47 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

Make no mistake, I can put up screenshots with numbers on them too.

It just requires far less effort to put those same numbers up with absolutely any other mech besides the Awesome.

What is a monumental effort on the Awesome's part is a walk in the park with a Victor. But this doesn't change the fact that the Awesome is the hardest assault mech to pilot.

[Clydewinder]

LOL Dragons and Awesomes are HARD, but they are also FUN.

Awesomes are gigantic hunchbacks. You can't play them as assault tanks. You need to be invisible most of the time.
Think of them as a hunchback with an extra 30 tons of weapons and armor and you will have fun. Just got out of a round on caustic in my 9M with 500 damage and 4 kills.

8V LRM carrier is a good mech too. Never owned a PB so can't comment on that.

IMO Dragons have the best arm-mounted weapon hardpoints in the game, and the best speed of the heavies ( besides QKD, same tonnage ). No problem keeping the reticle on the enemy in a Dragon.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Contrary to common belief, Assaults are actually among the hardest mechs to pilot correctly. People seem to think they are a nice big wall of free kills, and then use them to sit back and camp. Unfortunately, assaults are not capable of producing more damage than a heavy without overheating, as the difference in available tonnage is very narrow, and the heat production is identical. On top of that, Heavies are much faster and smaller, and typically have much more focused weapon slots, both in location and type.

Assaults are meant to be a frontline mech that absorbs and directs damage away from teammates, and doing that without dieing horribly requires both teamwork and a lot of skill. Because of this learning-curve, they are constantly used improperly as fire-support, much to the detriment of their teammates.

I think first place in sheer difficulty would be the Awesome and Atlas, as they are very large, easy to hit targets that players tend to overload and overheat constantly. Weighing 80+ tons doesn't make you any less killable, if anything it makes you an even easier target. Which is exactly the point. Players tend to focus on the biggest threat, and simplify that in the mind to the largest mech.

If you are playing an assault and you are behind your teammates, you are doing it wrong and wasting precious tons. LRM stalkers especially grind my gears, and not because they can be threatening. They anger me because they sit back doing something a TDR or Cat can do just as well, and focus on opportunistic killing, only being effective against new players and unlucky targets.

It's like using a spoon as a screwdriver. The spoon is great for soup, but you're just ******* yourself over if you try to fix your rig with it. Buy a damn screwdriver already.

[Fuggles]

Highlanders can take a beating, and have JJs to boot. They aren't fast but atlas's stalkers and 8 series awsomes aren't rapidly outpacing them.

I have mastered every assault in the game minus the new battlemaster and by far, awsomes are the hardest to excell at. Even the 9m with its speed is tricky now.

Reading this list makes me sad as I realized I have all the worst Mechs in the game ( althoughI haven't taken my dragon out since the victor came out, it's xl350 is on perma loan)

I'd also chime in, mediums are the hardest mech class to play

Edited by Fuggles, 21 October 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Arrogusss]

The Hardest Assault Or Mech In General To Pilot Well?...
As the OP used the words "Pilot Well" it seems alot of posters here assume that means "Do Well" or "Survive" etc...
The Awesome may have trouble surviving with it's hitbox, and overheating problems with an energy based loadout, which in turn leads to a quick death and low damage and low kills. That does NOT mean it is hard to "PILOT".
I agree with another poster in this thread in regards to the Highlander, then the Atlas, and before you have the skill tree unlocked stay away from the Orion because it handles like an old Cadillac with two flat tires.

[McBond]

I think the quickdraw is harder than the dragon. The dragon is geared for long range fire support which is an easier role to play. The quickdraw seems to be more about moving around and getting a good position on the enemy at close range, and especially using your jumpjets to do so.

[Wispsy]

Assaults are not the hardest things to pilot well. Not even close...but I guess my standards are higher then most when it comes to what counts as "piloting well".

Awesome is the worst Assault mech, if that helps, Highlanders have the highest skill cap.

Piloting a heavy/medium/light well is harder to do.

[ReguIus]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 21 October 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Contrary to common belief, Assaults are actually among the hardest mechs to pilot correctly. People seem to think they are a nice big wall of free kills, and then use them to sit back and camp. Unfortunately, assaults are not capable of producing more damage than a heavy without overheating, as the difference in available tonnage is very narrow, and the heat production is identical. On top of that, Heavies are much faster and smaller, and typically have much more focused weapon slots, both in location and type.

