440 replies to this topic

[focuspark]

Mycrus, on 20 October 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Spiders are broken, and I'm saying that on the basis of having mastered all light chassis and all variants (sans locusts which I'm still working on).

I'm not technical enough to say with certainty what exactly is causing the issue but we should not see spiders tanking damage way more than any of the lights should be able to do.

I'm mastering Spiders now and wow... why the hell did I waste time with Commanos and Jenners?! The Spider is the be all end all of Light mechs. I'm completely spoilt now.

Fast as hell, jumps, has defensive arms... it's godly... and OH SO MUCH FUN

[Clit Beastwood]

For a long time, the spiders were regarded as absolute failures as mechs in this game. I used to catch flak from my own team because I was "dead weight". That my team was essentially down a mech because I dropped in a spider. But you learn tricks. You learn how to move. You learn that armlocking before firing gives you pinpoint convergence. You learn how to survive (5v!!!!!). You learn that a 4ppc stalker can't hit you if you run straight at it (you can close distance faster than his weapons can converge). These are things I learned. These are things I know. Because I run them. When I run heavier, spiders arent an issue. If you have an AC20 in your right arm and a spider is headed towards you, don't aim for the center of his chest, aim at his right arm - convergence being what it is, you'll likely CT the spider you're shooting at. This isn't complex, it's not hard, you just need to know how to run them to learn how to kill them. Granted, people with terrible pings in spiders are a bane, but they're not invincible. Buy the 3 spiders. Master them all. Then jump into a dual LBX jager and kill spiders.

[JSparrowist]

I'd have to say that there is something wrong with the spider. I have Ravens, Commandos, and Spiders.. I am not a great light pilot and when I'm in a Com or Rvn I usually go down pretty easily if I am not careful but when I pilot a Spider, I can WRECK the enemy team and usually survive the match with minimal damage. Something isn't right with them. I don't think I am taking as much damage as I should be, at least in comparison to the other lights I have used.

[Mechteric]

its legs also don't register laser hits properly. Using 4 small pulse I can leg any other light pretty quickly 1v1, but against the spider it seems to take much longer, as if each time only 1/4th of the damage gets applied. Considering how easy it usually is to keep small pulse on target this is probably the best reproduce for this.

[wintersborn]

[fedacted]
The Spider does not register hits like all the other mechs.

Edited by miSs, 22 October 2013 - 05:46 AM.
language

[Mehlan]

CapperDeluxe, on 21 October 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

its legs also don't register laser hits properly. Using 4 small pulse I can leg any other light pretty quickly 1v1, but against the spider it seems to take much longer, as if each time only 1/4th of the damage gets applied. Considering how easy it usually is to keep small pulse on target this is probably the best reproduce for this.

....but going to testing grounds, and trying this a half dozen times to confirm is too hard, right?

[Sable Dove]

mwhighlander, on 21 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=1CkiNvfy1vs


Yep, totally a well designed mech with no glaring flaws at all.

First: literally the first sentence in my post explains that this test is not reproducable. It's been retested since the last patch (which was after that particular video was posted), and was not happening.

Second: who the hell uses SRMs to test a mech'*****-detection? A weapon system that is notorious for having truely terrible hit detection.

16 seconds of testing, using one weapon against one mech a couple of times is hardly conclusive in the first place. And regardless, that problem was apparently fixed (and doesn't account for the legs being harder to destroy than one expects.

Maybe someone should do some actual testing. You know, use a variety of weapons on a variety of locations. And then test other mechs as well. Because a video that's older than the last patch shows us the following: The SDR-5D sometimes did not take damage from SRM-2 missiles fired one at a time from one very specific angle.

I haven't seen any real testing done other than one very inconclusive video, and nothing since the latest patch. Anyone I've seen claim to test it since has said it doesn't happen anymore. So post something a little more concrete than one sixteen-second test with one weapon that's renowned for having bad hit detection on its own; otherwise, all you've got are anecdotes, which are unreliable at best, and outright false at worst.

Edited by Sable Dove, 21 October 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[Mehlan]

Actually Sable the original person did it again... and I replicated it once... and then upon going back into the test ground and trying it again could not replicate it... howver i had a jenner that would not allow me to hit the right arm.

Mehlan, on 21 October 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Actually Sable the original person did it again... and I replicated it once... and then upon going back into the test ground and trying it again could not replicate it... howver i had a jenner that would not allow me to hit the right arm.

I have yet to be able to replicate it at all with any laser, an AC 20 or machine gun.

