209 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Basically, in short: Expect the worst from players. Build from there.

[Rift Hawk]

Pariah Devalis, on 28 October 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Nobody wants them declawed but nobody wants to totally bork the game's balance. Even in Table Top the Clans screwed things over severely, and Clan players got a bad rep just because many swapped to stroke their inner munchkins. I said it before, and I will say it again: The game's balance is more important than sticking to a two decade old mistake. Just because it has been the way it has is not anywhere near a good enough reason to maintain it.

Every game we had, people went and took Clan tech whenever possible.

MW2? Clan Tech or Mechs. MW3? Clan weapons on both Clan and IS mechs. MW4? Outside of stupid things like the Bombast or RACs, nobody outside of puretech leagues EVER willingly ran with IS tech on their mechs, and would make IS mechs filled with more Clan tech than IS. Time and again, it was shown people by and large will choose to find ways to take the "better" equipment. I cannot entirely blame them since that is the nature of power creep; creep yourself or die.

That is a problem. Furthermore, the expectation that this problem be continued is an even bigger, more systemic one.

The focus should be (and from what I can tell from the devs is) making Clan tech different, but not outright superior in every conceivable way. Even if the Clan weapons were using flat out IS stats, the Clan tech is already better, since it must be lighter and must be smaller in order to fit cannon mechs.

How much more of an advantage do you want, exactly? I asked that before. Nobody answered.

What f*cking balance ?

[pbiggz]

Imperial X, on 31 October 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

What f*cking balance ?

I don't know what you're trying to do, but stomping your feet and cursing won't keep your precious clan tech un-nerfed.



This is coming whether you like it or not.

[Pariah Devalis]

Imperial X, on 31 October 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

What f*cking balance ?

That is not a response. That is unfocused sarcasm being played off as a response.

But to cater to your snide remark:

We are in a state in which weapons are at their most balanced state yet. I say this having played the game since closed beta. LRMs are neither overpowered or underpowered, but somewhere in between. Autocannons are dangerous, but no more so than gauss or PPC when the hit detection works - hit detection failure is not a game balance issue, but a bigger overriding issue that effects everything. Let us call it a playability issue, which is serious but not in the scope of this thread's conversation. Lasers, much to the contrast of many forumwarriors out here, are damned fine primary weapon systems - unless I am a freakish god for regularly racking up 700 damage games with a quad ERLLas Flame setup, and I somehow doubt that. Ghost heat is NOT a tremendous burden outside of PPC.

The only sticking points left in our current weapon balance are pulse lasers and SRMs/SSRMs. EDIT: OH, and lolflamers. Seriously, flamers? Bwuahahaha.....

As this is a balance discussion about clan WEAPONS and not clan MECHS, keep your irritation at PGI within the scope of the conversation and keep your emotions out of it as much as you can regardless. Emotions produce unreliable input for problem solving.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 31 October 2013 - 04:41 AM.

[Rift Hawk]

pbiggz, on 31 October 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

I don't know what you're trying to do, but stomping your feet and cursing won't keep your precious clan tech un-nerfed.



This is coming whether you like it or not.

Pariah Devalis, on 31 October 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

That is not a response. That is unfocused sarcasm being played off as a response.

But to cater to your snide remark:

We are in a state in which weapons are at their most balanced state yet. I say this having played the game since closed beta. LRMs are neither overpowered or underpowered, but somewhere in between. Autocannons are dangerous, but no more so than gauss or PPC when the hit detection works - hit detection failure is not a game balance issue, but a bigger overriding issue that effects everything. Let us call it a playability issue, which is serious but not in the scope of this thread's conversation. Lasers, much to the contrast of many forumwarriors out here, are damned fine primary weapon systems - unless I am a freakish god for regularly racking up 700 damage games with a quad ERLLas Flame setup, and I somehow doubt that. Ghost heat is NOT a tremendous burden outside of PPC.

The only sticking points left in our current weapon balance are pulse lasers and SRMs/SSRMs. EDIT: OH, and lolflamers. Seriously, flamers? Bwuahahaha.....

As this is a balance discussion about clan WEAPONS and not clan MECHS, keep your irritation at PGI within the scope of the conversation and keep your emotions out of it as much as you can regardless. Emotions produce unreliable input for problem solving.