Assaults are meant to be a frontline mech that absorbs and directs damage away from teammates, and doing that without dieing horribly requires both teamwork and a lot of skill. Because of this learning-curve, they are constantly used improperly as fire-support, much to the detriment of their teammates

My view is somewhat the opposite. I've seen enough Atlai and other Assaults charging headlong into enemy formations doing 150 points of damage before they are ripped apart and destroyed. The fact is, Assault 'Mechs' are too large and too slow to properly absorb damage. They are prime targets for builds such as AC40 Jaegers. Yes you can try to torso twist, but then you'll cut your own damage output to a fraction and get killed anyway - or at least come out so horribly damaged that you're only good for base capping. Being supported by the team helps, but against organized defense it allows little consolation.

Compared to Heavy class, Assaults do have a chance to bring more heavy ballistics to the field and usually get enough heat sinks to top them off because they’re not so dependant on Endo Steel like Heavies are, therefore allowing more space.

I’ll grant the fact that their damage output isn’t exponentially better, but that’s also the reason why Assaults, in my opinion, are a bad choice to spearhead an attack. They get destroyed too fast that they can’t fully utilize their potential firepower. Even an “alpha” of 30 or 40 isn’t intolerable for Assaults if you get to apply that damage over a long time – which isn’t something you won’t easily achieve by being the first one to die.

I’m not saying Assaults couldn’t handle close combat though. I just think they should be on the second or third line of attack. Faster Mediums and Heavies can pop in and out of combat so that the enemy can’t focus on a single target constantly. I think that in an optimal braw the enemy won’t even fully realize they’re being pounded by Assault ‘Mechs firing from 200-400 meters away.

[aniviron]

D04S02B04, on 20 October 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Most of these guys are wrong with regards to the Assault class.

The hardest Assault mech to pilot is actually the Highlander.

The Awesome and Victor are both very vicious Assault Mechs because with their tonnage and size they are able to bring huge amount of firepower to the table. With their lighter 80 tons this means you move faster with the same engine and turn faster.

Survivability is determined by firstly mobility, then armour. An Awesome can easily engage and disengage, run from cover to cover, torso twist, present side profile (pretty slim), spreading damage evenly throughout his entire torso. A lot of Awesome mount majority of their weapons on their torso which means you lose very little fire power from losing your arms. The Victor has the benefits of a smaller profile and ballistic weaponry but requires good pinpoint accuracy and focused firing (AC20s, AC5 builds) which reduces your ability to torso twist to spread damage. The greater amount of hardpoints on the Awesome makes you a stronger burst damage Mech overall compared to Victor.

It may seem like an Awesome is subpar compared to an Atlas but I have downed many Atlas from the burst firepower/dps of the Awesome against an Atlas.

The Highlander is highly difficult because unlike the Atlas, it does not have the same amount of armour but it can carry a similar amount of weaponry but still suffers the Atlas' mobility issues. This puts you right in the middle of, slower mobility than awesome/victor and lesser armour than an Atlas. Some might call it best of both worlds but I see it as the worse of both worlds.

However the Highlander is exceedingly good in its role of moving faster than the Atlas and having the potential to have massive DPS in close quarters, making it suited for breaking through during the midgame, rapidly downing any mechs that offers resistance. The jumpjets while many players have exalted as good for assisting in turning against light mechs... I find is only good for obtaining better positions in maps like Canyon. No real immediate advantage unless you're a medium or light mech who can pack far more JJs and evade better.

EDIT: Moreover, the Highlander has very easily target-able shoulders. I've noticed my shoulders being blown away on many occasions (somehow they don't seem to shoot my centre torso as much) and this disables up to 75% of your firepower, depending on the side that is blown off and weapons loaded. Putting on an XL engine is a highly risky trade-off whereas it is advantageous for some variants of other Assault Mechs.

The Atlas is easy to play if you take the DDC model and simply support from long range or pick a front heavy Atlas and provide a shield/base of fire for the advance.

