501 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Gnatter, on 18 November 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

In terms of tabletop, the pilot would be wearing a neuro-helmet and not looking out through a viewport. I think this is the main issue with how the Commando's cockpit is set up. That and that sensor.

actually, in TT, the Neurohelmets were not Virtual Sim HUDS, so yeah, you did look out your viewports.

[Bishop Steiner]

haruko, on 18 November 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Bishop, you do realize the Commando you highlighted is the one I resized to fit right? The one on the right is the original.

actually, no I was not, thought it was simply differing perspectives. Irregardless, the basic concept stands, though without a person model next to it, hard to say. Will simply take your word for it. ANd make no mistake, they should be taller, as should the Spider. Scale has always been whack, but according to CGL, Mechs range from 8 meters to 14, not over 17 like in here.

Overall scale wise, the Jenner and Hunchback are pretty spot on,l though I don't know about it's cockpit, which could be too small, even if the rest is approximately in scale.

The Catapult and Atlas are nauseating offenders for being oversized though, especially because the Atlas is basically taller AND significantly wider than everything else.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 November 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

The Catapult and Atlas are nauseating offenders for being oversized though, especially because the Atlas is basically taller AND significantly wider than everything else.

WARNING!
I have yet to form a definitive opinion on what I am about to say.
This is mostly me thinking/typing 'out loud' and as such should be take with a grain of salt.

I have to wonder, now that I think about it, if part of the reason for some mechs being oversized intentionally, is them fighting against some of the old standards (IE the bad ones, IE only assault mechs are worth anything)

The Catapult has at various times in this game been one of the more competitive mechs (even being oversized) as has the Centurion.

Yes, I will agree the Centurion is to big - but how much worse would it's hard-to-kill reputation be if it was as small as the Hunchback?

Atlas may not be the strongest assault mech out there (though there are many who would argue otherwise) but if it was as small as it 'should' be.....

I could very easily see the people at PGI (and IGP? who knows... [the Shadow Knows!]) looking at the older games and thinking:
"Hmm, no one, given much choice, piloted the smaller mechs... why?"
"Well.... in mech4 it wasn't that much harder to hit a smaller mech than a bigger mech - what if we changed the sizes? would that help?"
"Couldn't hurt."

Now I missed out on closed beta - only found out about MWO the day the founders program ended - but I have been told by several of what I understand to be reputable sources (Koniving for one) that the Awesome didn't "suck" until after they introduced the newer game mechanics, such as DHS and the Stalker (not neccesarily because of those in particular, but as the game evolved) but that may have simply been because the only other assault was the Atlas.

Well... hmm.... forgot where all else I was going with that.... ....

At the very least I can almost guarantee you that at least part of the reason for the Centurion being 'over-sized' is to counter it's zombie, whether it was meant to counter it back then or not, that would be why they keep it that way.
On that thought, I would be willing to bet that the other 'over-sized' mechs have some similar reason that PGI keeps them 'over-sized'.

[NautilusCommand]

Shar Wolf, on 18 November 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

WARNING!
I have yet to form a definitive opinion on what I am about to say.
This is mostly me thinking/typing 'out loud' and as such should be take with a grain of salt.

I have to wonder, now that I think about it, if part of the reason for some mechs being oversized intentionally, is them fighting against some of the old standards (IE the bad ones, IE only assault mechs are worth anything)

The Catapult has at various times in this game been one of the more competitive mechs (even being oversized) as has the Centurion.

Yes, I will agree the Centurion is to big - but how much worse would it's hard-to-kill reputation be if it was as small as the Hunchback?

Atlas may not be the strongest assault mech out there (though there are many who would argue otherwise) but if it was as small as it 'should' be.....

I could very easily see the people at PGI (and IGP? who knows... [the Shadow Knows!]) looking at the older games and thinking:
"Hmm, no one, given much choice, piloted the smaller mechs... why?"
"Well.... in mech4 it wasn't that much harder to hit a smaller mech than a bigger mech - what if we changed the sizes? would that help?"
"Couldn't hurt."

Now I missed out on closed beta - only found out about MWO the day the founders program ended - but I have been told by several of what I understand to be reputable sources (Koniving for one) that the Awesome didn't "suck" until after they introduced the newer game mechanics, such as DHS and the Stalker (not neccesarily because of those in particular, but as the game evolved) but that may have simply been because the only other assault was the Atlas.

Well... hmm.... forgot where all else I was going with that.... ....

