132 replies to this topic

[Helbrecht]

Death Storm, on 23 October 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

You are missing the point

Its not fair on the PUGs against organised teams because they get slaughtered plus new players and solo player get picked of by Pre made clans. Question how it unfair to put Pre made clans against Pre made clans.I would look at it as being fair plus that extra chaellenge. Its not fair to put PUGs (Individual player) up against Pre Made Clans because I have read threads where people are getting fed up and saying there is no fun in being (FACE ROLLED BY PRE MADES) you will start loose poeple who join the game.

If you have not noticed there have been lot poeple leaving the game because there getting tired being put in fights against pre made clans check the reviews.

no thier leaving the game cause thiers nothing other than a mech grind to do and that gets boring. period. and i can almost guarantee you thier premades on both side of the ball every game. to counter your point you say because thiers lack of communication on teams that instead of fixing that we should just get rid of teams. sorry brother but that makes no sense.

Again i award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

Edited by Helbrecht, 23 October 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

WarHippy, on 23 October 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

For Elo to work properly the game would need to be 1 on 1 like Chess which the Elo system was designed for. Given that will never happen we will continue to see 12-0 stomps from time to time. However, let's say it was working correctly as you put it, and even then 12-0 could still happen. It is just going to average out to closer matches, but you will still have outliers.

Yes, Elo was intended to rate the skill level of individual players to ensure that 1 vs 1 matches would be fair. However, this principle is not limited to 1 vs 1 as long as the players are all SOLO. Once you try to balance the disparity between the skill levels of grouped players, it causes unbalanced matches.

So, I still maintain that the MM would have an easier time creating balanced matches if it was working with a solo-only queue. If the MM were to place players with the same approximate skill level instead of trying to balance and counter-balance by placing a sum total of Elo scores like it does now, you would not have 12:0 wipes except upon extremely rare occasions. The majority of matches would end in 12:6, with the occasional grueling slug-fest ending in 12:10. That's a properly balanced match.

In other words, if a 12:0 match occurs, MM is not working properly. 12:0 wipes do not occur when all the players are of equal skill, except under extremely rare circumstances. It should NOT be a common occurrence like it is now.

[WarHippy]

Bhael Fire, on 23 October 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes, Elo was intended to rate the skill level of individual players to ensure that 1 vs 1 matches would be fair. However, this principle is not limited to 1 vs 1 as long as the players are all SOLO. Once you try to balance the disparity between the skill levels of grouped players, it causes unbalanced matches.

So, I still maintain that the MM would have an easier time creating balanced matches if it was working with a solo-only queue. If the MM were to place players with the same approximate skill level instead of trying to balance and counter-balance by placing a sum total of Elo scores like it does now, you would not have 12:0 wipes except upon extremely rare occasions. The majority of matches would end in 12:6, with the occasional grueling slug-fest ending in 12:10. That's a properly balanced match.

In other words, if a 12:0 match occurs, MM is not working properly. 12:0 wipes do not occur when all the players are of equal skill, except under extremely rare circumstances. It should NOT be a common occurrence like it is now.

Do you have any proof that it is a common occurrence now, because I am not seeing it?

People being in a group shouldn't matter to the MM if it looking at everyone individually so why does it matter? If the grouped up people win more just because of better communication they will move up to a higher Elo where the communication skill gap doesn't matter because they are either against other players in groups, or players that are just plain good enough that they overcome the communication disadvantage. As individuals and groups move up and down the rankings odd ball games are going to happen. You will always have the random game of 12-0 even in a solo only queue.

[Fabe]

Syllogy, on 23 October 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

MWO PUG Rule #1: If my team wins it's because I'm awesome; if my team loses it's because the other team has premades.

Pro Tip: In most cases, there is no reliable way to tell which team has premades and which team doesn't.

don't forget the " if my team loses its because my teammates were bad players." excuse

[Fabe]

Bhael Fire, on 23 October 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Just putting this here before that same vocal community does; they will just say "Get on TS and form up a group."

What they don't realize is that there are a LOT of players that don't want to have to run third party software just to be able to communicate with their team....and there are many others that do not have the time to sit and wait in a TS lobby just to form up a group.

In-game VOIP would be a huge relief for many of these players. However, I still think the MM is never going to function properly as long as grouped players are allowed to play with solo players.

Agreed, A game this dependent on teamwork should not require the player to go out side the game and then wounder though a third party program looking for a group before going back to the game,friending strangers that you maybe or maybe not want to play with again so you can form a in game group with them. We need a in game chat for pugs,preferably one with a on/off option or the ability to mute individual players.

Edited by Fabe, 23 October 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Grey Death Storm]

Helbrecht, on 23 October 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

no thier leaving the game cause thiers nothing other than a mech grind to do and that gets boring. period. and i can almost guarantee you thier premades on both side of the ball every game. to counter your point you say because thiers lack of communication on teams that instead of fixing that we should just get rid of teams. sorry brother but that makes no sense.

