be just fine without the Cougar and Kit Fox. I'm OK with us not getting an Urbanmech, because it adds nothing to the game. If you can make a similar argument for the Cougar and Kit Fox, I'll back off the engine complaint. Alternately, you can convince me that, somewhere in MWO, there's a unique role for a light 'mech that moves like a medium.

This second option is a tall order. I cannot accept a broad, vague "get good" argument. I need you to be specifc. I need to know what exactly I can do in a Kit Fox that I can't do better in a Ryoken, which goes just as fast, while carrying a much bigger payload. I would very much like to see a link to an IS light build, with an engine hobbled as with the Cougar and Kit Fox, that I can take into a match and expect to do well in. Moreover, I need to see a build that doesn't immediately improve when transferred to a medium. I need to also know why no one, to date, in the PUG or Competitive scene, has managed to solve the Riddle of the Slow Light. I believe this mech concept is so bad, no one can do well in it consistently. I only believe this because no one ever has.

Convince me locked engines work. Just that much, and then we'll talk about all that other stuff.

Alternative to engine locks: Engine ranges. While internals are still locked you could raise or lower the rating of your Omnimechs engine at the cost of omni-pods, and only within a certain range OR it can only switch between a few engines of specific range: EX: Summoner's engine could be any Clan XL between 350 and 375, and pushing the engine higher means you have fewer omni-pods to work with. To make it seem as though its tweaking a fixed component, this toggle is performed in the mechlab using a slider rather than actually switching out the engine component. All other components that are meant to be fixed, armor, electronics, heatsinks, remain locked and uncustomizable.

[Strum Wealh]

Another thing to consider is how far along the path of "leave out X 'Mech/config" one would really want to go.

I opened up RemLab and set up the base Daishi.
Then, I made note of the Prime configuration's armaments: one ballistic in each arm (UAC/5s, with 2 tons of ammo), 4 energy in each arm (x2 ERLL, x2 MPL), and a missile hardpoint in the Left Torso (LRM-10, with 1 ton of ammo).

Here is what I was able to fit, in 50.5 tons of pod space and while not even filling the starting hardpoints:

• x2 Clan UAC/20s (one in each arm) w/ 8 tons of ammo
  
• x4 ER Medium Lasers (2 per arm)
  
• x1 ALRM-15 (in the Left Torso) w/ 4 tons of ammo
  
• 3 extra DHS (for a total of 18 DHS)

All of that can be fit onto the Daishi (filling all criticals and still having 3 tons free) without changing the base configuration at all (e.g. Engine, Structure, Armor, etc)... and it has four fewer weapons than what it started with, near-maximum armor (the same amount as a stock Atlas), and has the speed of a stock (non-hero) Atlas.

Even without firing the UACs in Ultra Mode & even if the ERMLs are pushed down to the same damage as IS Medium Lasers (5 units of damage per salvo), one is looking at at least 60 pts of pinpoint damage per salvo at short-to-medium range.
If the UACs don't jam & ERMLs retain their damage output (7 units of damage per salvo), and one throws in the missile launcher for good measure... well, it's little wonder that the thing is called "great death"!

That this can be done with the primary configuration, even with the base equipment locked-down, begs the question: should the Daishi ever be introduced to MWO, or should it be left out entirely lest it (probably) break the game?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 02 November 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Borgadun]

Clan-mechs didn't need to be balanced at all. If you watch at the Armor-values of each mech, you will recognice that they have the same as an FIS counterpart most of the time. Perhaps FIS mechs need to install more armor.

I.E. an Orion has the same Armor-Value as a Timberwolf ( 460 ), but the Timberwolf has a weak rear-armor. The Clans get some weightsaving to their improved techniques using Ferrofibius, which provides some more armor at the same weight an is not as bulky as the FIS version. Endosteel is also less bulky in the Clanversion with the same weightsaving.

Next point you should think about is that the Clan-mechs are faster and have a supreme manouverbility thanks to their advanced XL-engine. Both, FIS and Clan, reduce the weight of the reactor by half. But the Clanversion is, like Ferrofibius or Endosteel, less bulkier like the FIS-version.