At the very least I can almost guarantee you that at least part of the reason for the Centurion being 'over-sized' is to counter it's zombie, whether it was meant to counter it back then or not, that would be why they keep it that way.
On that thought, I would be willing to bet that the other 'over-sized' mechs have some similar reason that PGI keeps them 'over-sized'.

Hmmmmm on that thought that could explain the fact that ALL light mechs are too damn small *cough* commando *cough*

As I've been told that the Cicada is about to size if not just a little bit bigger than it should be. But considering that light mechs are not as big as they should be they would be just a tad bit smaller than a Cicada thus making lights like paper weights; even if it pains me to say it. The Cicada dies too easy (being huge and a really REALLY stupid CT size/hitbox. Lights don't go fast enough to justify bigger size, nor does the ability to hit then as is.

Edited by NautilusCommand, 18 November 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

NautilusCommand, on 18 November 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Hmmmmm on that thought that could explain the fact that ALL light mechs are too damn small *cough* commando *cough*

That was one of the points, yes.

Edit: stupid absentmindedness

Think of how much squishier they would be if they were the 'proper' size.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 18 November 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[NautilusCommand]

Shar Wolf, on 18 November 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

That was one of the points, yes.

Edit: stupid absentmindedness

Think of how much squishier they would be if they were the 'proper' size.

That is the point I made when I edited my post

[Alaskan Nobody]

NautilusCommand, on 18 November 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

That is the point I made when I edited my post

And you were editing mine as I wrote/edited mine so fair is fair

[DirePhoenix]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 November 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

We have no idea how physically large/dense, a reactor is in Btech. Since they can fit into personal skimmers, I would say pretty compat, though. So place the reactor essentially in the belly, below the 6 rack. As for the 6 rack itself, I agree, it could be in the way, but that is assuming the exhaust ports and feeds are directly behind it, and rarely are things so linearly bundled in a combat vesicle, because space IS always at a premium. I could easily see each set of 3 being fed from the magazine along the sides, between the rack and the exhaust ports on the torso. If so, that frees up even more.

Well, we sort of know how big battletech reactors are. At least, we know a minimum size, because they have tonnage. A standard 150-rated engine weighs in at 6.5 tons. I'm going to assume these are metric tons because everything else in the game is in metric. So that means 6500 kg. The density of Lead is 11.3g/cm^3. Lead is a pretty dense material, and it's probably used to an extent in the reactor's shielding, but the other components are very likely to have a much lower density.

Assuming that this "reactor" is a solid block of lead (which we know it isn't), the minimum volume a 6.5t engine could take up is 572,682 cm^3... 573 liters, and that's IF it were a solid block of lead. So we know it HAS to be larger than that. Probably much larger considering the other less-dense components and cavities within the reactor. Other things that need to go in that Center Torso besides the engine and SRM rack: Gyros (2t) and Center Torso Structure.

[Bishop Steiner]

DirePhoenix, on 18 November 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Well, we sort of know how big battletech reactors are. At least, we know a minimum size, because they have tonnage. A standard 150-rated engine weighs in at 6.5 tons. I'm going to assume these are metric tons because everything else in the game is in metric. So that means 6500 kg. The density of Lead is 11.3g/cm^3. Lead is a pretty dense material, and it's probably used to an extent in the reactor's shielding, but the other components are very likely to have a much lower density.

Assuming that this "reactor" is a solid block of lead (which we know it isn't), the minimum volume a 6.5t engine could take up is 572,682 cm^3... 573 liters, and that's IF it were a solid block of lead. So we know it HAS to be larger than that. Probably much larger considering the other less-dense components and cavities within the reactor. Other things that need to go in that Center Torso besides the engine and SRM rack: Gyros (2t) and Center Torso Structure.

probably true, to a degree, although we also know they are partly made of space magic. Also, being fusion reactors, normal containment is not possible, as if I recall the physics right (and I probably do not) it would consume itself using physical shielding, hence it would be contained within a magnetic bubble, with secondary shielding outside. Definitely not lending itself to compact density. Though they also have brief case sized fusion reactors in one of the old tros or such, I forget which, and we know that there are vehicles like the size of a VW bug or smaller with fusion reactors (the Savannah Master, por ejemplo).

As for the gyros, the higher placed, the more sensible, as it would detect yaw and pitch far earlier, one reason our inner ear is such a good gyro. I honestly envision then just below the shoulder armor in the Commando's back.

[Hexenhammer]

This both awesome and creepy at the same time.

And keep going. I'd like to see every mech done

[Rina Fujimoto]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 November 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

the basic concept stands, though without a person model next to it.

