95 replies to this topic

[Reptilizer]

Hi there fellow Mechaficionados!

I tried to PUG in two LRM-heavy mechs yesterday and it still was horrible. The weapon system is simply not balanced very well, but i have no clue what to do about it.

Problem is:

• When used against n00bs who take no cover, the system is OP. I still shred clueless assaults and heavies walking happily in the open.
  
• When playing against decent fellows in a PUG match, the system is incredibly weak. Cover rules, rocks and buildings are OP. We still have a sniping-heavy meta. You can not snipe with LRMs.
  
• When playing with a dedicated spotter, the system still can work well. But you need at least two pilots who know what they are doing. And even then: When both pilots get in something with dakka instead, they are even more effective.

Result:
LRMs seem OP when used against weak players, but lack the necessary punch when playing at a decent PUG-level or in groups. They may still work, but are in fact a liability when the player(s) could as well have used a ballistics/PPC based build.

I do not know how to break this up really. Especially as LRMs are the only indirect fire weapon the game has (auto-hit SSRMs are not comparable). Having an indirect fire mechanic brings some much needed variability to the fights. But as it seems, the only ones using LRMs on a regular basis are either less efficient than they could be in other setups or hardcore enthusiasts.

I really would appreciate any suggestions how to make the current system better balanced between n00b play and experienced players. I myself could not come up with something decent however...

[Mr 144]

Line of Sight = Flat Trajectory
Indirect Fire = Current Trajectory

[Postumus]

LRMs as currently envisioned have a very marginal niche, and are mostly absent from competitive play. They are too slow to be an effective long range weapon, and too unreliable to provide efficient DPS, and have a very low skill cap, meaning there are relatively few "tricks" that can be employed to increase their effectiveness, beyond just getting closer to your target or firing at exposed targets. You cannot improve your LRM aim in the way that you can develop skills with direct fire weapons. Finally, they just feel underwhelming to use, and outside of LRM 40+ volleys they do not provide much intimidation.

I say, dramatically increase LRM speed, greatly flatten trajectory for LOS targets, and then reduce damage and tracking speed accordingly. This would make LRMs more consistent at all distances, greatly improve their viability as an actual long range weapon, and in general feel more like a fast, deadly missile barrage.

[Thorqemada]

Take AMS out of the game, change Ammo to 0.5 Tons/Slot at half the current ammo count, give 3 fire modes:
Indirect Full Volley Area Saturation, Direct Full Volley Area Saturation, Direct Chainfire LRM Sniping.
All Launchers count as 1 Superlauncher per Mech, 5 Tubes be 1 Modul of the Launcher.
Reload Time = Basic amount + X per Module, Launcher does not reload until all intact Modules are emptied and not fire until all intact Modules are loaded.
Each defective LRM Modude increases the reload time by Y%.

Direct/Indirect Saturation Mode: 5 Missiles each hit in a predefined Matrix around the central coordinates of the impact area and hit anything in the vicinity - low direct damage, bigger splash damage.
Artemis/Narc increase the damage on the targetted, Narced Mech inside the imapct area.
Indirect Fire has a high trajectory, only high obstacles and "LRM umbrellas" like tunnels, roofs offer cover.
Direct Fire has a medium tracectory, lower obstacles in the LOS offer cover also, the to hit Chance is increased outside of cover.

LRM Sniping: Chainfire of 5 Missiles per Volley with good direct damage and low splash damage, Flat trajectory, even the smallest obstacle can help to cover.
Artemis gives an increase to the overall damage, Narc/Tag increases the damage on the narced/taqgged location, do not stack but interfere with each other and spread the damage bonus up between them.

Narc - Mech braodcasts its Location and is visible to anyone if not ruled out by ECM.

ECM: Hides Mech outside LOS, does negate Artemis/Narc, increase Lock On times, prevent Target Detail info, puts enemy Mechs inside a specific range to Radio Silence (decreases the frequency of updating the battlegrid data) and never ever prevents IFF data.
Does not Counter ECM.

BAP: Can snoop ECM Mechs, Counters ECM, increases Sensor Range and speeds up Lock On.

Well...

Edited by Thorqemada, 22 October 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[Herbstwind]

Reptilizer, on 21 October 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

• When playing against decent fellows in a PUG match, the system is incredibly weak. Cover rules, rocks and buildings are OP. We still have a sniping-heavy meta. You can not snipe with LRMs.

Do not underestimate the use of supressive fire. It may not be the most fun thing to do for a dedicated LRM boat to just force the enemy into cover, scoring only little damage and no kills.
But if used correctly, suppressing the enemy can be quite useful. It depends largely on the ability of your team to make use of the possibility to outmanoeuvre and flank the enemy ... but teamwork is OP

Edited by Herbstwind, 22 October 2013 - 12:11 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

They wouldn't be too bad as a suppression tool if it weren't for the fact that any ECM on the enemy team turns them into a waste of tonnage. TAG isn't the answer because if you can paint your target with a laser you could have shot it with a PPC instead for vastly better effect. I think if direct fired LRMs were much faster it could make them less of a comedy weapon in direct firefights.

