98 replies to this topic

[Ruccus]

Christof Romulus, on 18 October 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

The old Gauss rifle will never return, and definitely shouldn't.

[Edit:] (I forgot to mention, these are the OLD stats of the Gauss, not the current stats)
Gauss Rifle VS AC 20:
Range: 660m VS 270m
Heat: 1 VS 7
Speed: 1500 VS 800
Weight: 15 VS 14
Crits: 7 VS 10
Refire: 3.25 VS 4.00 (DPS 4.61 VS 5)
AMMO: 10/ton VS 7/ton (150 max damage/ton VS 140 max damage/ton)

The 'Old Gauss' had a 4 second recycle for a 3.75 dps, not a 3.25 second recycle for 4.61 dps.

It puzzles me why people think the Gauss was great for brawling; it wasn't. Brawls are about the alpha and dps; for the tonnage an AC20 has a bigger alpha and more dps while dual AC5s had two-thirds the alpha but almost double the dps. If all I was going to be doing was brawling I wouldn't have fit the Gauss in my mechs as often as I did. For its tonnage it was a jack-of-all trades weapon that wasn't as good at sniping as dual ER PPCs and wasn't as good at brawling as an AC20 or dual AC5s, but it would never completely fail you in any situation you could be put in during a battle. I used it because I could do solid damage at 450 to 600m and still use it when mechs got close enough to brawl (though during brawls I relied more on my quad medium lasers).

As I've mentioned before in a previous thread, I can't waste 15 tons (plus ammo tonnage) on a weapon that can't fill the roles I need it to fill during a match and I don't have enough armour on my BJ-1 to let peope fire at me for three quarters of a second before I can fire back.

Edited by Ruccus, 18 October 2013 - 04:05 PM.

[Monky]

Ruccus, on 18 October 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

The 'Old Gauss' had a 4 second recycle for a 3.75 dps, not a 3.25 second recycle for 4.61 dps.

It puzzles me why people think the Gauss was great for brawling; it wasn't. Brawls are about the alpha and dps; for the tonnage an AC20 has a bigger alpha and more dps while dual AC5s had three-quarters the alpha but almost double the dps. If all I was going to be doing was brawling I wouldn't have fit the Gauss in my mechs as often as I did. For its tonnage it was a jack-of-all trades weapon that wasn't as good at sniping as dual ER PPCs and wasn't as good at brawling as an AC20 or dual AC5s, but it would never completely fail you in any situation you could be put in during a battle. I used it because I could do solid damage at 450 to 600m and still use it when mechs got close enough to brawl (though during brawls I relied more on my quad medium lasers).

As I've mentioned before in a previous thread, I can't waste 15 tons (plus ammo tonnage) on a weapon that can't fill the roles I need it to fill during a match and I don't have enough armour on my BJ-1 to let peope fire at me for three quarters of a second before I can fire back.

Because before the Jaeger came out dual gauss kitties where able to mount XL + Gauss which meant backup weapons and heat efficiency and speed. AC40 Jaeger is the singular superior option in an out and out brawl, even now.

[Prezimonto]

Khobai, on 18 October 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Im not entirely opposed to the charge-up mechanic. However gauss rifles are flat out inferior to AC/5s currently. Gauss needs its cooldown reduced to 4 seconds like it was before (should be 3.25 cooldown + 0.75 charge-up). Gauss also shouldnt explode when it isnt charged up.

I think both of these are reasonable, welcome, and intuitive changes. The cooldown should have been in place before the change. If the explosions were changed so they were automatic if the rifle was being charged or already charged when it takes that last point of damage, but can not explode if you don't charge it, the weapon would actually be safer and better to use for a sniper. You also then encourage builds with OTHER weapons to be mixed in as you want weapons to use when folks are firing at you up close.

[RichAC]

AC, on 18 October 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

I find the opposite to be true.   You need snap shots at range.  You are often times trying to figure out how much to lead the target, if you have to lob your shot, and how long you have to aim before they duck back into cover.  You need the snap shot at range.  After all you tend to be firing at a target that is about the size of a mechs toe at range.

Up close you don't need the snap shot at all.  You can keep the mech in your crosshairs much longer and rather than just trying to hit the mech at all (like at range) you can actually pick where to shoot the mech.  Brawling was the one place where the gauss charge did not hurt the gauss.

To add to this ... bad lag and fps, which lets face it alot of people have,  make this problem even worse. I'm probably gonna go with ac/20 too instead of gaus when i buy my atlas.

