209 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Strum Wealh, on 27 October 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Bryan Ekman made that set of statements some time ago regarding Clan technology and its implementation in MWO in the first of the three parts of the interview by NGNG, from (approximately) the 36:30 mark to (approximately) the 38:20 mark.

Quote

I'm going to say this right now, so that everybody can manage their expectations: We're not going to make the same mistake that was made for the last 30 years when it comes to introducing Clan technology into a BattleTech or MechWarrior project. IT WAS A MISTAKE - how powerful they were when they were first introduced - and it's something that I remember talking with [Jordan Weisman] about and him saying, "Wow... if I could take it back, I probably would; I'd probably change how they work, because it immediately invalidated an entire line of products and 'Mechs and content".

So, our approach to introducing Clan tech - which includes Double Heat Sinks and lasers and how equipment fits onto 'Mechs and OmniMechs - is we're going to look at it from the context of our game and inspired by what the intent was for Clan tech.

"Here is a superior force, coming back, that's going to lay waste to the Inner Sphere." But, we want to make sure those Inner Sphere players are able to compete, still. But the way the story was written, "it was through the valor of the Inner Sphere and the unification of the Inner Sphere that they were able to defeat the Clans, and overcome that superior tech."

We can't guarantee that our playerbase is going to be able to do that. In fact, it'll probably be the opposite - everybody is going to flock to the best, most efficient piece of content, and therefore invalidate all the other content - and we don't want that to happen. We want to be able to recreate what was described in that lore, but it's going to require us to change the mechanics and the exact BT... let's say, the numbers, to make sure that the players can actually try to achieve what happened in that canon.

- Bryan Ekman on Clan tech in MWO, from NGNG #88 (recorded Sept. 04, 2013)

As it happens, Ekman's statements also echo those made by Randall Bills in the second Dev interview.

Quote

MWO: Is there any part of MechWarrior you’d love to just take straight out of canon?

RB: I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.

Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.

If what Ekman is talking about is a more-but-not-completely "Billsian" approach for the MWO implementation of the Clans... that could prove to be interesting.

On the other hand, much of this information is now several weeks old, and PGI's stance could have changed (perhaps even substantially so) since then.

The TL;DR?

Clan weapons WILL be nerfed by comparison to the tabletop. Do not like it? Well, whether or not you do or do not want the Clan tech to be what it was in the table top, that is just too bad. Plugging your ears and pretending things will not be significantly altered is not a productive way to discuss things. Proclaiming that the weapons must stay the same is an exercise in futility, and opens a nasty rabbit hole of imbalance. Brainstorming and theorizing ways that the devs may go about it, while not necessarily productive, is certainly an entertaining mental exercise.

The technology of the Clans, as we know it, is dead, and it is high time people get their minds wrapped firmly around this fact. Furthermore, if you have any respect for the longevity of the game itself, the asinine attachment to the clearly overpowered capabilities of old Clan tech needs to be discarded. At the risk of spewing hyperbole, what good is there if we can use TT value clan tech if the game is dead? None whatsoever.

Do I come across as a skosh harsh in this response? Probably, but c'mon! The writing is on the wall. Flailing against the inevitability is just pathetic to watch.

However, if, IF PGI was able to release the Clans in a recognizable state that is also balanced I would be pleasantly surprised. Good luck with that.

Also, thank you Sturm for the quote I yoinked from that other thread. You just summed up the key references nice and handedly.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 27 October 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I'd be supremely happy with the Mechs themselves, especially if they gave the ClanTech simply a different flavor but kept it essentially balanced.

[Vargralor]

Corvald Tyrska, on 27 October 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Actually the simplest way to balance Clan Tech may be to simply leave it as it is in TT but have it permanently destroyed if lost to simulate the difficulty of re-supply. Lose an arm and two CER LLAS, then they're gone permanently. Timber Wolf gets cored, gone permanently. Force players to re-buy their clan tech from scratch if they lose it. Many will never risk it in battle. Those that do likely will actually be the best players who will WTFPWN until they are brought down through attrition, sortof like real clan warriors in the invasion.

dal10, on 27 October 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

you thought the ecm apocalypse, the festival of artemis, the 3rd person of doom, and coolant flush armageddon forum rage levels were bad? this would probably melt the internet out of pure rage.