Red areas are space taken up by equipment or internals in the head:


Here's a cut-away of the interior, looks like you could fit someone in there right?



Nope, go look at the first image and look at this one again, you can't fit in there.


Nope. Nope. Nope. If the cockpit was barebones someone small could fit but when you put things in there like the chair, the control console, the monitors, the armor, you can't fit, at all, you don't have the arm or leg room to do anything as complicated as piloting a mech.

[Karyudo ds]

Shar Wolf, on 18 November 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

That was one of the points, yes.

Edit: stupid absentmindedness

Think of how much squishier they would be if they were the 'proper' size.

Well, in Battletech I think they were squishy period. Their advantage wasn't in not being able to be hit like in is Mechwarrior games, but lower operating costs etc. Side effect of digitally missing the finer points of a game's design I suppose.

haruko, on 18 November 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Red areas are space taken up by equipment or internals in the head:

Here's a cut-away of the interior, looks like you could fit someone in there right?

I'm guessing that monocle goes back into the head like that because no one can normally see that.

[DirePhoenix]

Are child soldiers frowned upon in the Battletech Universe? If not, here's a new batch of Commando pilots.

[Fury9er]

Quote

Also, being fusion reactors, normal containment is not possible, as if I recall the physics right (and I probably do not) it would consume itself using physical shielding, hence it would be contained within a magnetic bubble, with secondary shielding outside.

Assuming a mild injection of reality into the space magic, a fusion reactor needs the plasma loop to be inside an evacuated chamber - the plasma is very low density and would cool down and fizzle out if it was to touch anything or become contaminated.

I read somwhere that mech reactors use tungsten carbide for the sheilding.

Here is another thought regarding engine mass and volume - perhaps some of the mass accounts for the myomers themselves or the MCUs that assign and control power to them.

[HlynkaCG]

Loving this thread, and have have actually been inspired to try something similar.

That said looking at your Commando cockpit issue. It's pretty clear that there is a disconnect between the VC mesh and the exterior mesh. It seems to me that you have two options modify the exterior mesh to match the cockpit or make a new cockpit.

In regards to the first it would seem fairly simple to mirrior the viewpoint along the mech's X (left/right) axis removing the sensor bundle and allowing the cockpit to occupy the entire head as it did in MW2 Mercs.

The other option is to make a new cockpit in which case I would point out that Cameras are not guns the sensors do not need to occupy the entire head. there's no reason that you cant recess your new cockpit into the upper torso and space behind the sensor "eyepatch" in much the same way you have your Spider pilot "standing" in his.

in either case, keep up the good work!

[Rina Fujimoto]

HlynkaCG, on 19 November 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Loving this thread, and have have actually been inspired to try something similar.

That said looking at your Commando cockpit issue. It's pretty clear that there is a disconnect between the VC mesh and the exterior mesh. It seems to me that you have two options modify the exterior mesh to match the cockpit or make a new cockpit.

In regards to the first it would seem fairly simple to mirrior the viewpoint along the mech's X (left/right) axis removing the sensor bundle and allowing the cockpit to occupy the entire head as it did in MW2 Mercs.

The other option is to make a new cockpit in which case I would point out that Cameras are not guns the sensors do not need to occupy the entire head. there's no reason that you cant recess your new cockpit into the upper torso and space behind the sensor "eyepatch" in much the same way you have your Spider pilot "standing" in his.

in either case, keep up the good work!

The whole point of the whole debate we've been having was that the way it is shown in-game doesn't work. I could make someone fit in there if I throw out what is shown in-game, but if we're talking in-game, go drop in a commando in-game and look to your right, notice something? The entire eye sensor occupies the head to your right, all of it, the entire thing, and then notice how huge the view port for the Commando is, it's massive compared to what is on the mesh, in order for it to look anything like that, your pilot would have to be 3 feet tall or the Commando much much larger than it already is. And you can't cant cant cant cant cant recess it into the torso, the internals leave no room, and the neck takes up that space, the neck can't be lowered without taking the Commando's head lower with it; it isn't too clear from looking at the in-game model but the Commando's head sits on a slanted surface so the neck is slanted too, so you can't uniformly lower it, now, I COULD recess it into the neck a bit but the opening is small and, like you said, would require that the eye sensor not be in the way and that the pilot would sit in the center, but then he can't look out the already miniscule and insanely restricting tiny viewport!

tl;dr
The in-game Commando cockpit does not correlate with the actual model at all.