First off, let me say I'm very happy for you that you've had at least three okay games in an Awesome. It's hard to do! I should know, I drive them a lot. (look for me in the Awesome category. I link more to let you know I know what I'm talking about, and only a little bit for bragging. :3)

While I will admit that the 9M (and PB, but I don't own it, not going to pay $30 for one mech) are indeed fast, they're hardly unique in this area. Specifically, every Victor variant is just as fast as the fastest Awesome, but four of the five cbill Awesome variants are actually hobbled by the smallest engine rating cap in the entire assault class. I'd argue that strictly speaking, the Awesome is worse in almost every possible way when compared to the Victor; the only downside to the Victor you list is that it needs "good pinpoint accuracy" thanks to its ability to mount ballistic weapons. I'm not sure how being able to put damage where you aim it is a bad thing, though.

In regards to your comment that the Awesome is "Pretty slim," well, I don't mean to pick on you, but it's blatantly untrue. Here, I went to the trouble of making you a comparison image:



You'll note that the AWS is actually thicker than the AS7. From back to front of torso with arms excluded, the AWS measures 67px to the AS7's 65; but the AWS maintains its thickness for the majority of the mech's height, and unlike the AS7, there are portions of both the front and back rear CT hitboxes visible from a 90 degree side on view.

After rereading your post I'm also thinking you miss the point of having jumpjets on a Highlander. The great thing about having JJs when you're 90 tons is that you don't have problems with circling lights, as the JJs give you a massive boost to your turning radius while simultaneously making your opponent track vertically as well as horizontally to keep his aim on target. While you are correct in stating that the Highlander is not as fast as a Victor (though it is faster than all the Awesomes but the 9M), you're also incorrect about having the same mobility as an Atlas; its turning speed is slightly higher, and it gets better arm mobility, on par with the Victor in fact.

I also can't help but note that you also don't stack up the Awesome against the Stalker, but I'll give a quick rundown here for those interested: the Stalker has the same lack of ballistic hardpoints as the Awesome, but one and a half times the hardpoints in a much smaller package, and gets to mount a bigger engine in the second smallest (proportionally) center torso in the game. Oh, and the hardpoints are as high as possible on the mech, unlike the gorilla-armed Awesome.

Look, I really do enjoy piloting my Awesomes, I love them too much to sell, but I'm not going to pretend that they're anything but the worst assault mech in the game. Yes, it is possible to do well in them, but you'll have a much easier time doing well in any other assault.

Oh, and the Locust is the worst mech in the game. Cheers!

[Calan Steiner]

I have to agree with several other posters here... The Awesome is by far the worst assault mech. If I receive the undivided attention of someone with an AC, PPC, or more than one large laser I'm not going to last much longer unless I retreat. I kind of feel like a large, slow, medium mech, not at all like an assault mech.

Running stock in an Awesome is just asking for trouble too. Not only do you get cored quickly in the CT but you also overheat super fast from ghost heat from your third PPC. Yes, with good firing discipline it can not be an issue, but if you are blasting away at a kintaro and both of your CTs are about to go are you really going to worry about firing off that third PPC round?

I do okay in the Awesome but it is highly dependent on my teammates providing support and someone to hide behind (or try to, still feels like trying to hide a barn behind an outhouse). My Catapult on the other hand absolutely annihilates people, with very little effort or stress. The Stalker is the same way.

The only way to fix the issues with the awesome is to eliminate ghost heat for the third PPC and to make the whole mech a lot skinnier and the CT narrower.

[Blue Hymn]

....I want to give my Awesome's a hug now. ;__;

[D04S02B04]

Aniviron, I accept most of the points you make in your post.

However my point is to iterate that the Awesome is not the most difficult mech to use and it is easier to play if compared to the Highlander (and now that you've mentioned it, the Stalker).

My response to you is as attached in the spoiler.

EDIT: I would add one last point... one of the main reason why I think the Awesome is easier to play is because of its high amount of Energy hardpoints allowing you to spam MLs while having enough space for Heatsinks.

