209 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Odanan, on 26 October 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

If you put a warship against an aerospace fighter, the warship will be OP. Should you nerf the warship? Something says me you was playing the game the wrong way...

I never played BT, but i heard some strange rumors.. They said that Clan used to have very strict rules of engagements which put them at a disadvantage against disonhorable Inner Sphere units

[pbiggz]

Odanan, on 26 October 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

If you put a warship against an aerospace fighter, the warship will be OP. Should you nerf the warship? Something says me you was playing the game the wrong way...

That is the single shittiest justification of op clan tech i have ever heard. Clan tech is not a war ship, and IS tech is not an aero fighter. Thats like saying a timberwolf (75 tonnes) is a warship and an ORION (ALSO 75 TONNES) is an aero fighter. You can't actually justify leaving clan tech as overpowered as it is. JORDAN WEISMAN admitted himself that given the chance to do it over he would have made sure the clans were not the near-invincible boogeymen they are now.

[CMetz]

^{I think one thing is being overlooked here. It might be a way to at least partially balance things. All drops would have to be IS vs IS, Clan vs IS, or Clan vs Clan. There couldn't be any intermingling of forces. Clans operate in Stars, not Lances. The default could be for 2 Stars of Clan mechs to face a company of IS mechs. This would make the battle 12 on 10. That would create a decent amount of parity, I believe. Also, due to Clan honor and battlefield tactics it could be set up so that Clans cannot spot for each other. This is in direct violation of the Clan philosophy of one on one combat. Any player choosing to use Clan tech should have to abide by their rules of warfare.}

Edited by CMetz, 26 October 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[CyclonerM]

CMetz, on 26 October 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

^{I think one thing is being overlooked here. It might be a way to at least partially balance things. All drops would have to be IS vs IS, Clan vs IS, or Clan vs Clan. There couldn't be any intermingling of forces. Clans operate in Stars, not Lances. The default could be for 2 Stars of Clan mechs to face a company of IS mechs. This would make the battle 12 on 10. That would create a decent amount of parity, I believe. Also, due to Clan honor and battlefield tactics it could be set up so that Clans cannot spot for each other. This is in direct violation of the Clan philosophy of one on one combat. Any player choosing to use Clan tech should have to abide by their rules of warfare.}

The problem is that by Clan law a commander may declare a Grand Melee, a free for all, if Zellbrigen is violated repeatedly by the enemy force and you have different Clans with different views of Zellbrigen..

[Odanan]

pbiggz, on 26 October 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

That is the single shittiest justification of op clan tech i have ever heard. Clan tech is not a war ship, and IS tech is not an aero fighter. Thats like saying a timberwolf (75 tonnes) is a warship and an ORION (ALSO 75 TONNES) is an aero fighter. You can't actually justify leaving clan tech as overpowered as it is. JORDAN WEISMAN admitted himself that given the chance to do it over he would have made sure the clans were not the near-invincible boogeymen they are now.

But the Timberwolf is superior in everything, you can't deny that. Speed, firepower, range, durability.

It was an extreme example, I admit, but it is still valid.

I don't care what Jordan Weisman said, what is done is done. Clan are what they are. Deal with it.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Odanan, on 26 October 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

If you put a warship against an aerospace fighter, the warship will be OP. Should you nerf the warship? Something says me you was playing the game the wrong way...

No because those are two completely different things operating on most cases with different rules, especially if you bring in capital warships and movement.

Odanan, on 26 October 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

I don't care what Jordan Weisman said, what is done is done. Clan are what they are. Deal with it.

You mean, the guy that CREATED Battletech and the Clans? The one who said himself "Yeah, they were too strong and I woulda made them less OP if I knew how much it would change the game"

G
T
F
O

Edited by mwhighlander, 26 October 2013 - 03:16 PM.

[pbiggz]

Odanan, on 26 October 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

But the Timberwolf is superior in everything, you can't deny that. Speed, firepower, range, durability.

It was an extreme example, I admit, but it is still valid.

I don't care what Jordan Weisman said, what is done is done. Clan are what they are. Deal with it.

Actually PGI already stated they're going to nerf clan tech. The only person who's going to have to deal with it is you. This thread was made not to debate whether or not to nerf it, but to discuss possible ways it might be implemented.

And not caring what jordan weismen said is not my problem, it's yours. If you want to be willfully ignorant, go right ahead, there's plenty of other threads filled with childish whiners who dream of the clan auto-win button.

Also, my personal favourite omnimech is the summoner, and I look forward to defeating dezgra like you in honourable combat when the day comes.

