95 replies to this topic

[JigglyMoobs]

HlynkaCG, on 23 October 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

1: The staggering number of assists and positive KDR racked up by my Jm-6S invalidates your "you're being a poor team-mate" thesis.

2: You seem to be misunderstanding what a Sniper actually does. Their purpose is two fold, the first is intelligence, observe enemy movements and report them to the team. Much easier to do as a sniper in a pug game because it's kind of hard to type and drive in light. The second is area denial. The threat of multiple pinpoint hits robs your opponent of the ability to move openly, and in doing so robs them of the initiative.


Killing an opponent in one shot is not nearly as important and forcing them to keep their heads down long enough for your own team to establish fire superiority. That said If you are going to snipe don't worry about kill shots so much as cutting the ears of catapults and the arms and legs off of everyone else. A weaponless mech is not a threat, likewise for an immobilized one, don't get greedy get the win.

Great points. Did both on Alpine (reference map: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...peaks&m=assault) last week in my own Jm-6S (2x Gauss). It was assault and my team started at the smaller base.

I first observed and reported back on enemy positions using adv zoom, then forced a harassing PPC Cat who positioned himself on the mountains near I8 to move away from team's flank with multiple hits to center and side torso from about 900m to 1200m away (CT while he was standing still, side while he was moving).

The main engagement started near Episilon, where engagements traditionally take place, but the team decided to do something unconventional by flanking up the G line road to F9. Practically the entire team did this because they were chasing the PPC squirrel cat I flushed out from the mountains.

At this point, the enemy team were in the valley at E7, E8, E9. Had they scrambled over the mountain face at F7 and F8 our team would be in trouble.

I positioned myself on the mountain at H8 and H9 and took shots from about 1200 m away (ie, out of LRM range). At this range my Gauss shots were 1/2 damage, but I had a pair, so still 15 points. I managed to keep the enemy team from scrambling over the hill long enough that the team got into good attack positions at F9 and over the mountain face. Now the enemy team were fishes in a barrel and dying left and right. At this point, I ran my mech over to F7/E7 to cut off the escape route. Caught one escapee as around E7 and shot a second guy in the back who was still trying to fight off the team advancing on him from F9.

All in all a very fun match and tactics worked out great considering this was a PUG, there were no premades that I was aware off, we were only communicating by chat, and the tactics resulted from self-organized reactions to the situation. The other team, of course, could have done things differently and defeated our tactics. For example, they could have ignored my Gauss shots and advanced on my team anyways, forcing me to move in closer, but they didn't and it worked.

I ended up with over 400 damage, quite a few assists, and a kill.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 07 November 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[SmithMPBT]

Raso, on 22 October 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I prefer the term "direct fire support. Sadly, the term implies I'm supporting someone else, such as brawlers for example. Sadly with brawling's bid decline since open beta it feels much less like direct fire support and much more like "pop out and shoot then duck back behind your rock/ridge"

Those were the days!

World of Tanks is basically that, pull out fire once, retreat to cover. Rinse and repeat the ******** chess match. I hope MWO never turns into that, though the highlanders and such sniping meta seems to be increasing.

[Hexenhammer]

SmithMPBT, on 07 November 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

World of Tanks is basically that, pull out fire once, retreat to cover. Rinse and repeat the ******** chess match. I hope MWO never turns into that, though the highlanders and such sniping meta seems to be increasing.

For a while I wasn't seeing to many poptarts then today I was in a game and it was like wack a mole.

[Greyboots]

'Snipers' serve a purpose in MWO. I hate them in anything but Lights, in which I delight in being the only visible target and having them waste ammo trying to hit me. What I have a thing against is the one standing on top of a hill 1500m away doing minimal damage through misses and firing beyond optimal range thinking they’re being a 'sniper'. BUT... Let’s face it, these are new players who don’t really understand what they’re doing yet so while I don’t like it can certainly understand it. I can’t believe people have gotten their knickers in a twist over what is essentially a rant post for someone to get something out of their system.

