251 replies to this topic

[Nryrony]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 February 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

AC20 and gauss have been punishing light Mechs with lucky shots for going on 30 years.

My point is that its no longer simple luck, its quite easy actually unless you are very unlucky and get a bugged shot.

Another one is that, at least for now, a player is a player and therefore equal - speed vs weapons, agility vs armor etc...

If that ever changes or 5 Assaults will have to face their tonnage lights, I'm fine.

And back to the AC20, my understanding of BT ACs is that it is not necessary a single shot, an AC (X) is a category for a weapon that deals X dmg in X time, while gun specifics shift between manufacturers..

It also wouldn't make the AC20 less impressive, just a bit more skill dependent and balanced.

Edited by Nryrony, 14 February 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[wanderer]

Why isn't the Hunchback-P reviled?

Worse heat and a moving target spreads the damage around, while dual 20's don't.

A light can and will survive 8 ML's fired at it, because most of the damage is either spread or wasted as the light gets out of firing radius.

A light that intersects twin 20's ends up in four pieces and can neither spread nor dodge part of the damage. And that's why the AC is king right now and the PPC queen. Mechwarior game series lasers used to function like AC's do in MWO- you hit with them, full damage, one spot, zap *****!

It ruined the damage system for 'Mechs, thus the current "burn" mechanic instead. If that damage system was bad for lasers, what does having a different graphics representation of the same system change?

Edited by wanderer, 14 February 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nryrony, on 14 February 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

My point is that its no longer simple luck, its quite easy actually unless you are very unlucky and get a bugged shot.

Another one is that, at least for now, a player is a player and therefore equal - speed vs weapons, agility vs armor etc...

If that ever changes or 5 Assaults will have to face their tonnage lights, I'm fine.

And back to the AC20, my understanding of BT ACs is that it is not necessary a single shot, an AC (X) is a category for a weapon that deals X dmg in X time, while gun specifics shift between manufacturers..

It also wouldn't make the AC20 less impressive, just a bit more skill dependent and balanced.

Your understanding is correct. I just chose to believe I have bought the Big Bore slow cyclic Heavy hitting single shell AC of choice. It is how I like my damage served. I have been a go big damage or go home player since the 70s. It's my preferred style. I don't cpmplain about Meta Builds except to point out that Pop Trating is not a thing in universe. other than that I see a Pop Tart I shout "Pull" and my wife exclaims, "You Dork" from behind me!
Have I mentioned I really Love the woman

[Varent]

Nryrony, on 14 February 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

My point is that its no longer simple luck, its quite easy actually unless you are very unlucky and get a bugged shot.

Another one is that, at least for now, a player is a player and therefore equal - speed vs weapons, agility vs armor etc...

If that ever changes or 5 Assaults will have to face their tonnage lights, I'm fine.

And back to the AC20, my understanding of BT ACs is that it is not necessary a single shot, an AC (X) is a category for a weapon that deals X dmg in X time, while gun specifics shift between manufacturers..

It also wouldn't make the AC20 less impressive, just a bit more skill dependent and balanced.

the ac20 from BT has no 'partial miss' factor.

When you have 20 damage from one shot and have put alot of weight, size and heat factor into it. To have a large portion of that miss is pretty devastating. Same would be true with all the large weapon groups, like ppc and gause for example.

Making this weapon have spread damage would essentially also create a large miss factor where alot of your damage has a chance of simply not hitting the target. It in addition simply makes this weapon another laser that has only (x) amount of times you can fire it.

This subject has been debated multiple times though. TBH the ac20 isnt the overpowering monstrosity you think it is. The same damage can be achieved for less weight/size/heat in many different ways. Also only a certain amount of mechs can even carry and wield the weapon effectively.

[TehSBGX]

And here I was, thinkin' people only ran AC/40 Jagers for the lulz. :3

[Nryrony]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

Making this weapon have spread damage would essentially also create a large miss factor where alot of your damage has a chance of simply not hitting the target.

Then why does my laser not deal instant dmg as well? Not to mention the amount of heat every laser generates which makes energy builds effectively useless unless you restrict yourself to 2 ppcs.