[Livebait]

[Redacted] The "problem" is manifested in the fact the Spider does not take damage correctly like all other mechs. True some mechs are kinda broke (centurion) but most do not require four or five mechs to take them down. Thats routine for a Spider.

Training server video means jack...live servers with various pings is the real test. The Spider should be as durable as a commando. They are shaped and sized about the same.

Every fair minded person knows the Spider has a problem. Lazy knuckleheads defend the Spider as they did the Raven, PPC's, Gauss, LRM's...you get the point?

No...I know, thats why I'm going back to reading Battletech.

Edited by Niko Snow, 22 October 2013 - 09:49 AM.
Insult Removed

[xRatas]

Roughneck45, on 21 October 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

I agree.

People miss their shots against them more than anything else, then whine about hit reg. Sure, the hit reg needs a lot of work, but the spider is just a difficult target to land shots on. It's really the only advantage it has.

Well, their own game client recognizes the hit but server doesn't. No wonder player thinks he hit it... I thought that's exactly the description of bugged hit detection?

I think thety just missidentified a deer fly as spider, at least the looks, movement and damage model would fit much better to deer fly...

[Zolaz]

Spider=Broken ... all the spider pilots will find that out with the mech is fixed and they go pilot something else buggy.

[Corwin Vickers]

Except my client doesn't have that problem because it's not a bug, it's people's third world internet connections.

[KharnZor]

Well designed you say?

[Mycrus]

Corwin Vickers, on 21 October 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Except my client doesn't have that problem because it's not a bug, it's people's third world internet connections.

I have 300mbps fibre connection... It is the physical distance and wonky routing tables you pompous dezgra..

[xRatas]

Corwin Vickers, on 21 October 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Except my client doesn't have that problem because it's not a bug, it's people's third world internet connections.

Yep it seems north america has bad connections, as they cannot respond in 20ms I should normally expect here in Finland... Even Germany is much better, at least they can respond in 60ms. I'm sure it's just bad connections at the third world, nothing to do with geological distances.

[Green Mamba]

I guess player's Internet Connection only drops when firing at Spiders, then instantly go back to normal when firing at all the other mech chassis,Since players can kill all the others mechs reasonably well as long as they score visual hits. I have a better idea why people are saying this is that they don't want to lose their Broken Spider "Crutches" and have to play on their own merit and skill

[OneEyed Jack]

When HSR went in, suddenly stuff started hitting Lights. A lot. Spiders were still small and agile, so comparatively difficult targets, but they were being hit.

Then something changed. Spiders started surviving. A lot.

And suddenly Spiders became hugely popular.

And out come the cries of the Spider players "Working as intended! Nothing broke here, move along."

It's obvious that all that's wrong is that people who were previously able to hit them just fine lost all ability to aim. And when a big hit that actually registers damage, registers it as only a couple points of damage.... well, that's just leet skillz.

[Tesunie]

Otto Cannon, on 21 October 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

https://plus.google....sts/bW5qtbXVKDU

I've been trying to say something like this for a long while, just not with as many words. (Didn't read the whole thing I shall admit, but I agree with the last section of it, which is probably the true problem.)

Livebait, on 21 October 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

[Redacted] The "problem" is manifested in the fact the Spider does not take damage correctly like all other mechs. True some mechs are kinda broke (centurion) but most do not require four or five mechs to take them down. Thats routine for a Spider.

Training server video means jack...live servers with various pings is the real test. The Spider should be as durable as a commando. They are shaped and sized about the same.

Every fair minded person knows the Spider has a problem. Lazy knuckleheads defend the Spider as they did the Raven, PPC's, Gauss, LRM's...you get the point?

No...I know, thats why I'm going back to reading Battletech.

When I did drive my Spider, I saw shots as I was running away skim my mech sides, and run between the arms and torso of my mech all the time, and then later hear how much those same people shot and hit me, when on my screen they clearly did not. (About 30 ping here average.) The issue is that the Spider is much thinner of waist (torso) than a commando, with thinner arms as well. Everything about the spider is thin. Thin means smaller, harder to hit. It isn't an elongated CT like the Jenner (you can't miss that CT from the side, can you?). It isn't a box like the Commando (look at that torso and arms, lots of big boxes for missiles). It doesn't have the nose of the Raven or larger legs either.

It is so thin, in fact, that your weapons often times are not hitting it, but running just around a side of it. Add that to HSR producing some strange hit registration (anyone else other than me take damage to their rear when they had their backs up against a building or wall? Or have a leg blown off after you ducked behind cover from enemy fire for a few moments?) and you get... this.