The truth here is that PUGS are often full of newer players that still need to learn what they are doing; how the game is put together and how to go about utilizing that to get effectiveness into their intended playstyle. This is a simple fact of life in PUGS in any game, not just here, and if it drives you up the wall it might be time to join a guild (or whatever they are called for MWO). There’s just no sense beating your head against a wall over it and you might have to do what it takes to get yourself into a position where you are enjoying the game more rather than expecting to never be in teams with new players.

Edited by Greyboots, 07 November 2013 - 02:14 PM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

I am sorry to disagree with you. I know that this would not be a popular post among people that consider themselves MWO "snipers" but it's just not that case. I have been in spectator mode with "snipers" many many times. Watching these "snipers" trying to get there zoom just right (most of the time they don't even have advances zoom). They fire at 1900, missing almost every time. Finally they do hit and it does next to nothing in damage. It's just not worth it. Hurts the team in the long run.

Just because you have spectated a few average skilled puggies trying to snipe, do not think that everyone who plays this game is at that level of skill. There are some who hit the majority of their shots out to 1000m and will kill mechs at significant range. Those players are an asset to their team the same as any brawler. What you have just said is "most of the players I have observed in MWO suck at long range shooting so they should stop doing it". Please don't extrapolate that to the entire player base.

[Jon Gotham]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I have never seen a light with ERLL/ERPPC do anything BUT not do its job. (not capping) Trying to run around and hit heavys at max range and doing 0 to 1 damage.. no help at all.

Sorry, if i see a guy has been working on enemy mech for some time and its about dead, I don't fire and take the kill. I am sure thats just me tho.

Erm.....eh?
Lights are to scout, they are to harass-to provide mobile fire support where it's needed.....if that means being a very fast 600m fire support then well......
Can't help but to disagree with you.

[Metalsand]

Have to disagree, certain mechs are suited for sniper builds, such as the Dragon-5N since you can swing the right gauss arm around a building corner and snipe at someone wtihout exposing your body, and x2-x3 gauss builds, which usually have glass armor but do about 45 damage and not 1.

[Dawnstealer]

I think some people need to realize there's a difference between a "long rifle" and a "sniper." For the people out there who are used to sniper rifles in other games, where one headshot will put someone down, they probably figure all they need is a couple gauss rifles and the Advanced Zoom module.

Had a game the other day where someone expressly stated they were a "sniper" when I made the usual request seeing if there were any LRM-users in the group that would make use of my TAG. Got an affirmative, then got "no: I'm a sniper."

Well, okay. End of the match, Commander Sniper had dealt a whopping 30 points of damage and had one assist.

There are some people out there who can do the long-rifle thing effectively, aiming and leading and doing enough help to soften up a target to make a difference. The problem is that MWO is a different kind of game than most first-person shooters: it's all about aggregate damage and accuracy.

You can do 50 points of damage to an Atlas' "head" and still not kill it. Meanwhile, while you're taking your amazing, well-placed shots that take minutes to set up, your team is getting wiped out.

Granted, there are some builds that are highly effective at hanging at the back of the action, or even a long ways off, and contributing to the fray, but the one-shot-one-kill thing just doesn't exist in this game and people should stop trying to pull it off.

Shots of opportunity from a distance? Go for it. Taking one shot every two minutes or so while "hiding" in your 60+ ton death machine? Not so much.

And that last point is my biggest problem with the snipers in MWO: inevitably, these builds are on Heavy or (more likely) Assault chassis. So not only is the build relatively ineffective in most matches, but it also means that the non-sniper Heavy/Assault on the other team is brawling its way through all your lighter teammates.

[JigglyMoobs]

I find that whether sniping tactics are effective depends a lot on the rest ofd the team. In a game on caustic last night I moved to the flank of the enemy line and shot up the line from a spot designed to forcethem to deal with me and therefore leave themselves culnerable to attack by my team.