Edited by RichAC, 19 October 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[New Day]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 18 October 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Ya i wish I could get you the stats I just asked but they won't be useful.

To paraphrase " I have the stats and they go against your point, but I can't/will not provide them to you and you will just have to take my word for it"

[JigglyMoobs]

AC, on 18 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I am in this boat as well. I have seen a lot of "The gauss still brawls fine" in other threads. But the gauss was never suppose to be a brawl weapon. It is suppose to be a sniper weapon. The charge mechanic makes it too hard to fire at small specs across the map accurately.

I don't see how that could be true.

First you can fit 4x zoom, which is perfectly sufficient for targets out to 1200 m. Beyond that, your Gauss won't do much damage anyways and it's best to conserve your ammo.

Secondly, the charge up mechanism actually makes your shot more accurate. The reason is that once you charge up, you fire immediately on button release. For most people, releasing the mouse button should actually be a faster reaction than pressing the button, because A. your finger is acting with the force of the spring in the button, so it moves faster, and B. this action will interfere with your mouse tracking less than pressing against the button (which puts more downwards force on your mouse). If you use the charge-hold-release action properly, ie by thinking of and using the release part as a separate trigger event, you should be more accurate, not less.

Your argument regarding snapshots is more compelling. However, even most "snap shot" scenarios take place over the course of several seconds or more. You still have time to charge and fire. If you find yourself in a position where you don't have enough time (eg, all you see are enemy mechs walking between the gaps distant buildings), it seems to me the onus is on you to reposition yourself so you can).

You can also decrease the issue by randomly partially charging up your gauss rifle (holding the button and letting go before it fully charges), so you can have a shorter charge up time. If you see the target on your sensor, then it's even easier.

The current Gauss seems fine if you take some simple steps to adapt. The most problematic thing at the moment, is the low charge-hold time, which makes it hard to use Gauss in conjunction with other weapons on mechs where you need to torso twist. For this reason I'm only using it on dual gauss build. If they fix the charge-hold time, I'll start using it on my brawling mechs again.

[Odins Fist]

Anyone can get good with any weapon at close range provided it doesn't have a minimum distance handicap.

If you spend enough time on a weapon you will be good with it by default. If not, then you're doing it wrong.

[J0anna]

The charge mechanic isn't all that bad, but it's implementation is horrible. The fire window could be tweaked time wise, but the ROF should have been changed to accommodate it. The worst thing for me though is the 'fire on release' mechanic. All my builds are setup to snipe off the mouse wheel, the fire-on-release mechanism simply doesn't work. Had they done it where first click is to charge and the second click was to fire, it would have actually worked on my builds. As it is, I can't be bothered writing a macro that's only used on some builds with only one weapon. The way it is now, you're almost forced to put the gauss on the first of second mouse button, by itself, to use it very accurately - fortunately there are other weapons that perform nearly as well.

[Morderian]

jiggly, sry but the Charge up does not make your shots more accurate for the simple reason that your targets are moving ,and they will be in cover before you gauss is loaded, and your mouse movement is slowed when you hold and button constantly because there is more pressure on your mouse meaning you mouse gets slower which also makes your aim slower and less accurate, or allys will jump in front of you when the Gauss is loaded (another Big reason i dislike the Gauss change that already did waste so many possibilitys to shoot)

your pre charging also does not work exept for dual Gauss and Gauss PPCs builds and Jumpsnipers, for the simple reason that you need lots of concentration for one weapon to keep it charged, not good for people who use it as an longrange support weapon to cover their advance so they can kill there enemys with srm and Laser also it reduces your oversight of the Battlefield because that concentration is missing somewhere
and we have no Ballistic that can fill this role instaed of the Gauss because all other Ballistics are either mid and shortrange weapons (AC10/20) or DPS weapons (AC2/5) both not an option as an longrange support weapon on mechs that dont have 2-4 Ballistic slots (and if my mech has that many, hey for what i use srms and laser 4 AC5/2 do the same and more effective)

of course that is no issue for Jumpsnipers and Dual Gauss /PPC Gauss combos because i have wepons that have the same role long range fire so i either hit them with two Gauss rifles because i only need 1 mousebutton, i load my gauss when i jump up or my PPC will cover the loading time with damaging the enemy which most times distrct people so they look around buying my Gauss the time to load