Spoiler

aniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

While I will admit that the 9M (and PB, but I don't own it, not going to pay $30 for one mech) are indeed fast, they're hardly unique in this area. Specifically, every Victor variant is just as fast as the fastest Awesome, but four of the five cbill Awesome variants are actually hobbled by the smallest engine rating cap in the entire assault class. I'd argue that strictly speaking, the Awesome is worse in almost every possible way when compared to the Victor; the only downside to the Victor you list is that it needs "good pinpoint accuracy" thanks to its ability to mount ballistic weapons. I'm not sure how being able to put damage where you aim it is a bad thing, though.

Personally I don't think the Pretty Baby is a good loadout at 3 Energy and 3 Missiles. The Battlemaster is a better alternative at 85 Tons, non-MC alternative at 4 Energy 4 Missiles load out with high set energy weapons.

Both an advantage and disadvantage of the victor are the fact that their high firepower weapons are mounted in their arms. Torso twisting tends to get them damaged and smart players will know to aim for your arms (much like Highlander's shoulder). If you're a good player, you can aim well with the AC, that's not a problem but for players who aren't as good, the arm mounted weapons do not provide a significant benefit.

One of the criterias I mentioned was going on with half your torso blown off. Blow off any side of most of the Awesome variants you'll still have a ML (head) and depending on your loadout, more SRMs and MLs.

It's easier to land some damage with a laser than try to hit things with an AC but I do not rate the awesome as better than the victor. I'm only saying it isn't as hard to play an Awesome as opposed to say, the Highlander.

aniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

In regards to your comment that the Awesome is "Pretty slim," well, I don't mean to pick on you, but it's blatantly untrue. Here, I went to the trouble of making you a comparison image:

You'll note that the AWS is actually thicker than the AS7. From back to front of torso with arms excluded, the AWS measures 67px to the AS7's 65; but the AWS maintains its thickness for the majority of the mech's height, and unlike the AS7, there are portions of both the front and back rear CT hitboxes visible from a 90 degree side on view.

I accept that fact. Perhaps I should have place more context in the regard that the side profile is slim compared to it's front profile. With regards to your comparison to the stalker, the awesome has a slimmer profile =p

aniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

After rereading your post I'm also thinking you miss the point of having jumpjets on a Highlander. The great thing about having JJs when you're 90 tons is that you don't have problems with circling lights, as the JJs give you a massive boost to your turning radius while simultaneously making your opponent track vertically as well as horizontally to keep his aim on target. While you are correct in stating that the Highlander is not as fast as a Victor (though it is faster than all the Awesomes but the 9M), you're also incorrect about having the same mobility as an Atlas; its turning speed is slightly higher, and it gets better arm mobility, on par with the Victor in fact.

My statement of mobility issue should have been more contextualised. Yes, it goes without saying that a 90ton mech would move faster than a 100 ton mech. However if you compare it to the Awesome or Victor, both of which have faster twist rates and movespeed for the same engine, it makes the highlander more difficult to pilot.

I went back to try using JJs on the Highlander. I notice a significant improvement after putting 4 jumpjets (8 tons) and used an XL engine and tweaked a few of my weapons and I see the immense benefits that JJ offers. However, I cannot help but feel that the reason you need a JJ in the first place was because of the low mobility of the chassis with its poor turn and torso turn rate if compared to the Victor or Awesome.

aniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

I also can't help but note that you also don't stack up the Awesome against the Stalker, but I'll give a quick rundown here for those interested: the Stalker has the same lack of ballistic hardpoints as the Awesome, but one and a half times the hardpoints in a much smaller package, and gets to mount a bigger engine in the second smallest (proportionally) center torso in the game. Oh, and the hardpoints are as high as possible on the mech, unlike the gorilla-armed Awesome.

I've never used a stalker before apart from the trial mech when I started playing MWO initially. The low torso twist angle, slow twist speed and low movement speed is quite a drag on the chassis. It would actually make the Stalker harder to pilot than the Awesome. To be honest, Stalkers are my favourite Assault Mech enemies because once you get an angle on them, they're pretty much dead from poor mobility.

aniviron, on 22 October 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

Look, I really do enjoy piloting my Awesomes, I love them too much to sell, but I'm not going to pretend that they're anything but the worst assault mech in the game. Yes, it is possible to do well in them, but you'll have a much easier time doing well in any other assault.

Oh, and the Locust is the worst mech in the game. Cheers!

