209 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Here is my omnimech thread
http://mwomercs.com/...-another-issue/

Since it would be nearly impossible to attack clan weapons from a crit-slot/weight point of view, as stock mechs are all technically canon variants, and altering these values would make some canon variants impossible.

Lets stick to these three different scales for weapons. Damage, Range, and Heat. (ammo is usually better balanced on a case by case basis, so we will skip that for now).


Inner Sphere weapons in canon typically did less damage and generated less heat, but were much shorter ranged. Clan weapons did quite a bit more damage, generated more heat, and were longer ranged.

We have multiple options to bring clan weapons in line here.

Since heat, loss of damage, and loss of range are all considered nerfs, any buff to one value has to bring the others down as a cost.

We can either: Leave high range and heat, but bring down damage, or bring down heat and range to add damage.

The key to balancing here is that clan tech must be unique, but a side step. If you prefer using clan tech you should be allowed to use it, but it should bring different advantages and disadvantages to the battlefield.

Since tabletop values will simply invalidate inner sphere weapons, we can rule those out altogether.

As was mentioned in my last thread, we already established clan weapons as being mixed tech, whilst clan tech is pure-tech, so keep that in mind.

TLDR: Clan weapons are OP, nerf range to bring up damage or nerf damage to bring up range

FEEL FREE TO ADD TO THIS, SUBTRACT FROM IT, PICK IT APART, CRITICIZE IT, SACRIFICE IT TO APPEASE PAUL INOUYE, ETC. MORE IDEAS IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING, JUST KEEP IT CIVILIZED!

[MaxStr]

I'd save this for a few years so you can post it when they come out with clan stuff.

[CoffiNail]

imo Clan weapons should keep their range and damage buffs, the weight and crit slots stay canon and lighter/smaller, the heat should stay above IS equivilents, but as well I think a good method could be to increase cooldowns on the Clan weapons as well. I mean, A Warhawk may have a lot of DHS and Clan ERPPCs but if it stays on track with MWO you will have a hell of a time with those heat and ghost heat. If you can fire less often, so your DPS goes down, but your alpha goes up.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

One important piece of information to bring into the discussion is precedents set by past mechwarrior games (notably MW4 and MW:LL)

In both games, Clan Tech carried its clan signatures of requiring less Tonnage, Criticals, and often had more damage and heat generation. Range is a variable that like ammo, should be balanced by weapon as a final pass for balance.

The biggest difference in those two games to balance out IS vs Clan (despite Clans seeming outright superior) was that IS tech weaponry had significantly lower recycle rates and therefore much higher DPS.

For instance, in MW4, a Clan Gauss Rifle weighed 13 tons, but had a recycle rate of 8 seconds. The IS model only had a recycle rate of 6 seconds, despite being 2 tons heavier.

IS Pulse Lasers in MW:LL had slightly less range, and less heat, (tonnage was irrelevant since there was no mechlab, but assuming they did weigh more) but a much faster rate of fire. This made IS tech better for long drawn out battles due to the lower heat and higher overall DPS, but Clan Tech would be more superior in terms of tonnage, crits, and burst damage.

The general rule of thumb is that IS tech should run cooler, and have a higher DPS (shorter recycle rates) while Clan Tech should weigh less, less crits, and higher burst damage due to long recycle rates and high heat.

As for LRMs, that is a whole other can of worms. PGI can't even get LRMs in an IS tech only environment to be consistnat enough to be worth a damn. Who knows what mess PGI will be in for when they have to make half tonned LRMs that have no minimum range.

[HugoStiglitz]

CoffiNail, on 23 October 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

imo Clan weapons should keep their range and damage buffs, the weight and crit slots stay canon and lighter/smaller, the heat should stay above IS equivilents, but as well I think a good method could be to increase cooldowns on the Clan weapons as well. I mean, A Warhawk may have a lot of DHS and Clan ERPPCs but if it stays on track with MWO you will have a hell of a time with those heat and ghost heat. If you can fire less often, so your DPS goes down, but your alpha goes up.