My unfocused sarcasm as you call it, has a point. You claim that clan tech remaining at its core values will destroy game balance. Yet game balance is far from ok at this point. Sure its better than it used to be but I'd still be very hesitant to call this game balanced.

In this particular case, it has to happen. My biggest issue is that IS weapons are in no way balanced. If they were, we wouldn't need ghost heat. We wouldn't need the horrible mechanic added to the Gauss Rifle. While these mechanics almost eliminated certain problems within the game, such as boating and Gauss, PCC builds, it didn't balance anything. Certain mechs suffer horribly because of these mechanics. Such as the Awesome. 3 PPCs is supposed to be a stock build. One that is a REAL build in lore. Yet because of ghost heat, doesn't even work because it runs too hot. Pulse lasers are useless because they also run too hot and have shorter range.

The easiest way that I can foresee that PGI will attempt to balance clan tech, is with heat. Heat is broken. You can't balance something with a broken mechanic. Also, certain clan mechs are going to suffer horribly under the current ingame conditions. Regardless of how they balance tech. The warhawk for instance. One of its stock builds is 4 ERPPCs. How exactly is that going to work out ? It isn't. That mech is basically doomed. Just like the awesome is doomed into a state where very few people play it.

Please don't confuse being in a better place with balance because its not the same thing.

Edited by Imperial X, 31 October 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Sir, again you confuse mech balance with weapon balance. The ghost heat issue impacting awesome is a well highlighted issue and one that PGI has the means (though perhaps not the drive) to correct via mech quirks. The ERPPC as a weapon is fine except for a smidge more tuning on its heat levels. As a weapon system, however, PPC are fine. As a weapon system gauss ARE fine, effective, and are difficult to use in a brawl AS THEY SHOULD BE.

Just because the game is not balanced in a way you like does not mean the weapons are not balanced. Let me repeat myself:

Just because the weapons are not balanced in a way *you like* does not mean the weapons are not balanced.

Right now, any weapon system save SRM, Flamers, and Pulse lasers are valid choices. Gauss VIABLE. LRM VIABLE. AC2, 5, 10, 20 VIABLE. Ultra 5, VIABLE. Hell, even small lasers are viable in lighter mechs. Not just viable either. Potentially competitive.

[Pariah Devalis]

And, actually, I will add this:

I have absolutely no expectations I can change your mind. All I can do is present arguments, the logic behind it, and let others come to their own conclusions. Trying to convince someone who is deadset on an opposite point of view is a waste of time. A waste of time just like saying clam tech must not be altered from tabletop values. We KNOW it is going to happen. Whether or not you like it is irrelevant. Will people leave the game? God, I hope so if power gaming was their desire from the get go.

[Rift Hawk]

Pariah Devalis, on 31 October 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Sir, again you confuse mech balance with weapon balance. The ghost heat issue impacting awesome is a well highlighted issue and one that PGI has the means (though perhaps not the drive) to correct via mech quirks. The ERPPC as a weapon is fine except for a smidge more tuning on its heat levels. As a weapon system, however, PPC are fine. As a weapon system gauss ARE fine, effective, and are difficult to use in a brawl AS THEY SHOULD BE.

Just because the game is not balanced in a way you like does not mean the weapons are not balanced. Let me repeat myself:

Just because the weapons are not balanced in a way *you like* does not mean the weapons are not balanced.

Right now, any weapon system save SRM, Flamers, and Pulse lasers are valid choices. Gauss VIABLE. LRM VIABLE. AC2, 5, 10, 20 VIABLE. Ultra 5, VIABLE. Hell, even small lasers are viable in lighter mechs. Not just viable either. Potentially competitive.

I'm not confusing anything. As there is direct causation between ghost heat and mech balance. Ghost heat effects weapons and in turn effects mechs.

Just because the weapons are not balanced in a way *I like* does not mean the weapons are not balanced ?

Your right it doesn't mean that. Nor did I ever say it meant that. Its not about what I like.

However, lets cut through it shall we ? Your here because YOU DON'T LIKE the idea of clan weapons remaining as they are. YOU want them balanced. Regardless of what argument you put forth it basically comes down to that. I'm not saying your arguments aren't valid. Your always welcome to you opinion but there is the rub. This whole thread is about individual opinions. Its about what we like or don't like.