Right now, I'd say fix the generalize hit registration and hit detection issues across the board. Once that is fixed, see if that fixed the spider issues. If not, then look into spider more carefully. I don't want to see another PPC "fix" that happened because no one used it from poor hit reg and lag shields. Remember that? They increase it's refire rate, dropped it's heat (so you could fire faster and longer), and they increased projectile speed (so it was more accurate). All before HSR was in the game. Then, once HSR came into the game, they became the #1 weapon to use. All other weapons went right out of style, for months.

Fix one problem, then see what else could be wrong. If you have a misfire in the engine of your car, do you replace the whole car motor? Or do you replace the spark plugs and wires first? I'd rather see the generalized items get fixed first, then visit the spider once all other hit reg problems are solved. So, when you stop being able to shoot me through walls or can no longer hit my rear torso from my front torso, then we can look into Spider in specifics.

(I mean no rudeness in this post, but I'm just merely trying to make a point. I don't know if it's well worded, as I should have been in bed an hour and a half ago... so... TO BED WITH ME!)

Edited by Niko Snow, 22 October 2013 - 09:49 AM.
Quote Cleanup

[stjobe]

Otto Cannon, on 21 October 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

https://plus.google....sts/bW5qtbXVKDU

Perhaps it's worth quoting a bit of that post here:

Quote

But what happens if that target is a Spider? Weapon convergence is an issue because our lead distance is now larger than half the target's width. Our crosshair will not be on the target... which means that the convergence distance will vary depending on the terrain behind the target! In other words, you must vary your lead distance depending on what's behind him. To make matters worse, our AC/20 is roughly 3 meters to the right of the cockpit (more than the width of the Spider FYI), so lead distance varies even more depending on whether he's running clockwise or counter-clockwise.

Well if you crunch the numbers then it turns out you must lead the target somewhere between 5.2 meters and -1.2 meters. That's right - if the Spider is running clockwise (left-to-right) and the terrain behind him is distant then you actually have to aim behind him. But that's very close to his actual width, and if you mess up and put your crosshair on the trailing end of the target? Suddenly the "correct" convergence distance causes you to miss entirely.

That last bit is more troublesome than you might think. It turns out that in some circumstances it's actually impossible to hit him.

Consider a Spider running at 130 kph at a distance of 50 meters. But in this example there's a hill behind him at 100 meters. Taking weapon convergence into account (we're still in a Yen-Lo), we can calculate two different lead distances depending on whether our crosshair will ultimately be on the target or off the target (i.e. correct or incorrect convergence distance).

With correct convergence distance we must lead by 2.01 meters.
With incorrect convergence distance (i.e. crosshair on the hill behind him) we must lead by 0.41 meters.

Notice the problem yet? Half of the Spider's width is about 1.08 meters... it's impossible to get the correct convergence distance to score a hit! If the crosshair is directly on the target then we'll always miss to the left of the target. But if we lead to the right then our convergence distance changes and we always miss to the right!

I've said for a while now that most of the un-killable Spider hysteria is due to it being such a small and annoying target; it's also built like a Centurion and any non-pinpoint damage gets spread all over.

Yes, there are hit registration issues with the Spider but that's not a Spider issue, it's a hit registration issue and it affects all 'mechs. The Spider gets a lot of flak because it's small, fast, jumping, and really, really hard to hit - and when you do hit damage gets spread all over if the (general, not Spider-specific) hit registration bug even registers a hit at all. It's frustrating, I understand that. But no more than my Commando's alpha not registering on an Atlas' back.

And for all you "but, there's VIDEO EVIDENCE dammit!" types; there's plenty of video evidence of hit registration issues with other chassis as well; Cataphracts, Jenners, Atlases, you name it. It's not a Spider problem, it's a MWO problem.

Edited by stjobe, 21 October 2013 - 11:20 PM.

[mekabuser]

I have low ping, 35 n under. Im also an original spider pilot, day one.
MOST of the time i see no noticeable problems with spiders.. I hunt them. Occasionally, they dont take damage, they just dont. I was chasing a bad pilot in a spider last night and put 15 ,20 med laz into its back and nothing was detected.
it happens. Ive seen it happen to me, but most of time its at the end of a match where im outnumbered by many mechs and Ill just kinda stand there and let people kill me. Sometimes, it takes a bit too long.

I dont feel too bad about taking a spider since when i play it i try not to get hit.. AT ALL, but id feel much better at this point taking it if it had paper armor .

its almost moot since the era of spider swarms are over. Its shadowhawks now.
pro tip.. go for the legs of spider