and with an dual Gauss build you dont care about precharging much because you simply have only a single weapon you need to fire, you can put your Gauss in 6 weapongroups so you have an bright green light on your hud that tells you when the Gauss is ready, doesnt work when you have multiple weapongroups because more weapon Goups = less lights^^

that is in my opinion made the gauss charge up bad, because it simply reduced the Gauss from an viable longrange weapon for most mechs with a few Ballistic slots and close range weaponry, to an Boating for perfect use weapon and this is not ok becasue the gauss was always al heavy Longrange weapon the counterpart to the AC20 and both wepons fullfilled their roles very good cause nobody wants to be in front of an Atlas with an AC20 same it was for the Gauss it was a a factor that i always considered it when an enemy had it cause i did know i can not easily approach him,

now oh a Gauss and i have a fast mech well i will be close before he gets the first shot off and/or evade his fire with cover no danger for me and when i get close he will be busted same like the Gauss mechs before the charge up just that the had a chance killing me before i get close

[JigglyMoobs]

Morderian, on 19 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

jiggly, sry but the Charge up does not make your shots more accurate for the simple reason that your targets are moving ,and they will be in cover before you gauss is loaded, and your mouse movement is slowed when you hold and button constantly because there is more pressure on your mouse meaning you mouse gets slower which also makes your aim slower and less accurate, or allys will jump in front of you when the Gauss is loaded (another Big reason i dislike the Gauss change that already did waste so many possibilitys to shoot)

You just need to adjust your mouse technique a little. If your mouse sensitivity is lower and comfortable to begin with, for example, it won't affect you as much. Before MWO, I played a lot of Quake and CS. With practice, veteran players in Quake were getting 40% - 50% accuracy on targets that were a lot smaller and moving around a lot more than the targets in MWO, and doing so while holding down the mouse button. So you can get used to it.

You do have problems some times with targets of opportunity disappearing before you can fire, but I think it's a fair trade off. If you have Adv Zoom now with the 2000 m/s projectile speed and 0 charge up time, this gun would be way too dominant. We'd all be using the Gauss rifle and this thread would be about how it's ruining the game by being over powered.

Quote

your pre charging also does not work exept for dual Gauss and Gauss PPCs builds and Jumpsnipers, for the simple reason that you need lots of concentration for one weapon to keep it charged, not good for people who use it as an longrange support weapon

But if you are using as long range support, aren't you just concentrating on using that weapon anyways? At close range, I don't think the charge up is as much of an issue.

Quote

also it reduces your oversight of the Battlefield because that concentration is missing somewhere

I believe this is called skill. Ok, ok, tbh I have gotten killed a number of times while losing SA in just the way you describe. As a result, however, I started practicing conscienciously getting out of my tunnel vision and checking the tactical map on a regular basis, and guess what, it's made me a better player!

Quote

and we have no Ballistic that can fill this role instaed of the Gauss because all other Ballistics are either mid and shortrange weapons (AC10/20) or DPS weapons (AC2/5) both not an option as an longrange support weapon on mechs that dont have 2-4 Ballistic slots (and if my mech has that many, hey for what i use srms and laser 4 AC5/2 do the same and more effective)

of course that is no issue for Jumpsnipers and Dual Gauss /PPC Gauss combos because i have wepons that have the same role long range fire so i either hit them with two Gauss rifles because i only need 1 mousebutton, i load my gauss when i jump up or my PPC will cover the loading time with damaging the enemy which most times distrct people so they look around buying my Gauss the time to load

and with an dual Gauss build you dont care about precharging much because you simply have only a single weapon you need to fire, you can put your Gauss in 6 weapongroups so you have an bright green light on your hud that tells you when the Gauss is ready, doesnt work when you have multiple weapongroups because more weapon Goups = less lights^^

What is this mythical green light that you speak of? I have never seen it in my hud.

But you are right on this, except I don't think the problem is the charge up time, but the too short charge-hold time. I actually tried this in my DDC when the GR changes first happened. What I found was that it was easy to deal with charge up - just charge up while shooting my laser. What made this not work was that, on an atlas, you need to torso twist to protect the GR. Unfortunately, if you do this and pre-charge, you often don't have enough time to bring the cursor back on-target before the GR decharges, which then screws up your whole firing sequence. This meant I could no longer use it to brawl easily, and that took away too much firepower from my mech. If there was a longer hold time, it should not be a problem.

