338 replies to this topic

[Corwin Vickers]

You need to aim ahead of the spider Homeless Bill, not behind them. You'll do much better.


All you older players should remember back when ballistics took like half a second to fire. That is because in a server authoratative game you send your desire to shoot to the server, it takes your request (for guys with 250 ping) 1/4th of a second to get there. The server does the calc and sends the result back to you. Half a second has passed before you see the results of your shot.

That pissed everyone off so they fixed it. Except they didn't fix it, they just gave you a simulation on your side that is sometimes right, and sometimes wrong. You still send your desire to shoot to the server which takes a 1/4 second. And then the server sends back the result to you, but you've already seen what happened, whether it was what really happened or not so the only thing that changes is the paper doll of the enemy mech. This is probably also why it takes a long time for paper dolls to update sometimes (also causing claims of invincible light mechs.)

As to exactly how HSR does it's prediction, that is a mystery but it seems to throw a monkey wrench into predicting where high ping enemies really are.


You guys should spend more time complaining to your ISP to get better ping than complaining here about spiders. One of the guys I'm playing with right now found out that his connection is going to Europe before coming back to the US. That's on Comcast.

Edited by Corwin Vickers, 17 October 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[Ramla]

One of the mmo fps I'm playing right now have Europeans' connections going to US before coming back to the Europe. That's MWO by PGI.

Edited by Ramla, 17 October 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[yashmack]

Hythos, on 17 October 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

Tonight on Tourmaline, approaching Epsilon - zoomed in and fired twice from 600m with an ERLarge Laser to the dead-center of a Spider - PERFECTLY CLEAR LOS, with him standing totally still the entire time, probably watching another direction.

No damage. I didn't imagine it, 'cause I had two people observing me when this happened.



But it does.

we knew the spider was standing still, (again, not blocked by a leg of the 'resource platform, perfectly clear LOS), because once he saw me, he ran off.

Undamaged.

This happens not just with Spiders but every mech at some point, its not a hitbox issue its an issue with hit registration and with host state rewind...

[Training Instructor]

Mehlan, on 17 October 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

..but it's is kinda amusing to see people get worked up over it. :-) Besides, if OP had calmed and taken advantage of the opportunity instead of flipping his lid he might have been able to get clarification or more information.

LOL, it's not possible to squeeze blood from a stone. Garth would have to have more information to give, or know what to do with the information he was exposed to on a daily basis.

[Kmieciu]

In MWO we have hitbox bugs, hitreg bugs and on top of it there are SRM issues.

The Raven used to have a small leg hitbox, which has been enlarged and is now easier to hit. We don't know if it was smaller than it's leg and now it is the correct size, or if it was in fact the same size as the leg, and now the hitbox is bigger than the visual model.

But what we do know is that the Locust is very easy to leg, even when running at max speed. I've witnessed an Atlas fire his 2xLL twice and legging a Locust. I have never seen an Atlas soloing a Spider using only 2 large lasers. And I always spectate till the end. AC20 - no problem. PPC - a little tricky, but doable. Lasers - ineffective.

Edited by Kmieciu, 17 October 2013 - 11:20 PM.

[ClumsyKlutz]

Hi,

i don't know WHAT's wrong with the spider, but i had a similar experience yesterday.
The spidy had me cornered, but got stuck 4 or 5 times(Canyon Map), where i used the window of opportunity to fire 4 perfect alphastrikes with large lasers and PPCs into him.
I know PPCs have a min. range but as far as i know, they don't do NO damage but the damage is reduced by 10% for every 10m below 90m (Most of the time it was around 60-70m distance).

So i unloaded around 80-90 points of damage into the spider, and he wasn't even one orange part on him.

2 matches later i had 2 really lucky shots at a spider with an AC20 and one PPC from aprox 300m away.
I actually did no damage.

Later yesterday i had another experience with a spider on the snow colony map.
The spider ran through the water (and got stuck 2 times on the freighter wreckage), while a Thunderbolt, my Jager and a Highlander fired and hit with a relativly good ratio, and the itzi bitzi spider just ran away in perfect shape. Oh wait, one arm was yellow

So normally i would be sceptical too, but these 3 events really changed my mind, because i experienced it first hand.