Last thing we could look at are the DHS, which are like all direct components less bulkier in the Clanversion.


So the only advantages of the Clan-mechs are their weightsaving and less bulkier components, which means you just get more weapons and equipment. By this you could get more of those nasty lasers, rockets and ACs in your mech.

And Clan-weapons are another issue to talk about. but at an other place

[Borgadun]

Strum Wealh, on 02 November 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Here is what I was able to fit, in 50.5 tons of pod space and while not even filling the starting hardpoints:

• x2 Clan UAC/20s (one in each arm) w/ 8 tons of ammo
  
• x4 ER Medium Lasers (2 per arm)
  
• x1 ALRM-15 (in the Left Torso) w/ 4 tons of ammo
  
• 3 extra DHS (for a total of 18 DHS)

and you will see you Daishi shut down after the first salvo of your double UAC20. And you calculating your damage at a satic target, aren't you?

Keep in mind that targets are moving.

Strum Wealh, on 02 November 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

All of that can be fit onto the Daishi (filling all criticals and still having 3 tons free) without changing the base configuration at all (e.g. Engine, Structure, Armor, etc)... and it has four fewer weapons than what it started with, near-maximum armor (the same amount as a stock Atlas), and has the speed of a stock (non-hero) Atlas.

Ever seen an Atlas turning or seen it being hit from multipel directions?

Remember my words: Clan-mechs are not supirior like they seem

[Strum Wealh]

Borgadun, on 02 November 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

and you will see you Daishi shut down after the first salvo of your double UAC20. And you calculating your damage at a satic target, aren't you?

Keep in mind that targets are moving.



Ever seen an Atlas turning or seen it being hit from multipel directions?

Remember my words: Clan-mechs are not supirior like they seem

The heat output from a single shell is 7, assuming PGI stays with the canonical heat output.
Ghost Heat from the standard AC/20 is +11.52

Double-tapping both UACs simultaneously would be 7 + 7 + ~12(GH) + 7 + 7 + ~12(GH) = ~52 units of heat.
Firing both UACs without double-tapping (which is what I was talking about) would be half of that, or ~26 units of heat.
Clan ERMLs generate 5 units of heat apiece (per TT), so four of them (assuming they share the standard ML's GH limit of 6) would together generate 20 units of heat.

With 18 DHS (assuming the same HS scheme remains in place), it could vent 3.12 heat/second.
With 18 DHS, the heat scale - that is, the heat threshold - would be 30 + (10*2) + (8*1.4) = 61.2 units of heat
(source on how HS & heat scale work)

Heat-wise, such a Daishi as I have described would be quite capable of handling the heat from a single salvo of double-tapped twin UAC/20s or a single salvo of single-tapped twin UAC/20s plus a quartet of ERMLs (again, with the second being what I was talking about) on a neutral or even slightly warm map.

Very few 'Mechs outside of the fastest of the Lights and the Cicada (which, contrary to popular belief, is in fact a Medium ) are likely to evade the first two shells (which will land in the same general spot), and there is a good chance on most 'Mechs that the quartet of laser beams would mostly expend themselves against the same general area.
Alternatively, double-tapping the UACs means a second front-loaded 40 units of damage going toward the target, with a fair chance of hitting the same general area as the first set.

Moreover, that spare 3 tons would be enough to get it up to a 340 XL if the Engine isn't locked - enough to boost its speed from 48.6 kph to 55.1 kph (or 60.6 kph if the 10% bonus from Speed Tweak is included), in addition to boosting its torso twist speed.

Granted, it's not as ridiculously powerful as it would be without Ghost Heat and with all of the DHS being "true-dubs", but it is far beyond what the vast majority of 'Mechs currently in-game can do (though, the x6 PPC/ER-PPC/LL/ERLL/LPL Stalkers come close).

[Daneiel]

Ok probably i will get a ban for that post , but i think at least will have some purpose !