Again i award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

You have miss under stood what I said I did not say that "your point you say because theirs lack of communication on teams that instead of fixing that we should just get rid of teams." I never said get rid of Teams I assume you are talking about Premades, I said split the teams so it was PUGS Vs PUGS and Premades VS Premades.

there can be a lack of communication between PUGs also the fact everyone has to use Keyboard to speak is not best way for communication. and if you want to understand what I meant by PUGS weakness read my previous Posts please.

Also why do you state this "Again i award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul." ???

Edited by Death Storm, 23 October 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[w0rm]

Bhael Fire, on 23 October 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes, Elo was intended to rate the skill level of individual players to ensure that 1 vs 1 matches would be fair. However, this principle is not limited to 1 vs 1 as long as the players are all SOLO.

This is flat out wrong. A modified ELO is widely used in team sports like football, soccer and baseball.

[RussianWolf]

I've said this elsewhere.

The current queue is fine for veterans. What is needed is a recruit queue for them to learn the game.

Recruit queue should be Trial/completely stock mechs only (that way everyone is playing in a suckie mech) with no groups allowed. If a veteran wants to play in it, he would be dropping solo with trial or stock mech. If he can still roll/stomp then all the more power to him.

Veteran queue would be exactly what we have now.

This would provide a level playing field with mostly new players that are all learning the systems to begin with.

[Bhael Fire]

w0rm, on 24 October 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

This is flat out wrong. A modified ELO is widely used in team sports like football, soccer and baseball.

Says the person that thinks Elo is an acronym.

[NextGame]

This. Thread. Again.

the community does not need split any further than it already is.

instead of people complaining about groups of up to 4 dropping into games with the rest of the general population they should consider the following.

1) How would they like to be unable to group up and play with their friends?

2) Is the onus not in fact actually on the solo player to up their game rather than demand the mechanics change to revolve around their level? One obvious way is to join a team. I posted in the recruitment thread and got like 8 invites within the space of as many hours, and in this game I am nothing to write home about. there are plenty of units constantly looking for more people to play with (including the one I joined, in fact I have never encountered such an abundance of opportunities in any online shooters I've played in the best part of the last 20 years.).

3) It's your choice to use or not use what is available to you, i.e. teamspeak. If YOU dont want to use it, DONT, but don't complain that OTHERS are using methods and resource that are both legitimate and within the spirit of the game on the basis that you don't feel like it.

Edit: spelling/paragraph reconfiguration.

Edited by NextGame, 24 October 2013 - 06:30 AM.

[Martin Oberhofer]

I play 99.9% of the time solo,
I don`t have the impression that MM is so bad

in the last 100 Matches i had maybe one or two 12:0/0:12

often a disconnect at the beginng makes a big difference.
I always ask myself what kind of players dont write a single msg and complain afterward about how bad thier lance/team was....
I feel that group of players growing - sadly

One problem for ELO is surely that we dont perform the same in one mech as in an other, and i am not talking about weight classes or such. AS7 - i cant get the damn standart D to work -> D-DC (locigly) or RS yes so bringing 100tons to battle
my kill/death ratios are D 0.92 / 2.57 / 2.32 - should MM go per variant then?

I own even a collection of fun mechs - not effective but real fun -> how should ELO know that?

[Blurry]

Helbrecht, on 22 October 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

NO!

in no way does your post make any logical sense as to why in a team based game the better organized teams should be punished. and the lone wolf players be rewarded. in fact thier uping the amount of player per group from 4 to an unspecified amount. this is a good change since not being able to play with your team killed off alot of the teams in this game already.

I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

So the only way you can win is an unfair fight? I see......

The only way you will play is if the odds are so far in your favor you are assured victory.

And why is it most PvP is separated by a solo and team q everywhere else?


I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

Let me be honest - I have been playing a few weeks now.

I rarely have a fun game that comes down to the wire 10/11 -12 that happens maybe 5% of the time.
The rest of the time it is 3/4-12 a pure blow out. That isnt fun at all for either side. (which every u are on)
Yesterday 50% of my matches started with only 11 mechs.

What I have seen is you win/lose is selected before you play and only on a rare chance does a fun game ever happen. Otherwise it is cannon fodder or target practice.

New players like me spending money can keep this game going but if we are stomped or go on an unnatural winning streak - it kills the fun.

All I want is to have fun and a real chance at winning - but by my observations that isnt possible.
The match maker spins the match up, the match maker decides how long it will be, match maker cuts the game. 3 fates.

Put fate in my hands please not the match maker.

Edited by Blurry, 29 October 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[Roland]

The current system makes it impossible to play in the 12 man queue unless you have EXACTLY 12 men online.

So most teams are forced to drop in groups of 4 in the regular queue.

Basically, the queuing system is horrifically implemented and totally fails to achieve any of its intended goals.

[RussianWolf]

Blurry, on 29 October 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

So the only way you can win is an unfair fight? I see......

The only way you will play is if the odds are so far in your favor you are assured victory.

And why is it most PvP is separated by a solo and team q everywhere else?


I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.

Let me be honest - I have been playing a few weeks now.