Quote

that is in my opinion made the gauss charge up bad, because it simply reduced the Gauss from an viable longrange weapon for most mechs with a few Ballistic slots and close range weaponry, to an Boating for perfect use weapon and this is not ok becasue the gauss was always al heavy Longrange weapon the counterpart to the AC20 and both wepons fullfilled their roles very good cause nobody wants to be in front of an Atlas with an AC20 same it was for the Gauss it was a a factor that i always considered it when an enemy had it cause i did know i can not easily approach him,

Well, there are a couple of ways of looking at this. One is that GR is now the perfect weapon for a sniper build, which means that there is now a niche job for someone with that kind of disposition. Personally, this I think having more niche jobs on the battle field adds to the depth and strategy in the game, making it a bit more fun. This way, you see a GR shot, and you start taking cover and looking for the ******* sniper.

OTOH, I feel for your pain regarding the loss your wub wub GR. I'd like to suggest that the compromise solution is not to ditch the current mechanic, but decrease reload time, and increase the charge hold. If you have enough charge hold time, using the pre-charging mechanism should not take as much concentration since the opportunity to fire would no longer be so limited.

Quote

now oh a Gauss and i have a fast mech well i will be close before he gets the first shot off and/or evade his fire with cover no danger for me and when i get close he will be busted same like the Gauss mechs before the charge up just that the had a chance killing me before i get close

If you are a fast mech now getting close to a GR wielding enemy is more dangerous than ever for the simple reason that the projectile is so fast you no longer have to lead light mechs by a significant amount, if at all. If you have enough torso twist, or the rifle is on an arm mount, you are deadly to all lights including even the spider.

[Morderian]

well regarding mouse techinique you know i dont have an 200 EUR gaming mouse where i can adjust everything i want, just an normal mouse out of the supermarket with 1000 dpi so i need to play with high sensitivity or else i am too slow for to hit fast moving targets (whish i had a better mouse but thats too expensive) also i dont like permantlly pushing my mous buttons (thats why i at least hope they make it an click to load click to fire mechanic so for me i would be easily able to use the Gauss on all my mechs again)

with longrange support weapon i mean a weapon that can fight off jumpsnipers and harass snipers while i dont pack in any othe longrange weponry exept maybe an LRM launcher for finish fleeing targets, but like it is now the gauss became near useless againt jumpsnipers (exept they stay at the same place all the time but that are no Jumpsnipers)

the green light well take an Phract an pack the Gauss in every wepon group and watch the weapon group indicators at the sides of the crosshair

yes the Gauss indeed became a very good sniper weapon but for me its no fun using it always in the same two boring builds either with PPC or a second Gauss even if the two are my favourite weapons i want to combine my GR with Srms and lasers so i have an vialble longrange support for the build an can fight in the now always more and more common trenchwarfares because srm and medlaser cant kill snipers on 600+ (everytime i hear someone crying that we should basecamp i get that lust to shoot him for cowardice^^)

but i like your idea of increasing chargehold time also a possibilty if you combine it with click to load click to fire (so i also can put my GR back on keyboard on my mechs that use it as 3rd or fourth weapon^^ and one of my bigest issues with the Gr we have now asside from the missning anti poptart feature is gone)

Edited by Morderian, 20 October 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Sephlock]

Diablobo, on 18 October 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Now that the gauss rifle has been nerfed into oblivion, the AC20 reigns supreme. Heck, even AC10s and AC5s are more common because there is no viable sniper weapon. The Gauss served as a perfect counter to 20 Jagers and all the other brawlers who close and blast away.

The idea behind the nerf was to make Gauss/PPC combos less effective, but since the PPC heat has been raised, they are even less common than the Gauss. There is no reason to nerf the Gauss anymore. We need another weapon to counter AC20 and other autocannon snipers. Bring back the old LRMs

FTFY.

.

[Dirkdaring]

It's stupid. It was nerfed due to poptarts running 2xERPPC and 1xGauss.

HORRIBLE change, HORRIBLE implementation. Show me in any BT book or in any lore whatsoever about this moronic mechanic.

This game is becoming less Battletech as time goes on. The Devs have absolutely no idea what they are doing for balance, they are just tossing mechanics blindly.

[Roughneck45]

Diablobo, on 18 October 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

The idea behind the nerf was to make Gauss/PPC combos less effective, but since the PPC heat has been raised, they are even less common than the Gauss.

This made me lol pretty hard.

[Warge]

Christof Romulus, on 18 October 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

No, this weapon should not be changed back to what it was.