This worked brilliantly and i kept literally half the enemy team facing the wrong way, trying to deal with me for what seemed like an eternity.

I fired shot after shot into enemy mechs, expecting my team to come over the crater rim at any time and roll up the guys facing me. That or roll up the other half of the enemy team, which was outnumbered 2 v 1. Howevermy team never showed!

I spent all of my 70 rounds, did over 600 damage, distracted 6 mechs and the team only showed up after i was out of ammo.

We also lost. Every mech I shot was hurt so badly that three of them died almost simultaneously when they ran intohe team, but we still lost. As forme, out of ammo and in the wrong mech to effect a fast base cap (they were near thwir base anyways) all i could do was run out in the open to distract some fire.

Never figured out what the team was doing while i shot my 70 rounds and faced down 2 stalkers, a bj, a phract, and a couple of other mechs practically on my own.

[Alistair Winter]

My Gauss Cicada does not approve of this thread.

[Li Song]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I have never seen a light with ERLL/ERPPC do anything BUT not do its job. (not capping) Trying to run around and hit heavys at max range and doing 0 to 1 damage.. no help at all.

Then you've not played in the higher ELO bracket my friend. I've seen many a cicada 3m with 2x ER LL do 500-600 damage per match (even on caustic valley) being on a side flank "sniping" (within or very close to their optimal range most of the time, mind you). I have even rocked a spider 5d game with over 800 damage and 7 kills when it was still 8v8 with only one ER PPC. Most of the game I was about 800m from my targets in a concealed location.

My conclusion is that you have simply not seen good light pilots do what they do.

[-Muta-]

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Its hard to hide a 50+ ton Mech and Unfortunately you have to be extremely lucky and I mean really lucky (AKA no skill on your part at all) to actually take someone out (kill them) at any extended range in MWO. Why you may ask? MWO weapons have diminishing returns after their maximum range. The other mech would have to be already severely damaged in order for your shot to actually kill them. In that case you are just a player that is stealing someones kill because you did no damage in the first place.

Let's put it this way...

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Its hard to hide a 50+ ton Mech

- Most snipers are heavy mechs with JJ's or Stalkers, but also lights as well e.g. RVN 3L x2 ERLLas

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Unfortunately you have to be extremely lucky and I mean really lucky (AKA no skill on your part at all) to actually take someone out (kill them) at any extended range in MWO

- What are you talking about? It actually requires a lot of skills from heat management to get to know your weapon's travel time.

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

The other mech would have to be already severely damaged in order for your shot to actually kill them.

- Snipers are actually the ones dealing the most damage and usually from long distances. So you got this completely wrong

Xmasterspy, on 21 October 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

In that case you are just a player that is stealing someones kill because you did no damage in the first place

- Kill Steal? You can't steal something that does not belong to anyone.


And remember that is a group of 12 that wins the battle. It is not about who deals the most damage or gets more kills.

What a lack of team commintment you show, sir.

Edited by Mutaroc, 15 November 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[thesleepyslam]

i play primarily dual gauss sniper on K2. Advanced sensor range+advanced zoom. My optimum engage range is 800-1200 meters. this is my build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9b6587621ffb3fb . i either get around 200-300 damage/match or 600-900 damage/match depending on what map i get. i can pretty consistently 3-4 shot jaggers at 800 meters in side torso, this is me doing an OK job. 800 meters hitting lights is somethin' i call out as a "nice shot". also shotting a light within 200 meters is a great shot.

The whole point of my play style it so shoot from so far away, that they can't lock on to me.

[Eaerie]

I have got to ask what is your big deal with "kill stealing"? First off, until that mech is dead you dont own any rights to him and If memory serves me right you get better rewards for assists than kills. More CBills, more XP. If you are that worried about padding your personal stats over playing as a team than you are playing the wrong game. Kill that mech i am dueling with IF you have a clear shot, the quicker he is made dead the less damage he does overall and the quicker the numbers game shifts in favor of your team. Just watch your lines of fire so you dont kill a friendly or get yourself killed by a stray shot.