[Mr 144]

Herbstwind, on 22 October 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Do not underestimate the use of supressive fire. It may not be the most fun thing to do for a dedicated LRM boat to just force the enemy into cover, scoring only little damage and no kills.
But if used correctly, suppressing the enemy can be quite useful. It depends largely on the ability of your team to make use of the possibility to outmanoeuvre and flank the enemy ... but teamwork is OP

/agreed...

My Troll LRM phract is a blast to play, but does minimal actual damage. The strangest thing is it seems to be my 'lucky' mech with decent KDR and by far my highest W/L ratio. While I primarily use it for late night Pugging, lately I've grouped while running it and others have seen this bizarre luck of W/L ratios. Sucky Feel-Bad Damage....but good KDR and excellent W/L tells me I'm trolling right and suppression does contribute

Edited by Mr 144, 22 October 2013 - 12:21 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Herbstwind, on 22 October 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Do not underestimate the use of supressive fire. It may not be the most fun thing to do for a dedicated LRM boat to just force the enemy into cover, scoring only little damage and no kills.
But if used correctly, suppressing the enemy can be quite useful. It depends largely on the ability of your team to make use of the possibility to outmanoeuvre and flank the enemy ... but teamwork is OP

This!

Problem is not the LRMs, problem is most poeple play for the personal kill. Playing for the team, helping to win...nope, not on their agenda. That's why LRMs were so unpopular when they where "weak". They never were as supressive weapons, but people simply believed the forums and the forums said "LRMs are dead". The forum is always right. ^^

[Kuritaclan]

Every time the same old story. Come on. It makes a huge difference if all enemy mechs are hid behind cover like cowards or if they could setup a defensiv line to shoot your mechs with focusfire, while your are the one who wanna have a quick look what that they are doing. LRMs don't do impressiv numbers, but they force an enemy into cover. This is the time your team have the chance to own the sight! And if you have many Mechs who own the sight and can fokus a mech down who trys to take a look you will win.

Everytime i only see "ego-player" complains about how bad LRMs are, because those players don't kill enemy mech one on one within seconds like sniper does or dakka dakka DPS riders. So what - nobody cares about your mimimi. Are LRM users useless. No they arn't they do specific task! And it isn't a hard job to do it. But if it is done correctly then your team have a high chance to win the match! LRMs don't protect you against organized groups who can underrun your radar/line to open a close range brawl situation. But hey you know what, if this happens you have lost anyhow, because they have an advantage position since they know what they will do in the next few moments while your own team have to react to it.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 22 October 2013 - 01:11 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

A speed increase for the missiles and LRM warning only if you carry AMS would do the job.

[Reptilizer]

Mr 144, on 21 October 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

Line of Sight = Flat Trajectory
Indirect Fire = Current Trajectory

I know the arguments for the flat trajectory and i will not dismiss them as flawed. BUT this is difficult to implement correctly.
A big friendly mech right before you would count as disturbing your LOS and by thus granting indirect fire trajectory.
A mech walking into your LOS after firing would be a target.
To make this viable, missile speed would have to be increased massively and missile spread would have to be reduced to allow relevant contribution from the second row without being a permanent risk to your own m8s.
And i do not want to turn LRM based mechs into frontline mechs. Somehow does not fit their role for me.

[xengk]

The best way to use LRM in PUG is fire them into a brawl.
See 2 Atlas/Battlemaster circling each other trying to sniff each other's buttock?
Add 40 LRMs every few seconds to speed up the dance.

[Zolaz]

Ya'll act like the Devs read the boards. lol

[FinsT]

Reptilizer, on 21 October 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

...
Result:
LRMs seem OP when used against weak players, but lack the necessary punch when playing at a decent PUG-level or in groups. They may still work, but are in fact a liability when the player(s) could as well have used a ballistics/PPC based build.
...

I have a noobish opinion which is much different. Note, i am not a part of any truly decent company yet, nor could i say i play in "decent" PUGs (mainly i lack a point of reference; may be i do, - but how could i know? Playing MWO for ~month so far).

There is a fine point about LRMs if/when we speak about decent PUGs or premades. And this fine point - is not to kill; it's to control the battlefield. Happens like this: you and your friend in LRM boats join the main force. Arrive to the front line. Staying safely in/near good cover yourself, you then unleash a scary-looking (read - large) salvoes of LRMs to any enemy who's spotted even for a moment. It doesn't matter if your and your friends' LRMs hit or not - enemies' main force see the show, and, since we talk about decent PuG or a premade, - they instantly know that getting into any open brawl, - is a death sentense. Because your large LRM volleys will do a quick werk outta anyone who gotta try that, - and no person in enemy team wants to be that brave (or, should we say, that stupid) one.