What would stop me from fitting 6 CERPPCs on a Stalker and chain firing them? Heat? Each PPC will have a lower heat per sec with that longer CD and you can throw on 6 more DHS with the wieght you save. The CD? I can chain fire them in a way to get 3x30 damage shots, if I fire in a way to avoid heat penelty, and with the lower heat per second as compared to IS, I would be able to fire them more and have a higher realistic DPS even if the IS has a higher potential DPS. Any sort of heat increase the clan weapons get would be invalidated by giving them longer CDs if the HPS is still the same or lower because you can just fit more weapons on there for a higher overall damage output. They already had one problem with a high alpha strategy and jump sniping. I don't think they will make the Clan Weapons the "high alpha" weapons that would only bring that strategy back with a vengance. OPs thoughts make sense here, give clan weapons a niche to fill over IS weapons, but allow the IS weapons to have their own niche.

One possible example, Clan LRM-20s wiegh half of their IS counterparts for same heat and slightly longer recycle time (instead of 4.75 sec have it 5.50 sec) with no minimum range and a max range of 750m and lose indirect fire and you could also fiddle with the flight time of the missiles too (since you can do this with every weapon except lasers, this could also be used to balance clan tech). The extra .75s on the recycle time could be shared by all clan LRMs and would reflect the arming time of the missiles since the warheads aren't arming in air, like thier IS counterparts. Personally I feel that this would have a nice niche on the battlefield to add to an all range brawler mech while still giving the IS LRMs a role as a support mech weapon system. But those are just my thoughts, I just want them implemented in a way that allows for IS tech to be used along side clan tech.

Edited by HugoStiglitz, 23 October 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Spurowny]

I predict that clan balance will be attempted via the ghost heat system. Clan weapons will incur greater ghost heat at lower thresholds
Example: you can fire 6 IS med lasers without ghost heat, but only 3 clan er med lasers
you can fire 2 IS PPCs without ghostheat but only 1 CERPPC
and so on.

I'm not saying it's a good system or a bad one, just the system i expect them to try first.

[CyclonerM]

Spurowny, on 23 October 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

I predict that clan balance will be attempted via the ghost heat system. Clan weapons will incur greater ghost heat at lower thresholds
Example: you can fire 6 IS med lasers without ghost heat, but only 3 clan er med lasers
you can fire 2 IS PPCs without ghostheat but only 1 CERPPC
and so on.

I'm not saying it's a good system or a bad one, just the system i expect them to try first.

Agreed, but they already stated they will try also the nerf way..
BTW, why there are at least 3 or 4 different topics about Clan tech ? I assume most of the Clan players are concerned about this matter..

[pbiggz]

CyclonerM, on 23 October 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Agreed, but they already stated they will try also the nerf way..
BTW, why there are at least 3 or 4 different topics about Clan tech ? I assume most of the Clan players are concerned about this matter..

I made 2, and as far as i'm concerned they're the only ones with a real discussion. The other threads are narrow minded idiots singing to each other about their fantasies of 10v12 ques and hard-core puretech with clan tech still brokenly op.

Edited by pbiggz, 23 October 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Apologies if this has been suggested, as quite frankly after skimming the honor thread to get back into the forum-clanner mindset I fear I might have contracted cancer and wished to avoid an additional dose of text carcinogens, but with the mechanics of lasers in Mechwarrior Online, there is a potential way to buff damage on them without increasing their damage output: Beam duration.

Take a medium laser, for an example: It currently deals 5 damage over a period of, what, .75 seconds was it? So for that duration, you need to hold the beam perfectly onto a single point to inflict the full 5 damage to the spot you wish to hit. Against an opponent that is actively attempting not to be shot, it is more than likely you will smear the beam across multiple segments.

What if C-ERMLas put out the same damage but with half the beam duration? What if C-Pulse lasers were dealt in two pulses instead of three? A higher percentage of damage would be inflicted on the desired location without directly buffing the damage output of the weapon itself. Combined with the increased range of ER, let alone Clan ER laser technologies, it would go quite a ways to making the weapons superior while not making them any more damaging. The flip side to this would be that accuracy would be all the more important, as you cannot drag a missed laser onto a target as the beam duration would be far too short. This would straddle the lines of advantage without being outright overpowering, which seems to be the stated goal by PGI.