I'm sure that many people would whine and leave but to be honest I say good riddance to them. It would mean that the game had consequences for our actions. There is actually a thriving market for this sort of game, EVE has over half a million subscribers. I had originally hoped that this model would apply to all mechs for the game. Or at worst we would have our mechs returned stock for the variant but with all customizations lost. But hey, if it was up to me we would all be locked into stock variants with no customization at all .

Regardless, it is certainly a way to maintain both the OPness and the balance at the same time.

[Lagster]

Zelator, on 24 October 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Many people would at this point think it would imbalance the game, but my solution would simply be to tweak the matchmaker system so that any mech with clan weapons would take up more space when calculating the team/enemy team tonnage ratio.

So... the side with more clantech also gets more clan-laser-equipped jenners/spiders. not such a good idea given the hitbox and HSR issues.

To add on: personally, i have no issue with clan tech being "endgame" tech that is basically just plain superior but costs a boatload of cbills to buy.

balance shouldnt be an issue since clantech-equipped players will find themselves in an elo bracket where everyone else is also using clantech, or they suck so bad that even with clantech they're not anymore effective than a skilled IS-tech player.

assuming elo works as intended, all players should always be facing only players that are "balanced" in terms of combat effectiveness. a souped up mech with a 'tard for a pilot isn't going to be killing anything anytime soon.

Edited by Lagster, 28 October 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[TibsVT]

KelesK, on 18 June 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

The thing you fail to realise short of those only saving you one and two critical slots respectively is that Omni's, unlike regular Mechs don't rely on tonnage and critical space. They rely on Pod space.

The Mad Dog C variant is the best example of this, it trades 26 tonnes of LRM's and lasers (Prime) for a mere 12 tonnes of two Gauss rifles. The variant effectively removes the arm pods and the shoulder pods. I personally wouldn't do that but others would. Effectively you're wasting, after ammo (4 tonnes) is taken into account, 12 tonnes of your pod space. Bear in mind, neither of these setups have heatsinks placed in pod space.

You can't just keep shoving stuff on an Omni and think it's going to work. It doesn't. It has X tonnes of allocated pod space. Pod space which you put your weapons in. Now while I have no idea exactly how heavy a clan 300 XL is for this example but as the Mad Dog is a 60 tonne Omni, if you get rid of it's pod space you're only left with 32 tonnes of free space in which you need to fit an XL engine, heat sinks and armour. That's not a lot of room to play with when you start taking critical space into account either.

People need to learn that Omni's aren't BattleMechs, you can't just duct tape equipment on them like a battlemech and expect it to work, it doesn't work that way.

The Timber Wolf, the one Omnis that everyone is so afraid someone will end up 'taping' Clan ER PPCs to only has 27.5 tonnes of pod space. Now while I have no idea how pod space will effectively work, if you notice the larger weapons, PPCs, Gauss Rifles, generally take up whole pods which can usually be split between the regular lasers (Small, Medium, Large), and as I showed above, depending on the Omni, can require the entire disassembly of other pods to fit. Even the Assaults can only manage two ER PPC's per arm (not to say the Dire Wolf probably couldn't fit a third in both but the sacrifice would be substancial).

Basically the heavier the weapons you fill those pods with, the bigger your disadvantage especially depending on the Omni you actually pick as all of them vary depending on pod allowances. You pick heavy weapons, you risk not only overheating but ending up with less fire power then someone who split their weapons into smaller, more heat efficient groups much alike those ******** PPC Stalkers you see that manage to cook themselves on the ice maps.