[Fang01]

I got one hit killed by a first shot ac20 to the cockpit tonight. Nothing wrong with Spiders as far as I can tell

[Svidro]

ClumsyKlutz, on 17 October 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Hi,

i don't know WHAT's wrong with the spider, but i had a similar experience yesterday.
The spidy had me cornered, but got stuck 4 or 5 times(Canyon Map), where i used the window of opportunity to fire 4 perfect alphastrikes with large lasers and PPCs into him.
I know PPCs have a min. range but as far as i know, they don't do NO damage but the damage is reduced by 10% for every 10m below 90m (Most of the time it was around 60-70m distance).

So i unloaded around 80-90 points of damage into the spider, and he wasn't even one orange part on him.

2 matches later i had 2 really lucky shots at a spider with an AC20 and one PPC from aprox 300m away.
I actually did no damage.

Later yesterday i had another experience with a spider on the snow colony map.
The spider ran through the water (and got stuck 2 times on the freighter wreckage), while a Thunderbolt, my Jager and a Highlander fired and hit with a relativly good ratio, and the itzi bitzi spider just ran away in perfect shape. Oh wait, one arm was yellow

So normally i would be sceptical too, but these 3 events really changed my mind, because i experienced it first hand.

Two things:
1. Check your information on PPCs, You might be... a few patches behind there.
2. When a mech is stuck on terrain, it very frequently is NOT where it appears to be on your screen. I have had this happen a couple of times with mechs getting stuck on Tourmaline desert, and I had to fire above/below, etc. until I found a spot where the shots did damage to the mech that was somewhere else.

[Corwin Vickers]

PPC damage is reduced to 0 under 90 meters

[audi man]

ClumsyKlutz, on 17 October 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Hi,

i don't know WHAT's wrong with the spider, but i had a similar experience yesterday.
The spidy had me cornered, but got stuck 4 or 5 times(Canyon Map), where i used the window of opportunity to fire 4 perfect alphastrikes with large lasers and PPCs into him.
I know PPCs have a min. range but as far as i know, they don't do NO damage but the damage is reduced by 10% for every 10m below 90m (Most of the time it was around 60-70m distance).

So i unloaded around 80-90 points of damage into the spider, and he wasn't even one orange part on him.

2 matches later i had 2 really lucky shots at a spider with an AC20 and one PPC from aprox 300m away.
I actually did no damage.

Later yesterday i had another experience with a spider on the snow colony map.
The spider ran through the water (and got stuck 2 times on the freighter wreckage), while a Thunderbolt, my Jager and a Highlander fired and hit with a relativly good ratio, and the itzi bitzi spider just ran away in perfect shape. Oh wait, one arm was yellow

So normally i would be sceptical too, but these 3 events really changed my mind, because i experienced it first hand.

PPC's currently do NO damage below 90m.

If you play enough MWO, you pretty soon realise that no matter your target, no matter your weapon, your fired shots are never necessarily going to hit.

If someone wants to prove there is a hitbox problem, and not a combination of small fast mech, different pings and hit registration problem, all you have to do is experiment in Training Grounds!

In training grounds, you are eliminating the effect of movement and ping - isolate the variable you want to test - the hitbox.

When someone posts a video showing hits that dont register on spiders, taken in training grounds, on OPEN GROUND (where invisible terrain dont get in the way (lots of this in tourmaline and terra therma), from various angles and with different weapons, that will be evidence.

Anything else is speculation, purely because you cant prove something when you are testing it for it in a totally uncontrolled way.

Now, lets all do some real testing :-)

[New Day]

Gaan Cathal, on 17 October 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

There isn't a problem with Spider hitboxes(at least not one not present on other mechs, the torso-hip joint hole appears universal). There is a universal problem with hitreg which is compounded by the Spider's combination of speed and complex geometry.

That's why I see it on all lights, right? Oh wait.

[Antarus]

I'm being punished for buying Jenners instead of Spiders every day, and it's getting infuriating. Raven's could use a pass, too, honestly...