[Joseph Mallan]

TehSBGX, on 15 February 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

And here I was, thinkin' people only ran AC/40 Jagers for the lulz. :3

I run one cause I love hard hitting Quick killing weapon platforms. Is that wrong?

Nryrony, on 15 February 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Then why does my laser not deal instant dmg as well? Not to mention the amount of heat every laser generates which makes energy builds effectively useless unless you restrict yourself to 2 ppcs.

Cause some folks really really didn't want all front loaded damage weapons. And though I did love em that way, having different ways to do harm to each other's toons is a good thing!

[Varent]

wanderer, on 14 February 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Why isn't the Hunchback-P reviled?

Worse heat and a moving target spreads the damage around, while dual 20's don't.

A light can and will survive 8 ML's fired at it, because most of the damage is either spread or wasted as the light gets out of firing radius.

A light that intersects twin 20's ends up in four pieces and can neither spread nor dodge part of the damage. And that's why the AC is king right now and the PPC queen. Mechwarior game series lasers used to function like AC's do in MWO- you hit with them, full damage, one spot, zap *****!

It ruined the damage system for 'Mechs, thus the current "burn" mechanic instead. If that damage system was bad for lasers, what does having a different graphics representation of the same system change?

The hunchback P is reviled for the same reason the 4SP is adored. All of its eggs are in one basket. The hunchbacks problem has nothing to do with its loadout. The hunchbacks problem has everything to do with its massive hunch that draws fire. The only way the hunchback will ever see true competitive play is if they make the hunch a weapon pod that can be blown off and only lose a 1/2 of the weapons housed and not simply destroy the whole torso section. Most people also make the mistake of assuming they have to use up all of the hardpoints on a mech instead of optmizing there build for a purpose.

to prove a point however.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f7d12b019dd2fe3

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...95a7bbcd25b83ad

Both of those are decent builds. I prefer the second myself, great fire support mech.

[Varent]

Nryrony, on 15 February 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Then why does my laser not deal instant dmg as well? Not to mention the amount of heat every laser generates which makes energy builds effectively useless unless you restrict yourself to 2 ppcs.

weight, size, lack of ammo explosion factor, lack of reliance on ammo.

I think your trying to use up hardpoints to make up for a certain amount of damage instead of thinking situationaly.

The ac20 is a great weapon in close though it can be a heat monster and it also is a risk since people will target the weapon group immediatly to try to take it out of the fight and the ac20 is easy to target on all mechs.

However get away from in close fighting and the ac20 has considerable problems and usually dies to more ranged mechs. It also has all of the negatives listed above.

[Lightfoot]

The mechs are too weak and the answer is not nerfing Inner Sphere tech. Clan Tech owns Ballistic and Missile weapons and that arrives in-game in just a few months.

The OP's concern is AC40 is over-powering, but some Clan mechs will carry 2xUAC20 or 2xLBX20 because this is normal. Even if 2xUAC20 is blocked a Direwolf could easily carry 3xUAC10 with about the same result.

So the fix is in making the mechs tougher and freeing up Mechlab of Ghost heat and the Gauss-nerf. Clan tech makes Inner Sphere tech look like junk, except for PPCs and Gauss Rifles which were too OP for MWO's MechWarriors, but those weapons are the best match-up versus Clan tech.

Anyway, the Clans won the Ballistic and Missile match-up before MWO started and the Energy nerfs of Ghost Heat and DHS 1.4 have no effect on that.

[990Dreams]

AC/40s are not a problem as I've stated many a time. What the problem is is that people never engage them properly.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lightfoot, on 15 February 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Anyway, the Clans won the Ballistic and Missile match-up before MWO started and the Energy nerfs of Ghost Heat and DHS 1.4 have no effect on that.

Yup they won back in 1990!

[Nryrony]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

weight, size, lack of ammo explosion factor, lack of reliance on ammo.

• Ammo was already adjusted to compensate for the higher amount of armor.
  
• Ammo and weapon explosions rarely occur, and only do so if you lost your armor with basically makes the exposed part a free-kill anyway.
  
• Heat wise, every energy weapon is a joke, especially the pulse variants with the exception of the small laser.
  
• You even get 3x (max)range bonus on every ballistic except MGs
  
• All ballistics have superior dps over their energy counter parts - with the exception of the ppc.