[CMetz]

CyclonerM, on 26 October 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

The problem is that by Clan law a commander may declare a Grand Melee, a free for all, if Zellbrigen is violated repeatedly by the enemy force and you have different Clans with different views of Zellbrigen..

That may need to be tweaked a bit. But ensuring that Clans operate only in maximums of 10 still limits them a bit.

[Rift Hawk]

Pariah Devalis, on 26 October 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I figure insolong as the core gameplay values remain Mechwarrior, you can give the game any coat of paint. We play the game for the unique gameplay Mechwarrior offers, right? Even MW4 stayed mostly true to that. It had a throttle system, independant torso to leg motion, multiple weapons, user designated weapon groups, heat management (though made far easier due to coolant flush but we can blame Microprose for that in MW3 as well), and mech component specific destruction. The pacing felt a little off, more arcady, but the core concepts were absolutely there, and are here in MWO which is why I still consider the game fun and a true MW game, despite whatever oddities PGI seems intent on inventing.

I'm not sure I'd consider this a true mechwarrior game. Sorry to **** on PGI here because they bust their a$$es making this game but there are a lot of problems.

Things that make this not true mechwarrior for me:
1. Hardpoint system. Jenners running around with ERPPCs. Ravens running around with AC/20s. Mechs in general with massive firepower that wasn't even possible at this time period.
2. Mech size is a real problem for me as well as armor. I don't feel like I'm in an assault mech in this game. Nor do I feel like a light is a light. I feel way to safe running up to a heavy or assault and doing circles around them.
3. inexhaustible c-bills. There is no repair or reload of mechs. No total destruction of mechs. Just a never ending supply of c-bills with nothing the lowers your wallet short of buying a mech and weapons.

There are currently a lot of good features about this game and nothing I've listed will stop me from playing. Its just that to me, I don't consider this true mechwarrior/Battletech.

[dal10]

Imperial X, on 26 October 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

I'm not sure I'd consider this a true mechwarrior game. Sorry to **** on PGI here because they bust their a$$es making this game but there are a lot of problems.

Things that make this not true mechwarrior for me:
1. Hardpoint system. Jenners running around with ERPPCs. Ravens running around with AC/20s. Mechs in general with massive firepower that wasn't even possible at this time period.
2. Mech size is a real problem for me as well as armor. I don't feel like I'm in an assault mech in this game. Nor do I feel like a light is a light. I feel way to safe running up to a heavy or assault and doing circles around them.
3. inexhaustible c-bills. There is no repair or reload of mechs. No total destruction of mechs. Just a never ending supply of c-bills with nothing the lowers your wallet short of buying a mech and weapons.

There are currently a lot of good features about this game and nothing I've listed will stop me from playing. Its just that to me, I don't consider this true mechwarrior/Battletech.

ac/20 raven is impossible he says?

ac20 raven

Mass: 35 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 4,241,813 C-Bills
Battle Value: 738

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 175 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 Autocannon/20
1 Small Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 58 points 2.00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 CT, 3 RT, 4 LA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 175 3.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 3 LT
Gyro: Standard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 96 6.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 13
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 8 13
L/R Torso (rear) 3
L/R Arm 6 8
L/R Leg 8 11

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Autocannon/20 RA 7 10 14.00
Small Laser LA 1 1 0.50
@AC/20 (20) RT - 4 4.00
Free Critical Slots: 7

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 3 Points: 7
5 1 0 0 0 1 0 Structure: 2
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, AC 2/2/0

[NocturnalBeast]

Let's wait and see how PGI implements clans. Nothing is going to happen until they are done with UI 2.0 and CW. Also, I would love to see them fix all the bugs and update the graphics on all the old mechs so they show the weapons that are equipped like the newer mechs, before they waste too much time on the clans. I have spent allot of money on the current mechs and would like to use them a while before everyone jumps ship to the clans (you know you will).

Edited by Ed Steele, 26 October 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[dal10]

Ed Steele, on 26 October 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Let's wait and see how PGI implements clans. Nothing is going to happen until they are done with UI 2.0 and CW. Also, I would love to see them fix all the bugs and update the graphics on all the old mechs so they show the weapons that are equipped like the newer mechs, before they waste too much time on the clans. I have spent allot of money on the current mechs and would like to use them a while before everyone jumps ship to the clans (you know you will).

these threads will just keep popping when people realize that their beloved uber mechs won't be 100% uber anymore.

[dak irakoz]

If the clans care so much about honour and personal fights, why are their ranges longer? maybe they should keep all their other buffs and be shorter ranged than IS weapons.