We all get a little embarrassed when we see them. Now imagine you did it in a Clan Omni... People just seem to overlook the most basic of ideas when they point out their 'inbalance' arguement. If you are complaining about Clan tech being too overpowered, then you are clearly not here for any of the right reasons. We chose to play the Clans because we will be at a disadvantage in both numbers and, technically, technology. Sure, it's lighter, takes up less space, does more damage even. But what we sacrifice for those benefits more then makes up for what we gain. We all know the first person who jumps in a Clan Mech thinking he is some kind of diety is going to walk into an Atlas, cook the damn thing and end up making us all look like idiots.

Stepping away from the Mechs themselves I did notice a rather exensive post above about being hurt for not following the Clan's individualistic mannerisms much alike we are hurt for friendly kills at present. This could also be added on top of the Omni mech's already extensive list of fallbacks.

Edited by KelesK, 28 October 2013 - 03:14 AM.

[R E A V E R]

How about balancing this way. Through repair and re-arm. IS mechs are free due to the availability of parts sourced through your affiliated house. If you run a clan mech you must pay the repair and re-arm costs for it due to the fact that clan tech is rare by comparison and cannot be sourced through your house but only by the black market.

This means a person who likes clan stuff will still need a stable of IS tech to grind money to replace parts and munitions on the clan machine. Yes the clan machine may have overwhelming firepower etc.... but with this idea, the player must choose when and the importance of the battle to run it due to the cost of its deployment.

[Pariah Devalis]

The thought crossed my mind, Hammur. Except last time we had RnR, it was a nightmare and was exploited constantly. That, and you are essentially trying to balance imbalanced gameplay with an out of game mechanic, which does nothing to address the issues during the actual match. Makes me think RnR may not be the answer.

[PoLaR]

I realize there are a lot of hardcore people who want everything to follow TT to a T. But I would rather PGI completely change all of the stats If It means keeping the game somewhat balanced.

Some come for fun, some come to win. I like to do both :]

[Nehkrosis]

So....what happens if PGI implement Clan Mechs as basically skins, and Nerfs the Tech down to IS numbers?

[pbiggz]

Nehkrosis, on 28 October 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

So....what happens if PGI implement Clan Mechs as basically skins, and Nerfs the Tech down to IS numbers?

We still have the mechs, interesting factions, diversified weapons, a TON of new content and more stuff to fight over when CW hits. Nothing bad about that. I doubt clan tech will be exactly the same as IS tech though. It has to be different, not better in every way.

Edited by pbiggz, 28 October 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 October 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Also, thank you Sturm for the quote I yoinked from that other thread. You just summed up the key references nice and handedly.

You're welcome.

Nehkrosis, on 28 October 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

So....what happens if PGI implement Clan Mechs as basically skins, and Nerfs the Tech down to IS numbers?

Well, we know that the Clan weapons & equipment will almost-certainly retain their original weights and volumes (e.g. crit requirements), so that the canonical variants/configurations can still be created and used.

Everything else, however, is potentially up in the air (especially in light of Pariah's quotation of my post from another thread)...

[Joseph Mallan]

Odanan, on 26 October 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

What about keeping the Clan weapons exactly as they are?

Clan weapons are OP - that's what make them different of the IS weapons. They are technologically more advanced! If you are going to "balance" them with the IS weapons, why have the trouble to add Clan weapons in the first place?

Nerfing Clan weapons is heresy! Is unnatural! Is offensive! Is abominable!

You don't need to touch the Clan technology. Add it as it is. So why should someone play as IS?
- Have you heard about asymmetrical warfare?

This! I do not want my boogiemen declawed!

[Nehkrosis]

no one does! i just dont want to see droves leave this game if PGI decides to go...nah **** Omni-slots.

[Pariah Devalis]

Nobody wants them declawed but nobody wants to totally bork the game's balance. Even in Table Top the Clans screwed things over severely, and Clan players got a bad rep just because many swapped to stroke their inner munchkins. I said it before, and I will say it again: The game's balance is more important than sticking to a two decade old mistake. Just because it has been the way it has is not anywhere near a good enough reason to maintain it.

