251 replies to this topic

[Ashvins]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 October 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

STHAP! The ability to inflict an equal amount of damage as a Single AC20 on TT is to powerful? You realize 2 AC20 on TT would do the equivalent MW:O damage to two separate locations.

So a Raven on TT would take 20 damage to 13 points of side torso armor, then internals AND 20 points to the 16 points of armor (then internals) on its leg If I fired two AC20s at it! So is losing a leg in one salvo or a leg and side torso worse?

The problem here is your comparing this to TT. This is NOT TT nor will it ever be close. PGI will not reduce the ROF of ALL weapons to 1 shot every 10 sec, nor will the set heat to TT values. Any weapon with a rof under 5 sec is firing at at least 2x the speed of TT which is EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME. Heat dissipates a lot faster and your heat threshold is much much higher. In essence an ac 40 mech fires 2.25 times as fast and can fire 3x longer than TT without heat shutdown even with ghost heat. AC 40's are OP no if and's or but's about it.

Using your TT analogy in TT with current MWO stats over a period of 3 turns an AC 40 jeager can fire 14 ac 20 rounds vs 6, have them hit for 40 to each location vs 20, and have an equal time til shut down from heat for those rounds. So Yes I'd rather have a TT AC 40 mech vs what we have in game at current even with 1/2 armor values it's less devastating than one would be in TT.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ashvins, on 23 October 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

The problem here is your comparing this to TT. This is NOT TT nor will it ever be close. PGI will not reduce the ROF of ALL weapons to 1 shot every 10 sec, nor will the set heat to TT values. Any weapon with a rof under 5 sec is firing at at least 2x the speed of TT which is EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME. Heat dissipates a lot faster and your heat threshold is much much higher. In essence an ac 40 mech fires 2.25 times as fast and can fire 3x longer than TT without heat shutdown even with ghost heat. AC 40's are OP no if and's or but's about it.

Using your TT analogy in TT with current MWO stats over a period of 3 turns an AC 40 jeager can fire 14 ac 20 rounds vs 6, have them hit for 40 to each location vs 20, and have an equal time til shut down from heat for those rounds. So Yes I'd rather have a TT AC 40 mech vs what we have in game at current even with 1/2 armor values it's less devastating than one would be in TT.

I didn't say they did. id I say they needed to slow anything down. I am pointing out how foolish it is to complain about 30 point alphas and 40 point alphas when you have double the armor.It still takes 2 AC20 with Pin point accuracy the same number of shots to equal a single AC20 on TT. BUT it uses twice the tonnage to do it! 2 AC20 rounds on TT would remove around 80% of the Atlas Center Torso armor (depending on front's total) in MW:O it only removes about 40%. And yet folks complain! I have to use twice as much ammo to get equal effect. And people complain! I am being pampered in this rendition of the MechWarrior IP!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 October 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Crockdaddy]

Lubalin, on 20 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

2 shots from an AC40 Jagermech at like 500m and my atlas has lost 2/3 of its weapons.

This is way imbalanced.

When I bring 1 ac20 on a mech, getting kills is insanely easy due to such accurate damage. Anything comparable has serious downsides. 2 ppcs generate a ton of heat. 2 LL are tough to get pinpoint accuracy. And that's just comparable to a single ac20.

2x ac20 is out of control. 40 damage, pinpoint accuracy, that works at such a long range is way too much. A mech shouldn't be able to fire 2 at once so often without overheating.

Ac20 needs a more drastic range limitation and a huge heat penalty when firing more than 1.

Oh, and L2P, kill at range, don't get close, etc. is true, but tactics don't fix poor balance. Cheers.

I kinda have to agree with most of the other guys. Something else happened to make you die so quickly. AC20's while powerful and quite fearsome are not nearly as OP as they once were. Frankly, most AC20 mechs get focused down quickly once Target Info happens. Quite likely if you were hit with Twin AC20s twice your fat chasis was taking other shots as well be it AC5/10/Gauss/2 and likely you may not have noticed. I have at times noticed my paper doll showing damage but I never realized I was shot because my game client didn't show *shake* from impact immediately.

[Crockdaddy]

the huanglong, on 20 October 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

They are easily countered if they are found early but that's not the issue. Things that can't do half the damage are just as easily countered.

Pinpoint AC40 usages is not in the spirit of the battletech mechanics on which the game is based. It's not fun for anyone but stat-padding self aggrandizing bigmouths. Those players should try real builds instead of hoping there is a lot of AS7-RS© in the enemy team each drop.

I am not sure what game you are playing, but I find AC20 game play not all that easy unless I have a solid group covering for my weak shouldered a** ... Sure, I can clean up kills quick and will **** face if you ignore me, but that rarely happens. More often in my AC20 Jag I become the center of unpleasant attention and against lights life is hard unless I happen to pop one or one gets stupid and slows / stops by me. I agree they are powerful, but they should be considering all the risk you take with limited ammo, XL engine ... brawl level distance for effective engagement etc.

[Ashvins]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 October 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

I didn't say they did. id I say they needed to slow anything down. I am pointing out how foolish it is to complain about 30 point alphas and 40 point alphas when you have double the armor.It still takes 2 AC20 with Pin point accuracy the same number of shots to equal a single AC20 on TT. BUT it uses twice the tonnage to do it! 2 AC20 rounds on TT would remove around 80% of the Atlas Center Torso armor (depending on front's total) in MW:O it only removes about 40%. And yet folks complain! I have to use twice as much ammo to get equal effect. And people complain! I am being pampered in this rendition of the MechWarrior IP!