As i posted before you can not balance properly the omni-mechs without properly do it for the battlemechs.What i mean -> at that point so much freedom in the customisation leads to total mess in the game - you have "something" with the name Mech Warrior but exept the game name and names of the mechs and the weapons don't have so much common with battletech ( proper feeling ).
To understand me properly you need to see where PGI failed -> most critical parts are the fondation of that game -> Mech Lab , Size of the Maps and lack of any economic in the game !!! Below i will explain every single part and why you can not balance omni-mechs vs battlemechs and clan weapons vs IS weapons .

Lets start with the Mech Lab - I doubt that any one of you don have idea how rich is battletech .
1st. The Inner Sphere has multiple variants for every single weapon , lets take for example AC/10 - AC/10 has 14 different [color=#000000]manufactured variants .You will say "and so " - here comes the most important part you don't need to balance it on alpha damage ,but at 10 seconds dps as it is in the TT- many variants with different damage and heat on sigle shot but with different reload time and DPS in 10 seconds.The Clans on other hand don't have so much [/color]diversity in the weapons - 1 variant "type 9" for UAC/10 .
2nd. The Battlemech customisation - you hava locked the weapon customisation to the weapon variants . Example Centurion CN9-A -> main weapon stock - Luxor D - lets say 5 dmg per shot 1.5 heat , reload time 5 sec. , you are not happy because the alpha dmg is low or the ammo is verry expensive for your faction(lets say Liao ) , so you want to change it to something else more economicaly suitable for you and you decide to take - [color=#000000]Ceres Arms Model T - 3 dmg 1 heat per shot - same DPS for 10 sec. and same heat , same goes for every sigle weapon , but when its come for internals here the battlemech shines -> you can change engine , internal structure , heat sinks , armor !!!![/color][color=#000000]Next the Omni mechs - omni-mechs has locked internals and some of the mechs has locked weapons like the battlemechs ( example the flamer of the Adder) , but it has freedom to change the weapon load out to your desire , afin you will say " it is far too much freedom " - nope you have already fixed weapon tonage limitation , now separate it properly at the all six part of the mech and you have also not small limitation - here we need to make a [/color]sacrifice - some of the variants will not be available .

Economic - I will continue with the economic because i tuch it above . Repair and rearm is the key stone in every single online based game , do not make mistake with sinle player games with multiplayer options .R&R is the tool for PGI to control the population - discounts for spesific weapons and ammo , the repair for bonuses for faction mechs and all these litle tricks that can keep the people happy , (here comes the BIG BUT ) but they need prfit - the profit must come from reasonable bonus in premium and prices in the "shop" - you want to run your FedCom CN9-A with Imperator-B from Free World League and have profit - pay premium !!! You have too much Cataphracts in the game rise the repair cost - if you wish profit with Cataphract and you are average player - pay premium .

Size of the maps - probably that is most ignored part . The size of the map give purpose for every single mech and give opportunities to be added multiple objective so every single class( not weight class) to has purpose to be there ,also these objectives can be linked directly to the economic - example - you have a sigle repair station on the map who hold it can repair (patch the armor not replace missing arm or weapons ) and that will reduse you repair bill at the end , but you can not reapir 5 mechs at the same time and patching and rearming takes time depends how much damage you taken .The formations will be much more spreaded and with 12 vs 10 the clans will be putted against the wall , they need to compensate with the player skills - aka learn or broke .

At the end i will add something also is disregarded from PGI - the skill tree - at that point the skill tree is so pathetic from the side of creativity that is almost ruefully. I will point some things made it other games - > the ground crew in war tunder -> rising points in the repair , rearm and maintance can increase the performance of your plane in their game , here it can be made at the same way , but you can add logistic - redusing ammo cost , for the pilot tree puting points in heat tolerance training redusing heat effect made as bluring your vision , and so and so .

So to properly balance the omni mechs you need first to scrap the game and done it again.

Edited by daneiel varna, 02 November 2013 - 05:14 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Why your description reminds me so much of MW:LL?

[Daneiel]

Simple - MW:LL done it right even without Mech lab . MW:LL is just a mod , but much better made gameplay then MWO , every single part of that mode is properly balanced - you saied you played MW:LL do you remember how the jump jets work there , do you remember how they worked in MW3 - that is one simple example .