I'm not sure, I find myself doing better in an Awesome than I do in the Highlander. (I don't have a Stalker so I won't comment).

Calan1188, on 22 October 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

... everything you said ...

Applies to every assault class to be honest... perhaps with the exception of the Atlas and Highlander who can take more punishment.

Edited by D04S02B04, 22 October 2013 - 01:33 AM.

[aniviron]

D04S02B04, on 22 October 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

<a bunch of good stuff>

While I'd beg to differ a bit on the mlas spamming (the highest possible count is seven on the AWS-8Q) since it means you're essentially wasting tonnage, I'd agree on the rest. If you want mlas, play a HBK-4P which gets more hardpoints and runs a lot faster, or load up a stalker with SRMs and mlas, since it gets more of both kinds of hardpoints. It can also load up more heatsinks because it doesn't have that damned worthless hand actuator blocking one arm, and gets a bigger engine that can fit more inside.

I've got a lot more experience in Stalkers than Highlanders, and for the most part I'd say you're right that most of the STK variants are pretty awful close up thanks to the bad twist and lack of horizontal arm movement; that said, almost everyone elites their stalkers and then sells them all except the 3F unless they want to play LRMs, as the 3F doesn't have the torso twist weakness all the others do, and it has just as many or more hardpoints than the others.

Finally, I think a lot of what makes the Awesome so middling right now is how worthless SRMs are. I'd trade all four missile hardpoints on my 8R for a single ballistic hardpoint to use with an AC20. Once they fix SRM hitreg in six months or six years from now, things will be different, but until then, I stand by that.

[Drehl]

Wispsy, on 21 October 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Highlanders have the highest skill cap.

just out of curiosity.. what makes you think the HGN has the highest skill cap?
(imo the current fotm ppc+ac/uac jumpsnipers isn't that as hard to pilot the best way as an atlas.)


to topic: the aws is just {Scrap}.. but it doesn't need anything special piloskill related than the other mechs.

imo the hardest assualt to master, is the atlas. you'll need a lot of practice and situational awareness if you want to lead a push in an atlas, play the damagesponge and survive long enough to make your team benefit from your armor.
you need good timing, very good torsotwist, and excepional situational awareness.. otherwise you'll die left alone very often. once you are in a bad spot you're pretty much screwd.

(in addittion there are tons of bad atlaspilots out there wo are afraid of getting some scratches in their precious paint... and just.. do not charge..)

[stjobe]

Butane9000, on 20 October 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

Hardest in general is tough. Awesome is definitely a contender but so are the Dragon, Trebuchet and Commando. Those 3 are the top in their weight class for uselessness though the Locust might usurp the Commando.

The Commando shouldn't be in that list.

It isn't useless, it isn't hard to do well in, it's just been the lightest 'mech for so long people that (still!) think "tonnage = worth" disregard it out of hand.

Any Commando is better than the SDR-5V and 5K. Any Commando is better than the RVN-4X. Any Commando is better than the LCT-1V, and possibly the other Locusts as well (I don't have enough drops yet to say for sure, but I'm leaning towards that from my experience so far).

Of the lights, The two non-5D Spiders are the worst, putting the SDR as the worst light 'mech (2 out of 3 variants bad). The LCT has two good variants and one bad (the 1V), the Commando has no really bad variants, the RVN has just one bad variant, the JR7 has five good variants:

So, summing up:
1: SDR. 2 bad variants, one good. Worst light chassis.
2: LCT. 1 bad variant, two good.
3. RVN. 1 bad variant, two good. Better than the Locust due to being 15 tons heavier.
4. COM. 5 good variants.
5. JR7. 5 good variants. Best light chassis.

As for assaults - don't ask me, I have about 30 drops in assaults in total and can't drive them to save my life

[Red Jenny]

To throw a more general statement regarding the topic. There a several things to consider whether or how hard a mech is to pilot. On thing most people would agree on is it general design (Size of the CT, engine cap etc) and heat efficiency. However, one should also take in consideration the position of the hard points, the kind of the hardpoints and whether it can field jump jets or not.