And the pilot does fit in the Spider, he doesn't sit entirely in the head, he sits recessed into the CT of the Spider, this is reflected accurately in-game too, look to your right or left in the cockpit in-game, you can see that your eye level is a little above either side of where the cockpit meets the CT. The only issue the pilot would have in the Spider is getting in and out of it quickly since (what I'm assuming is) the entry hatch is pretty small but not impossible to fit through, it's about as large as your average tank entry hatch.

Infact, I don't think I ever uploaded images on how the pilot sits in the Spider, I'll do it when I get home.

[Rina Fujimoto]

So I've decided to clarify the whole Commando thing today, I'll be doing a lot more as Thanksgiving break kicks up.

First of all, I'd like to apologize in advance, I'm not using the uh...ehem...traditional pilot model I always use, since I'm in a hurry and I can't be assed to open a new scene to redo it with the proper pilot model, but for the record, for reference, Chihaya here is 5'3", the in-game pilot is 6'1"


To begin, here is the in-game Commando cockpit, notice the red outline, that's the outline of the eye on the exterior, notice how it extends below? That means you're sitting slightly above the bottom of the eye:


Here's what the Commando cockpit actually looks like, the mesh itself, now as you can see, it looks nothing like the eye really..


And here is how it actually appears in-game, this is what you're piloting when you play a Commando, this isn't an edit or anything, this ACTUALLY appears in-game whenever you play, it's not visible to anyone but yourself of course, and you'll never see it obviously because well...you can't, and when you duck into 3rd person mode it's disabled and you get the regular view.

And no, he's not recessed into the chest, he's sitting on the edge of the front of the chest.


Now as you can see...the entire cockpit is bigger than the Commando's actual head, now you might say, well someone small could fight right! Well like I said Chihaya is 5'3" so...

Well, she appears to fit right! Looks good right?


But if I show you a cut away, you'll see that the chair itself takes up the whole damn cockpit, and clips out the rear, not too big of a deal though, chairs can fold and be make smaller right?


Yeah but see...cockpits are a lot more than just simple chairs, if you add in all the controls and panels...


There's 0 room! I can just barely even fit the feet into the pedals through a tiny slit, not to mention the entire viewport is obscured!

Well, how about we just shrink down the cockpit to actually fit in the Commando and the Commando's eye outline?


Looks good right? Well...except for the fact that...you'd have to be around 11 inches to even fit in it....
tl;dr in-game pilot is around 12 inches tall when you're inside the Commando, not possible at all to fit anything in there as it is.

Also please, PLEASE REMEMBER, THE EYE SENSOR TAKES UP THE ENTIRE RIGHT SIDE OF THE EYE, LOOK TO YOUR RIGHT IN-GAME IN A COMMANDO, YOU'LL SEE IT THERE, YOU CAN'T MOVE ANYTHING AROUND! If anything, I made this entire thing with the assumption that the eye sensor isn't there, and it still didn't fit.

And for fun, here's how you could fix the Commando cockpit:


It's roomy enough to fit all the panels with a big enough view! Although, it doesn't look as cool...

Regardless, I love the Commando, and the way it is right now, even if it isn't in-scale

I know someone's going to try to tell me to just have them sit recessed in the chest again, I don't have the time to do more screenshots since I have to go but I'll add some more later explaining why you can't do that, to summarize, you can't because the neck cannot be modified in any way at all or it becomes disconnected from the head, and technically a pilot could sit in the center of the neck but that would require him to be dead center in the head and would be a little cramped. Basically all the scale issues with the Commando could be solved just by removing the eye sensor and having the pilot sit in the center, but in order to keep the current single eye config, you'd have to give him a neurohelm that lets him see through external cameras, rather than rely on a viewport.

Well, that's all for now, I'll do Spider stuff later tonight, this time for real:


p.s. if you want some cute pin ups check my profile huehehuahehue

Edited by haruko, 26 November 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Mighty Spike]

p.s. if you want some cute pin ups check my profile huehehuahehue <---- You mean Mechs right?

fantastic thread Haruko! +1

[Alaskan Nobody]

I would imagine, that if MWO manages to last, that that would be one of those things that "eventually" gets fixed.
IE, like how only now is Blizzard fixing the original models in WoW

[Rina Fujimoto]

Also just letting you guys know I haven't forgotten about all my projects either, and I really am working on that BT comic, not really sure if I plan on sharing it here though...not sure if it would be everyones cup of tea...

For now I'm mainly just doing a splash page for each character but it's in a very rough planning stage with just a draft before being finalized.