[SchwarzerPeter]

I think you missed some points here in terms of sniping. Its more the role of designated makrsman, stay in the team and give long range support. Which is a perfect legit tactic.

Also your classic sniper role is possible, but it requires a fast mech with ecm (rave or cicada). And a lot of awares.

l

[RockmachinE]

Your definition of a MWO sniper is what's your problem. As a MWO "sniper and support" player with many many rounds of 1000+ damage, several kills and many assists even with the lightest mechs, I define sniping as follows:

The roles of a MWO sniper as defined by Louis Brofist:

• A sniper's role at the start is to spot enemy movement, report the direction of the main enemy group and potential smaller groups, keep count and get a general tactical and situational overview of initial enemy deployment and movement
  
• A sniper's role is to distract the enemy
  
• A sniper's role is to divert as much enemy attention as possible to himself allowing their team to advance
  
• A sniper's role is to divert LRM attacks onto him and resolve the situation either with countermeasures or manouvering
  
• A sniper's role is to keep the enemy in cover preventing them from getting a tactical overview of the situation
  
• A sniper's role is to protect the main group and it's flanks, preventing enemy incursion, flanking and encirclement
  
• A sniper's role is to engage enemies INDIRECTLY, dealing as much damage as possible while taking little damage himself independent of range
  
• A sniper's role is to be extremely mobile, expose enemy flanks and probe weaknesses in enemy flanks and defences
  
• A sniper's role is to engage and terminate stragglers, weak enemy mechs and scouts
  
• A sniper's role is to RTB when enemies cap (he will likely be behind the main group and must be fast)
  
• A sniper's role is to cap and force enemies to divert resources to defend the cap and split the group, not neccessarily to actually finish the cap
  
• A sniper's role is to close in on the enemy as soon as weakness is detected and act as a support role, dealing damage while sticking 50-200m away from the main skirmish and taking little or none himself
  
• A sniper's role, once close, is to divert attention to himself as soon as a friendly is taking too much damage or an assault is about to go down etc.
  
• Finally and again: a sniper's role in mwo is to engage enemies indirectly, meaning dealing damage while taking little to none himself

The requirements of a sniper mech, as defined by Louis Brofist:

• Fist and foremost, these are not set in stone and are up to the pilot's preferences, the following are what works for ME, I'm sure there are many skilled sniper pilots that prefer different setups, so rule number one is - construct and design a mech you are comfortable with
  
• A sniper mech needs to be extremely mobile and fast. ~90 kp/h should be the minimum speed of the mech
  
• A sniper mech needs to sacrifice heat/slots/armor tonnage for range and speed
  
• A sniper should utilize, as his primary weapon, extended range delivery systems (ER instead of regular, ACs with range etc.)
  
• A sniper mech needs backup armaments, close/medium quarter weapons of a strength equivalent to or exceeding 2 medium lasers for personal defense purposes, a sniper will often times be found alone
  
• A sniper needs countermeasures or speed as he will often be the target of LRMs, which is desired
  
• A sniper needs to be setup in order to be able to deal close and medium support when required

To elaborate a little bit, a sniper is not to be a static mech, sitting at 1200m taking pot shots at the enemy, now this is a viable tactic if the situation demands it and actually helps yoru team, but you should disengage this method as soon as the situation dictates otherwise.



A good sniper in a MWO game is a huge asset, I can't count how many time my actions gave our team the edge and allowed us to win, this is not my bias or arrogance it is fact. Its a team game, there's 3 lances of 4 mechs each a dedicated sniper boosts overall tactical performance and is a huge force multiplier.

Don't rip on the sniper, rip on people who missinterpret the role and don't play them properly!

Edited by Louis Brofist, 16 November 2013 - 11:38 AM.