In a sense you are, but there is still the fact that in game those AC 20's fires 2.25 times as fast, granted the ammo expenditure is greater than in TT but the DPS is much higher. That is the big factor, Armor should have been increased to 2.5 to 3 times TT for the ROF of weapons in this game, with a corresponding increase in ammo for ballistic/missile weapons. Energy was balanced pretty well in general but IMO there still needs to be more tweaking in the Ballistic/missile area.

[Sephlock]

Was this the same Atlas that got cored in one volley of LRMs from a single mech, despite all of the missiles hitting the front of he Atlas' fully armored body?

[Joseph Mallan]

Ashvins, on 23 October 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

In a sense you are, but there is still the fact that in game those AC 20's fires 2.25 times as fast, granted the ammo expenditure is greater than in TT but the DPS is much higher. That is the big factor, Armor should have been increased to 2.5 to 3 times TT for the ROF of weapons in this game, with a corresponding increase in ammo for ballistic/missile weapons. Energy was balanced pretty well in general but IMO there still needs to be more tweaking in the Ballistic/missile area.

So I have to fire twice as much to do the same amount of damage with twice as many weapons! Is that what you are saying? Even if I am firing faster, I am firing twice as much to do the same level of damage as I can do with a single AC20 on TT. Remember 10 seconds is both your and my fire. That is 5 seconds per player per turn. Whats going to happen when there are Ultra 20s on the field? If we cannot even handle a 40 point Alpha, how much meltdown will there be when I can bring two Ultra20s on a Mech (a Medium ta boot)! You will see armor fly off at TT speeds! 80 point Alphas!!!

[Purlana]

Ashvins, on 23 October 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Using your TT analogy in TT with current MWO stats over a period of 3 turns an AC 40 jeager can fire 14 ac 20 rounds vs 6, have them hit for 40 to each location vs 20, and have an equal time til shut down from heat for those rounds. So Yes I'd rather have a TT AC 40 mech vs what we have in game at current even with 1/2 armor values it's less devastating than one would be in TT.

40 DMG in TT would instantly kill or maim some mechs

Edited by Purlana, 23 October 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Purlana, on 23 October 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

40 DMG in TT would instantly kill or maim some mechs

40 damage strips 80% of an Atlas's CT armor on TT. a second 40 point salvo will pretty much clear the IS.

[warp103]

@ op

You got hit with a known bug. it hit you back which had low HP.
There or other like shooting with same daul ac 20 where one registers or non registers.
So you got the short end of the stick. Others have fire point blank and did zero damage .{they got shorted}
Dual ac20 are not OP just another weapon that can be very deadly in the right hands or lucky hands.

[Ghogiel]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 October 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

A forty pinpoint is in this game is equal to a single AC20 on TT. You need 4 AC20 to match the punch of 2 TT AC20! 40 points on tabletop would equal 80 damage in MW:O. Do you have a Mech that can lay 80 pin point into a single location?

Am I supposed to be comparing the two?

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghogiel, on 23 October 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Am I supposed to be comparing the two?

If you want to, your call.

[Ghogiel]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 October 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

If you want to, your call.

I'll pass.


So about MWO.. how about those alphas eh?

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghogiel, on 23 October 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

I'll pass.


So about MWO.. how about those alphas eh?

Haven't seen one I couldn't handle in a years playing.

[MerryIguana]

Ive noticed alot more boomjags recently. 1 of them is a fun fight but a lance of them is gods judgement if they stick together.

[Ghogiel]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 October 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Haven't seen one I couldn't handle in a years playing.

Not a locust player?

Me either XD

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghogiel, on 23 October 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Not a locust player?

Me either XD

The Locust -5M sure, anything else... Well If I am playing that light, a twin AC20 alpha should ruin my Mech s I can handle that happening too!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 October 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Ashvins]

In the end it comes down to numbers, In TT the highest dps was 2.0 with an AC 20 in Game it's 5.0 with the AC 20. going by that stat alone Armor values should be at 2.5 times TT. Now if you look at other weapon systems you see an equal or greater theoretical increase in DPS. Most are about equal to the AC 20 in the DPS increase some (AC 10/LB 10x/AC 2) are higher a few (lasers due to time on target damage) less. To properly balance to TT values, armor needs to increase, with the ROF going down on a few weapons. In essence balancing was not done right which is what we are talking about. The pinpoint damage from game mechanics, coupled with the increased DPS of AC's, Ballistics, and PPC's imbalance all of those weapons compared to TT.

IMO there is one way to resolve this , increase armor values to 2.5 to 3 times TT values. it will bring time to kill up and bring the AC 20 back in line with TT. Ammo amounts should be increased to 2.5 to 3 times TT (needed if armor values increase) and would bring us to a closer representation of TT Battletech.

As far as Ultra AC 20's go, I shudder to think of how to balance them so they are not totally OP. Jam rate of 50-75% comes to mind but I know that wouldn't fly with the community. Restricting them to certain mechs would work but again the community would complain. I'm glad I don't have to decide on how to balance them.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ashvins, If I am using front loading damage weapons DpS don't mean a thing. A medium laser has to be on target 16 seconds to do 20 damage. An AC20 round needs to just hit the target in max effective range.

[Kain]

They are fine,

Sure they are annoying, but so are LRM boats, sporting a bunch of LRMs, or ppc mechs etc.

Just use teamwork to negate those builds, that's why MW:O is a team game.