So I say to you, just because the weapons are balanced in a way *you like* does not mean the weapons are balanced.

Edited by Imperial X, 31 October 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[Rift Hawk]

Pariah Devalis, on 31 October 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

And, actually, I will add this:

I have absolutely no expectations I can change your mind. All I can do is present arguments, the logic behind it, and let others come to their own conclusions. Trying to convince someone who is deadset on an opposite point of view is a waste of time. A waste of time just like saying clam tech must not be altered from tabletop values. We KNOW it is going to happen. Whether or not you like it is irrelevant. Will people leave the game? God, I hope so if power gaming was their desire from the get go.

Not a single post of mine you have responded to, yesterday or today, Have I once said I was under the assumption that Clan tech wasn't going to be changed from TT. Nor did I once say, that I was looking for some power builds. In previous posts in this thread I stated I would rather see clans not implemented at all. I don't see a point in adding something to a game that has to be nerfed to make it work in the current game. If it has to be nerfed, it probably shouldn't be added at all. Since we aren't sticking to a 1:1 timeline anymore, and PGI is not sticking with lore.....who cares about clans ? They are no longer necessary.

Edited by Imperial X, 31 October 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

If you shown an iota of integrity you would have checked your assumption. I have stated in this thread at least once that I would be overjoyed if it was a possible option to balance the game without messing with clan damage numbers.

Not only is that incredibly unlikely to be managed, it is a moot point. You may not like me but I could not give a damn. You play a game that is shaped by the developer's vision, and the developers already made it crystal clear what their intentions are with clan tech. Instead of offering balance options, you entered this thread kicking and screaming. Instead of considering ways that clans can keep their theme in this new game, you plugged your ears and kept right on kicking and screaming.

You, sir, are not being productive in this thread. If you cannot be, stay out or stay quiet.

Furthermore, ghost heat as weapon balance is only weapon balance in the face of boating. On an individual basis the weapons are balanced and ghost heat plays no factor. On a macro scale, when given to the players to use them on mechs, players boat. They have always boated. This is something the developers do not want because no matter how balanced a system is, it is only balanced within set parameters. You need to fix the variables, and instead of outright denying the option to boat they gave us a heat penalty for doing so. And as ghost heat is a mech quirk modifiable item, it becomes a matter of mech balance, not weapon balance. They want certain mechs capable of certain things, eventually. Which makes sense.

Do I think ghost heat was the best way to do that? Not at all, but I've been around long enough to recognize that at least this game is attempting to fix problems that every other mechwarrior series suffered from - including boating.

[Pariah Devalis]

Seems my argument with you got crossed somewhat with another individual's comments. For that I apologize. However, the statements on balance still stand. Statements I made on ghost heat still stand. If you think the entire point of the clans was the superior tech, ask yourself why, because I am not alone in feeling otherwise.

[Rift Hawk]

I also feel that the superior tech of clans was not a well though out idea. My opinion is that they shouldn't be added. Most people just want them because of that superior tech and when they realize upon release that they aren't getting that, the forums will explode with rage. Its just something that doesn't need to be dealt with. I would rather see more indepth work into what we currently have, ie Pulse lasers becoming a viable weapon. A better mechanic to not necessarily stop boating all together, but to limit it without serious impact in other aspects of the game. I have always been crossing my fingers that one day, double heat sinks will actually be double and not just 1.4 heat sinks. In that respect, ghost heat wouldn't work anymore or be severely compromised.

I'm not sure what parts of your previous post we're directed at me or if that apology was directed at me. Either way, don't assume I don't like you because of a disagreement on the internet. That certainly isn't the case. I don't take anything personal when it comes to video games or the forums for those games but if that apology was to me, thank you. I appreciate it.

Now I have winter tires to put on my car. So I say good day and thank you for the discussion.

[Pariah Devalis]

Aye, the apology was to you. I got you mixed with another poster who refused to break out of the delusion that PGI would insert the clans as the outright broken entity they were in the tabletop.