Unless min range for Gauss. 100-150 m.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I was really down on the gauss change as i had just built a gauss boat that morning. I gave it a long rest and came back. It took a ton of practice but now I love it and run it on several mechs. I think my only complaint would be they took it from inexperienced players because they will be overwhelmed at the operation at first. Its not natural using it.

[GMAK]

Syllogy, on 18 October 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

I like the new Gauss. It helps me conserve ammo instead of wasting it on snapshots.

You should be the president!

[JigglyMoobs]

Morderian, on 20 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

well regarding mouse techinique you know i dont have an 200 EUR gaming mouse where i can adjust everything i want, just an normal mouse out of the supermarket with 1000 dpi so i need to play with high sensitivity or else i am too slow for to hit fast moving targets (whish i had a better mouse but thats too expensive) also i dont like permantlly pushing my mous buttons (thats why i at least hope they make it an click to load click to fire mechanic so for me i would be easily able to use the Gauss on all my mechs again)

Dude I just run an old Logitech G5 laser mouse using stock windows drivers (good thing about this mouse is that it does 500 hz input rate anyways) with 2 useable buttons and a mouse wheel. The key is to use good technique and a good mouse pad. I use a Razer Steelpad, which is a big heavy cloth pad with a very smooth and consistent surface. You can get a similar combo today for less than $50 in the US. Probably similar prices in Europe.

Then you also have to use a comfy sensitivity, and undertake tweaks to minimize input lag. Huge discussions on some of the Quake Live and CS forums regarding this:

eg: http://www.quakelive...5105#post275105

Well, ok, that's some pretty dense stuff, maybe not worth your time to go through all that if you just play casually.

Quote

the green light well take an Phract an pack the Gauss in every wepon group and watch the weapon group indicators at the sides of the crosshair

Oo good idea, didn't think of that!

Quote

yes the Gauss indeed became a very good sniper weapon but for me its no fun using it always in the same two boring builds either with PPC or a second Gauss even if the two are my favourite weapons i want to combine my GR with Srms and lasers so i have an vialble longrange support for the build an can fight in the now always more and more common trenchwarfares because srm and medlaser cant kill snipers on 600+ (everytime i hear someone crying that we should basecamp i get that lust to shoot him for cowardice^^)

So, I'm going to give GR another try in some of my non-sniper mechs:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8446e06eb53bd9f

My theory is that since AC/2 has the same projectile speed as the GR, I can put the two together on the same weapon group, blast away at my target with AC/2 until Gauss is charged, and release. Then repeat.

Still can't torso twist, but maybe if I blast people in the face with the AC/2 it will make it harder for them to aim at my side torso.

Quote

but i like your idea of increasing chargehold time also a possibilty if you combine it with click to load click to fire (so i also can put my GR back on keyboard on my mechs that use it as 3rd or fourth weapon^^ and one of my bigest issues with the Gr we have now asside from the missning anti poptart feature is gone)

Yeah, I think there's a consensus from both sides of the issue that this would be a good idea. I hope PGi listens to the community and implements this.

[Morderian]

actually i dont really play casually oriented i have some goals especially when CW comes around (also dont like the wording casuals of today are CoD kids not the hobby gamers from old times) and i find it hard to find the right sensitivity options for mwo mostly also because the fps in the game are atm not that high (this hopefully changes with DX11 when the game is running more effecient i know people who had to stop playing because of 12vs12 ruining their fps), but back to topic

well the Gauss atm also i think has an huge advantage when you use them as Jumpsniper weapon because all drawbacks are countered and only the ER-PPC heat is staying (easily countered by using standard PPC) while the Jumpsniper gets all advantages of the Gauss and has no drawbacks (still dont understand why i see less and less jumpsniper but maybe ac boats are now easier to use then adapting a bit, well ok they do also a lot more damage because they shoot the whole mechs to shred instead of destroying single parts of it)

Edited by Morderian, 20 October 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Lightfoot]

The new Gauss can't be operated with a Joystick, it's mechanic is based on drag-clicking the Mouse and this is just not possible with a Joystick. This exclusion is unfair to the 15-20% of players who use a Joystick.

More importantly, it was unnecessary. All that was ever needed was to increase the recharge time to 6 to 7 seconds as has been done in every previous iteration of MechWarrior to balance long range.

If you really want to keep the pre-charge then make it Joystick friendly by having it hold the charge for 5 seconds minimum.

Lastly, the idea that a sniper weapon only allows you a second to make the shot is just nerf-logic (logic that is derived solely to support a nerf) and is not how one would carefully aim a single shot.