Every game we had, people went and took Clan tech whenever possible.

MW2? Clan Tech or Mechs. MW3? Clan weapons on both Clan and IS mechs. MW4? Outside of stupid things like the Bombast or RACs, nobody outside of puretech leagues EVER willingly ran with IS tech on their mechs, and would make IS mechs filled with more Clan tech than IS. Time and again, it was shown people by and large will choose to find ways to take the "better" equipment. I cannot entirely blame them since that is the nature of power creep; creep yourself or die.

That is a problem. Furthermore, the expectation that this problem be continued is an even bigger, more systemic one.

The focus should be (and from what I can tell from the devs is) making Clan tech different, but not outright superior in every conceivable way. Even if the Clan weapons were using flat out IS stats, the Clan tech is already better, since it must be lighter and must be smaller in order to fit cannon mechs.

How much more of an advantage do you want, exactly? I asked that before. Nobody answered.

[Nehkrosis]

Do you think that they (PGI) could just go the route of making us HAVE to play clan-like and leave the tech fairly untouched?

[pbiggz]

Nehkrosis, on 28 October 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Do you think that they (PGI) could just go the route of making us HAVE to play clan-like and leave the tech fairly untouched?

impossible. Too many variables and players wont like being forced into zellbrigen

[dal10]

i am just going to say this again. the only way to balance clan tech without nerfing it is to not add it in the first place. there are no ifs ands or buts about it.

[Nehkrosis]

If PGI do that you know its GG for them right?
Im not trying to be "that guy", but really, at this stage they may aswell close up shop if they decide they cant be bothered figuring out a way to keep everyone happy in regards to Clans.

Forcing peeps into zell is not a good idea.
just make it so if you DONT want to zell, you get penalized.
or, have you Star Commander disable Zell for the match, you get a negative buff to your honor accumulation. you still accrue some, just not as much.

i dunno.

i fear for the future.
.

[Joseph Mallan]

Well if Clanners are going to RP their faction they should play their faction. My Mechs are either S or D variants. Why? Beause those are the ones available to me according to manufacturing. So if I were to play a Clanner I would also play him according to the Clan I was in.

[Strum Wealh]

Nehkrosis, on 28 October 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Do you think that they (PGI) could just go the route of making us HAVE to play clan-like and leave the tech fairly untouched?

pbiggz, on 28 October 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

impossible. Too many variables and players wont like being forced into zellbrigen

While it would be impossible to enforce all of zell, the fact that MWO can distinguish and track damage done, who killed whom, Narc/TAG Spotting Assists, Kill Assists, and Savior Kills means that at least some elements of zell could be hard-wired into the XP and rewards systems.
In fact, I wrote out an outline on the subject some time ago...

Quote

"Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenets of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.
After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen."
- summarizing statement from Sarna.net, supported by the Clan Honor Interpretation Table on page 274 of Total Warfare

Of the original invading Clans...

• the Ghost Bears start as very strictly adhering to zell, but adopt a very relaxed stance post-Tukayyid
  
• the Jade Falcons start as very strictly adhering to zell, but somewhat relax their stance post-Tukayyid
  
• the Smoke Jaguars are not listed on the table, though canonical events would seem to imply that they start with and maintain a very strict adherence to zell up to (and through) the point of their Annihilation at the hands of the second Star League
  
• the Wolves (the main part, as opposed to the Wolves-in-Exile) start with a very relaxed adherence to zell, and adopt a more strict (but not "very strict") stance post-Tukayyid

Of the second-wave Clans...