Think of all this things for me, as a big heavy fan its the Dragon. It can make for a fast brawler, but it is a giant walking center torso to a point where it is almost impossible of not hitting CT form the side. The HPs that it matters for (energy and balistic) are all very low in the body or the arms. Also it can under most circumstances not field an AC20 (with flame being the obvious exception)

But, and that whats brings us to the original question, it is indeed rather fast and the most of the hardpoint variants are generous for very heavy and effective builds with a sometimes low number of actual weapons. The hardpoint composition itself could also be used for a heavy fire support mech, but the position of the hard points make it almost impossible to get in a effective hull down position.

So what I'm trying to say: It has as an high entry level, but its ability do excel is at least equal to the other mechs of its class.

Of course that is only my opinion and anyone may differ.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I vote awesome for sure, the Victor has really shown how much it lacks its slow, too easy to hit and lacks the agility to compensate for either.

[Rushin Roulette]

Well, the question is which is the hardest mech (or Assault)to pilot well, not which is the worst mech which some people are writing;

It is all down to personal prefferences and play styles. I personally actually like playing the Awsomes as brawlers. They can pack a really heavy punch with a standard engine, and if you torsotwist well enough, then you can spread the damage enough to keep most of your weapons (use that big shield arm). Even if you get one torso side blown off, you still have enough weapons to be dangerous.. and if you loose the second side... you cna still go nuts with the head laser.

What I personally foudn really iritating and un-fun to play was the Highlander (and this was during the apex of the Jumpsniper era), I personally dont like sniping, so I was always trying to get up close and personal with them and found the asymetrical wepaon loadout to be a gigantic pain in the lower rear centre torso. One bad hit and 80% of your damage is gone.


What people should be saying is that light mechs are the hardest mechs to play "well". Dealing damage and staying alive is easy for the bigger mechs... but try doing that with a wet paper towel with around 150 kph while at the same time trying to inform your whole team where the enemy is, avoiding not only the enemy fire towards you, but your own teammates fire aiming at the enemy behind you.

[Charons Little Helper]

I would say that Atlases, while the easiest to pilot okay (due to all their armor), they are also one of the hardest to pilot very well.

In general they're slow, huge, and lack jump-jets. So - the key is to figure out when and where to commit your bulk, because you aren't going to be able to fall back. If done well you can be a game-changer. If badly, you've just wasted 100 tons for your team.

[aniviron]

stjobe, on 22 October 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

The Commando shouldn't be in that list.

It isn't useless, it isn't hard to do well in, it's just been the lightest 'mech for so long people that (still!) think "tonnage = worth" disregard it out of hand.

Any Commando is better than the SDR-5V and 5K. Any Commando is better than the RVN-4X. Any Commando is better than the LCT-1V, and possibly the other Locusts as well (I don't have enough drops yet to say for sure, but I'm leaning towards that from my experience so far).

Of the lights, The two non-5D Spiders are the worst, putting the SDR as the worst light 'mech (2 out of 3 variants bad). The LCT has two good variants and one bad (the 1V), the Commando has no really bad variants, the RVN has just one bad variant, the JR7 has five good variants:

So, summing up:
1: SDR. 2 bad variants, one good. Worst light chassis.
2: LCT. 1 bad variant, two good.
3. RVN. 1 bad variant, two good. Better than the Locust due to being 15 tons heavier.
4. COM. 5 good variants.
5. JR7. 5 good variants. Best light chassis.

As for assaults - don't ask me, I have about 30 drops in assaults in total and can't drive them to save my life

I'm actually inclined to agree, at least to an extent. The COM-2D is an excellent mech, I'd put it up there with the Jenners and 3L as among the best. I actually rather like the other variants too, though I will confess that I wouldn't drive any of them right now since they rely so heavily on SRMs not being bad.

At least with broken hitreg and given how machineguns work, I don't think the SDR-5K is that bad. I can get 3-400 damage/drop in it, easy. If they ever get around to fixing spiders, it'll be awful though.

I'd actually also argue that the RVN-2X is a lot worse than you'd think; what with being a hardcore light pilot, you might actually get through my essay on it here: http://mwomercs.com/...-rvn-24x-buffs/ ;] Given how easy it is to leg, how slow it still is, and the fact that the SRMs don't do much these days, I'd actually say the Death's Knell is just straight up better than the RVN-2X, let alone any of the Jenners.