I know that the AC40 has its problems with range, is a dedicated build, but still its an overwhelming light slayer - if you know how to handle it. Ofc there is the insane alpha heat but it doesn't hinder an AC40 Jager to onshot its target - if needed - otherwise just salvo fire.

Edited by Nryrony, 15 February 2014 - 10:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

DavidHurricane, on 15 February 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

AC/40s are not a problem as I've stated many a time. What the problem is is that people never engage them properly.

I wouldn't say never.... Otherwise My KDR would be Much higher.

[Varent]

Nryrony, on 15 February 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

• Ammo was already adjusted to compensate for the higher amount of armor.
  
• Ammo and weapon explosions rarely occur, and only do so if you lost your armor with basically makes the exposed part a free-kill anyway.
  
• Heat wise, every energy weapon is a joke, especially the pulse variants with the exception of the small laser.
  
• You even get 3x (max)range bonus on every ballistic except MGs
  
• All ballistics have superior dps over their energy counter parts - with the exception of the ppc.

I know that the AC40 has its problems with range, is a dedicated build, but still its an overwhelming light slayer - if you know how to handle it. Ofc there is the insane alpha heat but it doesn't hinder an AC40 Jager to onshot its target - if needed - otherwise just salvo fire.

1) still doesnt make it not a factor
2) your not using the right weapons then. I love my lbx and machine guns specifically for ammo explosions. Trust me, they occur, and they are glorious.
3) This I agree on in regards to the pulse weapons. Though I feel pulse needs an overhaul and to deal damage much differently.
4) They did this to compensate for bullet drop and the physics of the game. Though yes it should be toned back abit I think. I actually think they should increase the laser range on the large lasers myself.
5) DPS is a horrible statistic to judge a weapon by in a shooter.

the ac40 jager is a horrible, easily killed build that is only used in low elo before people really fully understand the game.

[Nick Makiaveli]

TehSBGX, on 15 February 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

And here I was, thinkin' people only ran AC/40 Jagers for the lulz. :3

To be honest, I finally build one just to see what the fuss was. Now I rarely run it except as a group just to hear the whining and crying. Last time was 3 BoomJagers and a Hunchie with a single AC/20. I lost an arm early on, but other than that we had massive fun going bottom on HPG and murdering anything that came down the ramp....ahh good times.

That said, the mech is awesome if you have cover, ie long range fire support and lights to protect against other lights. In other words, it's no different from any other specialized build. I prefer generalists personally.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

1) still doesnt make it not a factor
2) your not using the right weapons then. I love my lbx and machine guns specifically for ammo explosions. Trust me, they occur, and they are glorious.
3) This I agree on in regards to the pulse weapons. Though I feel pulse needs an overhaul and to deal damage much differently.
4) They did this to compensate for bullet drop and the physics of the game. Though yes it should be toned back abit I think. I actually think they should increase the laser range on the large lasers myself.
5) DPS is a horrible statistic to judge a weapon by in a shooter.

the ac40 jager is a horrible, easily killed build that is only used in low elo before people really fully understand the game.

This is not true at all. I understand the game perfectly well. Goal of the game kill you before you kill me. Not really that hard to grasp. Using a Jager40 requires accepting you will not always have stellar performances, but you can help your team win quite often if you know your role.

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 February 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

This is not true at all. I understand the game perfectly well. Goal of the game kill you before you kill me. Not really that hard to grasp. Using a Jager40 requires accepting you will not always have stellar performances, but you can help your team win quite often if you know your role.

At lower elo sure. At higher elo your a slow moving easily killed target. Nothing more.

[Nryrony]

Varent, on 15 February 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

At lower elo sure. At higher elo your a slow moving easily killed target. Nothing more.

70 kph ain't that slow - and even on high elo you only have 2 enemy's, your own stupidity and high alpha pop builds.

[Varent]

Nryrony, on 15 February 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

70 kph ain't that slow - and even on high elo you only have 2 enemy's, your own stupidity and high alpha pop builds.

alot more then that. anything with range will murder you. any dedicated brawler will also murder you if they can torso twist effectively. all you need is to lose a side torso in that mech and your dead. WIch with how the arms are placed, you cant defend.