• the Nova Cats start with a somewhat relaxed adherence to zell, and maintain their stance post-Tukayyid
  
• the Steel Vipers start as very strictly adhering to zell, and maintain their stance post-Tukayyid

That being said, several of the basic tenants themselves would/should be relatively easy to implement, from a "programming planning" perspective:


1.) "Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time."
Each opponent that has not previously been fired upon or otherwise damaged by any Clan player, that a Clan player then fires upon and does damage to, is considered to be challenged by that Clan player.
Each challenged opponent is marked or outlined as such on each Clan player's HUD, indicating that that opponent is "taken", and that other Clan players should seek other targets.
Likewise, the first opposing unit to fire upon and damage a given Clan player is considered to be issuing a challenge to that Clan player, and the opposing unit in question is marked as "taken" on the HUDs of the other Clan players.
A Clan player's "unmarking" an opposing unit after applying damage to it results in a penalty levied against their match score at the end of the match for each infraction.

2.) "A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected."
A Clan player challenged by an IS unit, that has not yet done any damage to the IS unit in question, would be able to "unmark" said IS unit, thus rejecting the challenge and leaving the opponent in question free to be subsequently challenged/marked by an allied unit.
A Clan player's "unmarking" an opposing unit after applying damage to it results in a penalty levied against their match score at the end of the match for each infraction.

3.) "A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available."
A Clan player challenged by a unit of another weight class (Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault), that has not yet done any damage to the unit in question, would be able to "unmark" said unit, thus rejecting the challenge and leaving the opponent in question free to be subsequently challenged/marked by an allied unit.
A Clan player's "unmarking" an opposing unit after applying damage to it results in a penalty levied against their match score at the end of the match for each infraction.

4.) "No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side."
Any Clan player that uses an AOE weapon receives a penalty levied against their match score at the end of the match for each infraction.

5.) "Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited."
As the server cannot determine intent, this tenent would be ignored.

6.) "Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden."
Any Clan player that uses any system that directly promotes multiple units coordinated attacks on a single target by multiple units (such as TAG and C3) receives a penalty levied against their match score at the end of the match for each infraction.

7.) "Moving out of weapon range is prohibited."
As the server cannot determine intent (the difference between "moving away to maintain a specific range" and "moving away to move out of range"), this tenent would be ignored.

8.) "Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited."
As the server cannot determine intent (does the player believe that firing a particular weapon at a particular time is "possible" (e.g. prudent, advisiable)), this tenent would be ignored.

"A strict interpretation means that the Clan’s warriors generally follow zellbrigen against almost all opponents (except those considered extremely dishonorable, such as bandits and pirates, or against a long-hated enemy). An opportunistic interpretation means that the warriors follow zellbrigen unless mitigating circumstances dictate otherwise (they are outnumbered/outgunned, they think they can get away with it, and so on). Clans following a liberal interpretation use zellbrigen only against other Clans, and then only if they have the advantage."
(Total Warfare, pg. 274)

Each Clan's "strict/opportunistic/liberal" adherence rating (from the Clan Honor Interpretation Table) would then be used to determine the degree of the penalty levied against each player for each infraction, as determined by the player's Clan affiliation; a player affiliated with a Clan with a "strict" adherence rating would recieve a greater penalty for a given infraction than would a player affiliated with a Clan with an "opportunistic" adherence rating, who would in turn recieve a greater penalty for the same infraction than a player affiliated with a Clan with a "liberal" adherence rating.

Such a system (or one similar to it) being hard-wired into MWO's rewards system would both encourage Clan-affiliated players to "fight like Clanners" (and thus enforce a contrast to the fighting style(s) of the IS) and serve to highlight and encourage playstyles corresponding to each Clan's particular identity and outlook - all of which would/should provide more interesting gameplay in general, on both sides.

Though, to answer Nehkrosis' original question: given that PGI recognizes (or, at least, believes) that "everybody is going to flock to the best, most efficient piece of content, and therefore invalidate all the other content" & that restricting Clan-oriented players' progression/rewards via zell does little/nothing to prevent IS-oriented players from executing the same behaviors and still invalidating the IS tech content, PGI arguably has little choice but to change Clan tech itself, with hard-wired Zell & Honor Levels (they are related, but not the same thing!) being at best a secondary element.