I rarely have a fun game that comes down to the wire 10/11 -12 that happens maybe 5% of the time.
The rest of the time it is 3/4-12 a pure blow out. That isnt fun at all for either side. (which every u are on)
Yesterday 50% of my matches started with only 11 mechs.

What I have seen is you win/lose is selected before you play and only on a rare chance does a fun game ever happen. Otherwise it is cannon fodder or target practice.

New players like me spending money can keep this game going but if we are stomped or go on an unnatural winning streak - it kills the fun.

All I want is to have fun and a real chance at winning - but by my observations that isnt possible.
The match maker spins the match up, the match maker decides how long it will be, match maker cuts the game. 3 fates.

Put fate in my hands please not the match maker.

Why are you surprised?

Most matches it takes at least 2-3 minutes to start after you press the launch button. It can take another 2 minutes to get into a position to engage the enemy. That's 5 minutes before the action starts. And there are those so determined to get the win that they go straight for a base cap and end the game a minute after battle commences.

Fun?

Wasn't fun for me, can't imagine that it was fun for them.

I came to fight. I've run on a very disorganized three man once. No voice comms and about the only thing typed in was "got some in C4". I am a solo dropper. I can hang with anyone, but that's my preference.

Many teams don't want a competitive experience. They want easy targets. Easy wins. They live and die by their stats apparently.

I've seen some of these "competitive" teams in action.
"okay guys, Target Bravo" everyone shoots Bravo until he drops. "next up is Golf" Everyone shoot Golf until he drops.
I don't even see the fun in that. Someone else telling me how to play? Nope, ain't happening.

The queue does need to be split, but not for myself.

Recruit queue - solo drop only with Trial/Stock mechs only. A place to learn the mechanics with a level playing field in terms of mechs.
Veteran queue - what we have right now. Solos and teams up to 4, bring any mech and loadout you want. (I'll still be playing in this one)

[cSand]

Been pugging since day one and will till the end.

Here's how you do it:

- give your ballz a squeeze and stop attributing your suckage to premades, poptarting, acs, whatever build has the ire of the forums at that time, etc.
- don't run out by yourself unless you can make it back to support by yourself
- be a man and join assaults. Keep an eye on the mini map to see what the team is doing in general. Use "R"
- usually if you ask / issue an order, a few people will follow you if it isn't the stupidest thing they've ever heard. Also you can talk to people mostly they're not all a**holes.

Edited by cSand, 31 October 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[Navy Sixes]

Hellcat420, on 22 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

they do not put teams of pugs against teams of premades.

Got a link? Got a quote? Or have you premers been saying this so loud and often that you're starting to believe your own noise?

Hellcat420, on 22 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

just because premades don't announce themselves at the beginning of a match does not mean they are not on your team.

Is this the premers new "fall back" argument? "ELO/Matchmaker is totally whacked, but it's batting 100 when it comes to always balancing opposing prems in the PUG?" That's really funny, and not just because with the current borked state of matchmaking it's highly unlikely. It's funny because a couple of months ago the argument was "Dude, prems don't announce themselves, so you can't prove there are prems in the PUG. Quit making stuff up and learn to play!" Now it's, "Dude, prems don't announce themselves, so just assume they are there and learn to play!." (!?!?!)

And finally, this deeply, deeply, deeply flawed argument bypasses the real issue. Prems rely on teamwork and coordination. Solo Puggers are honning their individual skills (whether you're new and figuring the game out, or an old vet 'brushing up.') It is not fair to ask one group's performance to hinge on the others: It doesn't matter how well you perform as an individual: if their prem is better than your prem, your chances for winning just dropped exponentially. Conversely, as the OP points out, in 12v12, if your Solo PUG teammates are all weak as individuals compared to the Solo PUGs on the other side, all of your teamwork and coordination are probably not going to be able to carry them (or yourself) to a win.

So you get a lot of people upset, insisting that dropping prems in with solos is a bad idea. Considering the above, it makes sense. It's so rare to get a good, balanced fight out of this game when prems and solos are dropped together, and it's those good, balanced fights that we're all craving right?

Apparently not. I get the people who want a seperate PUG for solos/prems. What really confuses me is all the resistance.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 31 October 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Burke IV]

More times than i care to count the match maker will drop a group of brand new people, missile boats, making sure that there are very few or no assults on a team. Then it will stack the other team multiple atlases 3,4,5 of them and all the ECM in the world.

I dont understand why it puts all the assults and all the ecm on one team. The reasons why it does this... hell thats PGIs problem, im just here to tell them its terrible and broken. Overy easy wins are nearly as bad as being on the team that got shafted.

[Roadbeer]

This thread is new and exciting. It needs a poll.

[WarHippy]

Roadbeer, on 31 October 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

This thread is new and exciting. It needs a poll.

No, it just needs closed. This thread is just pointless bickering, and besides your opinion is now invalid having been defeated in stompy combat by me.

Edited by WarHippy, 31 October 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Roadbeer]

WarHippy, on 31 October 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

... besides your opinion is now invalid having been defeated in stompy combat by me.

I was waiting for that, I demand a rematch.