End result: you got enemy stuck. They can't advance.

In case their team lacks same-scale (or better) LRM support, - your team is free to slowly pick around, find a weakness in their position, attack it, - or, if there's none, just do a concentrated rush (possibly with a quick retreat if needed). I.e., you gave your team much operational freedom then and there.

In case their team has similar or better LRM support, - both teams are stuck. Frontal assault is (more often than not) suicidal. And then, flanking, lights, good spotters, capping (whenever applicable and beneficial), - i.e. other means to achieve victory, - become not just available, but critically important.

In a sense, LRMs turn the game from a brutal teeth-and-claw massacre into much more intelligent and compelx process. And they don't need to deal a single point of damage to do so, - simply a _threat_ of massive damage is what important.

Edited by FinsT, 22 October 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Herbstwind, on 22 October 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

Do not underestimate the use of supressive fire. It may not be the most fun thing to do for a dedicated LRM boat to just force the enemy into cover, scoring only little damage and no kills.
But if used correctly, suppressing the enemy can be quite useful. It depends largely on the ability of your team to make use of the possibility to outmanoeuvre and flank the enemy ... but teamwork is OP

Kuritaclan, on 22 October 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

*snip*
Are LRM users useless. No they arn't they do specific task! And it isn't a hard job to do it. But if it is done correctly then your team have a high chance to win the match!
*snip*

FinsT, on 22 October 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

*snip*
In a sense, LRMs turn the game from a brutal teeth-and-claw massacre into much more intelligent and compelx process. And they don't need to deal a single point of damage to do so, - simply a _threat_ of massive damage is what important.

As much as i would like this to be true, from my personal point of view it is not.

Yes, i can lay some supressive barrage and yes, i can force some enemy mechs to take cover. This is of course beneficial for my team. But is this benefit greater than putting two PPC rounds into the face of an enemy mech peeking over the ridge?
This is of course highly personal, but laying a missile barrage just does not cut it when comparing it to some solid slugs to the face.

I do not care about a low damage rating and getting kills is not a high priority also, but i actually do feel strong when it comes to being a liability on the side of my team when instead i could have done more to help the bunch firing some AC10.
This is even more sad because i like my LRM builds very much. It is fun to play them. And i like the variety the whole LRM system brings to the battlefield even when i am on the receiving end. But every match i run my LRM builds, the little devil on my shoulder keeps telling me what an *** i am as far as team contribution goes.

[Wolfways]

Reptilizer, on 21 October 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Hi there fellow Mechaficionados!

I tried to PUG in two LRM-heavy mechs yesterday and it still was horrible. The weapon system is simply not balanced very well, but i have no clue what to do about it.

By "LRM-heavy" you mean boated right?

Quote

Problem is:

• When used against n00bs who take no cover, the system is OP. I still shred clueless assaults and heavies walking happily in the open.

No more OP than firing on a mech with other boated weapons.

Also: http://mwomercs.com/...lrms-revisited/

Edited by Wolfways, 22 October 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Wolfways, on 22 October 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

By "LRM-heavy" you mean boated right?


[/list]No more OP than firing on a mech with other boated weapons.

Also: http://mwomercs.com/...lrms-revisited/

Nope, LRM60 cat would be a boat for me.
I mean stuff like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cf8d9f2c64eee3e

Edit: smurfylink

Edited by Reptilizer, 22 October 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Navy Sixes]

Reptilizer, on 22 October 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cf8d9f2c64eee3e

Do you really run with all that ammo snuggled-up beside your XL in your ST? I'd put the JJ in your sides and the LRM/AMS ammo in your legs/head, with the one extra in the left arm. You'll live longer with this build, I think.

[Reptilizer]

Tycho von Gagern, on 22 October 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

Do you really run with all that ammo snuggled-up beside your XL in your ST? I'd put the JJ in your sides and the LRM/AMS ammo in your legs/head, with the one extra in the left arm. You'll live longer with this build, I think.

Cats die from center torso coring. Like, always.
But else: Me is a paranoid one. Neither ammo- nor armordistribution is as in "my build" and i also got a different engine size. Take it as a sample for possible weapons loadout, not more

[Khobai]

Part of the problem is that weapons like the AC/5 outrange LRMs when theyre not supposed to. AC/5s can do damage way past 1000m but LRMs cant. So by the time youre in LRM range youre already being dominated by AC/5s.

I think LRMs need their range increased to 1200m and their travel speed increased by 20%.