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 17 October 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

I got one hit killed by a first shot ac20 to the cockpit tonight. Nothing wrong with Spiders as far as I can tell

Let's ignore the hundreds of them that have passed harmlessly through your body, based on a single datapoint.

Spiders standing still can be missed by large pulses.

Edited by Antarus, 18 October 2013 - 01:16 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Unfortunately damage in the training grounds isn't necessarily correct either. Unless they fixes it there have been problems since they st it up.

[GODzillaGSPB]

SirLANsalot, on 17 October 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

THIS!

its not the box, its your poor internet and the still somewhat broken host state rewind. If you have low ping it hates you, if you have high ping it hates you, if you have ping in the 80-120 it likes you.....

Mine is 150, plus minus 10. So....I guess it hates me enough for those bugs to be unhitable (and yes they are for me, hardly take damage, 4x ML do almost nothing).

NamesAreStupid, on 17 October 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

That's why I see it on all lights, right? Oh wait.

Read again: Complex geometry. Look at the spider body, which light is shaped like this? Closest would actually be the Commando, but it is much more angular in its shape. All other lights are chicken-walkers, they share a common anatomy. No wonder for instance that the Locust registers damage fine, despite being as small and as fast compared to the Spider.

It all comes down to that geometry and engine limitations which may make it impossible for them to fix it. Which would be a shame

Edited by GODzillaGSPB, 18 October 2013 - 01:32 AM.

[Krivvan]

Antarus, on 18 October 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

I'm being punished for buying Jenners instead of Spiders every day, and it's getting infuriating. Raven's could use a pass, too, honestly...

Jenners are still considered the best lights by far.

[Cybermech]

yes but jenner require a lot more experience these days compared to what they used to be.
the "hitbox" is not the issue here guys.

plenty people have pointed out the flaws and it comes down to hit registration.
I am slightly confused on why the locust is so easy to kill.
I do know the spider hitbox is tiny. very slim which is where damage is not being registered.

Also lost on why its shows the most when the spider is either standing still or slowly reversing in a straight line.
using srm's just show how screwed up the missile hit detection really is.
rather then prove any point about spiders.

Edited by Cybermech, 18 October 2013 - 02:09 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 17 October 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

I got one hit killed by a first shot ac20 to the cockpit tonight. Nothing wrong with Spiders as far as I can tell

Really? You got hit once and it proves everything is fine?

Well, hell, why didn't you say something sooner?!? We can all quit talking about it now, since it's now official that Spiders have, on occasion, taken damage. That unequivocally proves that they have no more issues with hit reg than any other mech, and always take the full damage.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Quibbling over semantics is bad customer service. Not defending the player's collective response or anything, but an acknowledgement that there is a problem would have been the better answer.

They asked a question, he answered it. Expecting him to elaborate is stupid... hell look at this thread as an example why.

[Ghogiel]

Corwin Vickers, on 17 October 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

As to exactly how HSR does it's prediction, that is a mystery but it seems to throw a monkey wrench into predicting where high ping enemies really are.

low ping players are worse in my subjective experience for hit detection.

Edited by Ghogiel, 18 October 2013 - 03:23 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Mehlan, on 17 October 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

I'm sure you will, and ignore it's post date of Uploaded on Jul 23, 2013, after which i posted vids (today) showing that whole does not appear to exist anymore. Why dont you make a new one showing it still is?

Because it doesn't support the narrative. It's like the guy who keeps bringing up a video from Closed Beta to prove the existence that Aim Bots are still active.

Bagheera, on 17 October 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

Whatever. The point is that dodging the issue with a flippant remark was bad form.

So, in your world, the chat conversation should have gone like this,

Garth: "Ok, I was here to play the game, but allow me to take my time to explain to these petulant children in chat why they are mistaken. The other 21 of you don't mind that I take the whole 15 minutes..."
Garth: .."to do this do you? Because I can tell by their responses that they are going to be very receptive to anything I have to say."

As you say Whatever, There is a time and a place for those questions, and in the middle of a match isn't one of them. Bad form for asking it there, and REALLY bad form at the reaction, to not getting the answer he wanted. I picture a 5 year old with tourets who was just told that he can't have a piece of candy.

Edited by Roadbeer, 18 October 2013 - 04:48 AM.