[Rift Hawk]

dal10, on 26 October 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

ac/20 raven is impossible he says?

ac20 raven

Mass: 35 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 4,241,813 C-Bills
Battle Value: 738

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 175 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 Autocannon/20
1 Small Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 58 points 2.00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 CT, 3 RT, 4 LA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 175 3.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 3 LT
Gyro: Standard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 96 6.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 13
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 8 13
L/R Torso (rear) 3
L/R Arm 6 8
L/R Leg 8 11

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Autocannon/20 RA 7 10 14.00
Small Laser LA 1 1 0.50
@AC/20 (20) RT - 4 4.00
Free Critical Slots: 7

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 3 Points: 7
5 1 0 0 0 1 0 Structure: 2
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, AC 2/2/0

Production Year: 3070

Your using an example from 20 years in the future.....

[Pariah Devalis]

Yeah, sorry Odanan, but that Warship to Aerospace fighter comparison is pretty bad. I mean, maybe comparing an F-15 to an F-22 would be a better comparison. Both fighters, separated by generations. One using solid but older tech, the other faster, more maneuverable, more lethal, and harder to detect. That was what the clans were tech wise.

However, given PGI has stated they have no desire to make the clans so overwhelmingly overpowered compared to the IS tech, and that even the very guy who created the Clans in the first place outright stated he wished he could turn back the hands of time to make them less faceroll....

It is not about whether or not the Clan tech will be nerfed, but how in such a way that it is still intrinsically and recognizably "Clan."

There is little doubt that Clan tech is superior, and will be superior. No getting around the weight and critical slot benefits, nor the no-minimum range LRMs, nor the extended range everythings they bring to the table, or the fast speeds their machines move at. Hell, even their engines are better than IS XL (but worse than Stnd, durability wise) - though this would be a pretty easy thing for PGI to retcon. But there are ways to make their weapons superior in specific ways while making them inferior in other ways. Even if the weapons themselves are not absolutely better, their machines already will be better with half slot FF and ES and XL engines.

The question is, "how much more of an advantage do you want to give Clan mechs before you draw the line for balance sake?"

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 26 October 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[dal10]

ac20 raven

Mass: 35 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 3051
Cost: 4,241,813 C-Bills
Battle Value: 738

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 175 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 Autocannon/20
1 Small Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 58 points 2.00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 CT, 3 RT, 4 LA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 175 3.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 3 LT
Gyro: Standard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 96 6.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 13
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 8 13
L/R Torso (rear) 3
L/R Arm 6 8
L/R Leg 8 11

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Autocannon/20 RA 7 10 14.00
Small Laser LA 1 1 0.50
@AC/20 (20) RT - 4 4.00
Free Critical Slots: 7

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 3 Points: 7
5 1 0 0 0 1 0 Structure: 2
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, AC 2/2/0

this is with the production year locked at 3051.

[Pariah Devalis]

Incidentally, while not a weapon per say, the Clan targeting computer does directly impact weapons. The way I see it, there are two ways they can possibly introduce it:

1. Piper in piper lead point centered on the target's center mass, based on the slowest projectile weapon you have equipped

or (and probably much easier to code for)

2. Automatically adjusts weapon convergence to the distance of your currently selected target

[Odanan]

pbiggz, on 26 October 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Actually PGI already stated they're going to nerf clan tech. The only person who's going to have to deal with it is you. This thread was made not to debate whether or not to nerf it, but to discuss possible ways it might be implemented.

And not caring what jordan weismen said is not my problem, it's yours. If you want to be willfully ignorant, go right ahead, there's plenty of other threads filled with childish whiners who dream of the clan auto-win button.

Also, my personal favourite omnimech is the summoner, and I look forward to defeating dezgra like you in honourable combat when the day comes.

I will not going to play with Clan mechs*. In fact, looking for the direction this is going, I'm not going to play MWO once the Clans are implemented.

What I want to say is: if you are going to nerf the Clan weapons to make them par with the IS ones, why implementing the Clans in the first place? Just for the sexy designs?

*You confuse me with those god mode kiddos. No, I'm more like a good old stock IS level 1 mech.

PS: And I'm not the only one that will have to deal with it, I guarantee you.

[Odanan]

Ah, and BTW, honor is an empty word when used by an armed guy.

I don't fight for honor, I fight for winning. Dishonor is to not fulfill my contract.

Pariah Devalis, on 26 October 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

The question is, "how much more of an advantage do you want to give Clan mechs before you draw the line for balance sake?"

If you are making them better, make them properly.

[dal10]

i agree.