And, yes, I do realize how fitting it is that a Nova Cat is talking about laser implementation options, given our history of extended range laser technology advancement. You are welcome by the way. Now... Chase the blue dot, if you would please.

Edited for readability. Long, long day.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 23 October 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 23 October 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

I made 2, and as far as i'm concerned they're the only ones with a real discussion. The other threads are narrow minded idiots singing to each other about their fantasies of 10v12 ques and hard-core puretech with clan tech still brokenly op.

This makes an ***** of me if i think there should be Puretech since in either case IS tech will become obsolete (especially if Clan tech is not nerfed though they already said it will) and want 10vs12? The latter should be in the game anyway, if not for balance purposes, to respect the Clans military organization. I'd be disappointed if Clan factions will be organized in lances..

p.s. with 2 'Mechs less players might get a few more FPS

Pariah Devalis, on 23 October 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

A. Take a medium laser, for an example: It currently deals 5 damage over a period of, what, .75 seconds was it? So for that duration, you need to hold the beam perfectly onto a single point to inflict the full 5 damage to the spot you wish to hit. Against an opponent that is actively attempting not to be shot, it is more than likely you will smear the beam across multiple segments. What if C-ERMLas put out the same damage but with half the beam duration? What if C-Pulse lasers were dealt in two pulses instead of three? .

I might be wrong, but would not this make Clan weapons better instead of worse? I assume if you have less beam duration is easier to inflict full damage, especially true for pulse lasers.

Your idea is not bad, but Clan weapons should have a longer beam duration so it will be harder to deal the full damage.

Edited by CyclonerM, 24 October 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[pbiggz]

In the case of pulse lasers, which the clans further perfected and were supposed to be easier to aim, a shorter burn time would make sense. But, it would have to come at the cost of either longer recycle time or much higher heat.

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 24 October 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

In the case of pulse lasers, which the clans further perfected and were supposed to be easier to aim, a shorter burn time would make sense. But, it would have to come at the cost of either longer recycle time or much higher heat.

I would say longer recycle time, an eventually adjusted Ghost Heat might or may raise the heat produced.

Edited by CyclonerM, 24 October 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

CyclonerM, on 24 October 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

This makes an ***** of me if i think there should be Puretech since in either case IS tech will become obsolete (especially if Clan tech is not nerfed though they already said it will) and want 10vs12? The latter should be in the game anyway, if not for balance purposes, to respect the Clans military organization. I'd be disappointed if Clan factions will be organized in lances..

p.s. with 2 'Mechs less players might get a few more FPS



I might be wrong, but would not this make Clan weapons better instead of worse? I assume if you have less beam duration is easier to inflict full damage, especially true for pulse lasers.

Your idea is not bad, but Clan weapons should have a longer beam duration so it will be harder to deal the full damage.

If it was doing table top clan damage, yes. I am not suggesting that. I am saying if a medium laser does 5, a clan ERMLas does 5 as well, but has half the beam duration. It makes precision more important, and makes it easier to put the full duration of a beam on target if you can hit. It does not, however, deal more damage than the IS counterpart in this method. That the weapons are extended range varieties automatically brings along the extra heat associated with them, as well. Given no option for a cooler running non-ER laser, the heat penalty can be its own balance for the extra range while the shorter beam duration is a penalty that would impact those who are either sloppy or inaccurate with lasers.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 October 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 October 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

If it was doing table top clan damage, yes. I am not suggesting that. I am saying if a medium laser does 5, a clan ERMLas does 5 as well, but has half the beam duration. It makes precision more important, and makes it easier to put the full duration of a beam on target if you can hit. It does not, however, deal more damage than the IS counterpart in this method. That the weapons are extended range varieties automatically brings along the extra heat associated with them, as well. Given no option for a cooler running non-ER laser, the heat penalty can be its own balance for the extra range while the shorter beam duration is a penalty that would impact those who are either sloppy or inaccurate with lasers.

Understood, well bargained and done. You are on the right way to convince me
If you see it in this way this would make Clan weapons harder to use. Seems fine!

Edited by CyclonerM, 24 October 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Oh, fantastic then. Now I will not need to bring up the shorter beam duration vs Spider argument.....

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 October 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Oh, fantastic then. Now I will not need to bring up the shorter beam duration vs Locust argument.....