I actually understand your stance. Work absolutely needs to be done to finish the balance work in the game in certain areas. That said, while there is the stereotypical clanner group who only want the power advantage, there are many, many of us who have been waiting since MW2: 31 Century Combat to get back into our favorite factions. There has been nothing but IS spin off after IS spin off, and, putting the tech aside, it would be almost criminal to outright delete what the individual clans are. By that, I mean the (arguably) meritocratic societies with a drive to better themselves both personally and as a society (the extremes being the evangelical crusaders which were painted as bad guys anyways). The honor system being a function of their environment in the wilderness and need to conserve resources is also an interesting aspect of their society.

Their technology, then, is almost an afterthought to many of us.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Pariah Devalis, on 31 October 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

You play a game that is shaped by the developer's vision, and the developers already made it crystal clear what their intentions are with clan tech.

Scratch out clan tech and you have a counter argument to almost all the 'balance' threads I have seen.
Sadly a lot of people (and I can name at least one whole group of players) don't give a donkey's snot-bubble about any of that and will continue to complain and whine anyways.

Pariah Devalis, on 28 October 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Basically, in short: Expect the worst from players. Build from there.

Edit: Typo of doomdittydoomdoomdoom

Edited by Shar Wolf, 31 October 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Imperial X, on 31 October 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

who cares about clans ? They are no longer necessary.

We do. Maybe you should not have posted this in the Clans subforums

Pariah Devalis, on 31 October 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I actually understand your stance. Work absolutely needs to be done to finish the balance work in the game in certain areas. That said, while there is the stereotypical clanner group who only want the power advantage, there are many, many of us who have been waiting since MW2: 31 Century Combat to get back into our favorite factions. There has been nothing but IS spin off after IS spin off, and, putting the tech aside, it would be almost criminal to outright delete what the individual clans are. By that, I mean the (arguably) meritocratic societies with a drive to better themselves both personally and as a society (the extremes being the evangelical crusaders which were painted as bad guys anyways). The honor system being a function of their environment in the wilderness and need to conserve resources is also an interesting aspect of their society.

Their technology, then, is almost an afterthought to many of us.

Exactly. Clan factions are what i am waiting for in this game. Most of us layed or grew with MW2, so the Clans and their 'Mechs (but not necessary their OP tech) have a special place in our hearts.

[TibsVT]

CyclonerM, on 01 November 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

Exactly. Clan factions are what i am waiting for in this game. Most of us layed or grew with MW2, so the Clans and their 'Mechs (but not necessary their OP tech) have a special place in our hearts.

I'd like to second this statement. How the Clans operate and conduct themselves is also a very important part of all of this I believe. A part we will forever lack if MWO remains IS only. I believe players who opt to go with the Clans should be forced, to the best of PGI's ability, to follow their mandates and codes lest be penalized. Is that fair on everyone? Well no, it's not, but at the same time it's better then having a thousand idiots running around in Clan Mechs because they're "better". The majority of us who play Clans for these reasons do so because we agree with their rules and codes. Or at least enjoy the idea of them.

I know even a handful of Clanners will likely disagree with me but this is just how I feel. I'm sure the PPC boaters didn't agree with the ghost heat changes either but hell, it's at least a start to fixing the problem isn't it?

Then again, this is the Clan forums and we could all just be blowing everything out of the water prematurely, who knows how many IS loyalists will remain after the release, we could all be in for a shock.

[Pariah Devalis]

It is kind of funny, when you think about it. There is the rabid pro TT value Clanner camp, then you have the Clans by whatever means necessary even if just in spirit camp. I want my power vs I just want to exist. Almost parallels the Crusader and Warden factions, no?

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 01 November 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

It is kind of funny, when you think about it. There is the rabid pro TT value Clanner camp, then you have the Clans by whatever means necessary even if just in spirit camp. I want my power vs I just want to exist. Almost parallels the Crusader and Warden factions, no?

And which "camp" do you associate to each of them?
And this cannot work - there are infinite grey scales, you know, not just black and white

[Pariah Devalis]

Gray in my black and white GRIMDARKFUTURE game? Get out of here!

I am Nova Cat. Gray is pretty much tattoo'd onto the side of my face. BRB, flipping a coin. Calling edge!

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 01 November 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

I am Nova Cat. Gray is pretty much tattoo'd onto the side of my face. BRB, flipping a coin. Calling edge!

Mh? I would have thought you may have had a vision