Updated

[flounder2760]

so what im getting from this thread is bla bla bla nerf clan weapons so they are not obviously superior and therefore worth the enormous prices they cost.

if clan weapons arent anything but alternate variants of the same {Scrap} we have for innersphere

why the heck will i pay extra currency or what have you to buy clan mechs and weapons if all the IS {Noble MechWarriors} nerf them into uselessness so they can have a percieved advantage in some form or fashion over their clan counterparts. a timberwolf costs 24mill c-bills according to sarna and seeing as we would have to buy 3 to master it out thats 72 million cbills in chassis alone....

thats not even considering if there is an exchange rate function to be implemented for converting cbills to what the clan side of this game will use for currency( honor?) if at all.

i say this about conversion because, if we dont have it, how are IS pilots gonna fill their shiny atlasi with clan er medium lasers and uac/20s to deal with the clan threat i believe many IS mechs grabbed as much clan tech as they could from salvaging destroyed clan mechs to offset the tech advantage. IIC variants anyone?

so in summary i say if you guys do what your wanting todo to clan weapons and not make them anything but a peculiar version of IS weaponry instead of the obviously superior weapon they are supposed to be you also have to decrease the prices for said clan weaponry. and if you do that your also by definition gonna make the clan mechs cheaper and easier to get ahold of as-well.

and then i say what is the point of calling them clan anymore?

because after all the nerfs( *balance* ) you guys would like to make IS comparable to clan

you would still have 2 stars vs 3 lances in MM so they are in an even harder position.

most of balance issues can be solved by fixing MM to throw lighter chassis of clan mechs versus heavier drops of IS. leave weapons the way they are would make for more interesting gameplay

because like one of my templar brothers has always said to me.

"where is the honor in crushing IS forces with 10 daishis when we could give them a proper fight with lighter frames and gain more honor."

Edited by flounder2760, 24 October 2013 - 06:19 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I see a wall of rant. I will attempt to address what I assume is the nucleus:

None of us, not you, me, or possibly even the devs at this particular point, know how exchange rate system will work. We do know that Clan warriors do not deal with money in the traditional sense. If you are a Clanner in community warfare, perhaps you get the mech at an equivalent price point similar to what an IS pilot would get an IS mech. However, given how ludicrously rare it was for a house or merc unit to have intact, let alone functional, clan mechs or salvage it would make sense for them to have to pay through the nose for it.

Does that answer your concern?

[flounder2760]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 October 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

I see a wall of rant. I will attempt to address what I assume is the nucleus:

None of us, not you, me, or possibly even the devs at this particular point, know how exchange rate system will work. We do know that Clan warriors do not deal with money in the traditional sense. If you are a Clanner in community warfare, perhaps you get the mech at an equivalent price point similar to what an IS pilot would get an IS mech. However, given how ludicrously rare it was for a house or merc unit to have intact, let alone functional, clan mechs or salvage it would make sense for them to have to pay through the nose for it.

Does that answer your concern?

no cuz why pay through the nose for it if it isnt any better by the time you buy it then anything you already have.

i certainly wont pay 72 million in timberwolf chassis if they are to heaveis what the commando is to lights if you catch my drift.
If it was just a little more difficulty and a rewarding play experience i would still buy it even if ti wasnt the *best*

but what im mainly saying is we dont need to nerf hammer clans as much as people are supposing on these threads. we could fix it by implementing a smarter MM in regards to if Clans use honor as a currency tougher fights get you more honor so throwing lighter chassis at heavier IS chasis would be honorable because of the tech advantage.

if you guys nerf the weapons to the point that the clan mechs are just fancier looking IS mechs i will not pay the ludicrous prices for said *advanced mechs & weaponry* when i could just buy any 6 assaults from innersphere that do an equivalent job.

Edited by flounder2760, 24 October 2013 - 06:30 AM.

[pbiggz]

I'm saddened that I have to explain this, but it's generally agreed that clan tech should not cost much more then IS tech. And no matter how much you cry about it, nothing justifies leaving clan tech as is. It wont work, that's all there is too it. You run the risk of COMPLETELY INVALIDATING AN ENTIRE TECH BASE BECAUSE YOU WANT AN EASY WIN BUTTON.