Do pulse lasers have a niche? Yes. But the niche is "new player who hasn't learned how to maintain a regular laser on target for that extra half-beat." I loved MPLs when I was new and driving hit and run lights. But I was awful. I'm only OK now, and I would never, ever equip an MPL now. They are a beginner's crutch and the sooner you're rid of them the better.
Darn shame, too, because the coolness factor is extreme.
S
3
Redpill Me On Pulse Lasers
Started by Pjwned, Oct 23 2013 06:27 AM
103 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:11 AM
Pjwned, on 23 October 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:
I run a Jenner D frequently myself, except I roll with 4 medium lasers, and I've been in plenty of situations where I definitely needed the extra range (compared to a small laser) to do anything worthwhile while still playing somewhat of a hit & run style, not to mention the total damage is higher and the heat is plenty managable with enough double heat sinks.
If the small pulse lasers didn't weigh the same as a medium laser I would try them out, but the low damage and low range for how much it weighs just doesn't seem worth it.
If the small pulse lasers didn't weigh the same as a medium laser I would try them out, but the low damage and low range for how much it weighs just doesn't seem worth it.
Same for me. Ran a jenner D with 4 small pulse lasers a while ago, and the 90m range is what kills small pulse lasers. Compare it with medium lasers, you're only exchanging for slightly more DPS and heat efficiency for 1/3 of the range. Now that's ridiculous. It's simply not worth it to gimp yourself, 90m range means you're borderline humping everyone's face if you wanna deal full damage.
#23
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:13 AM
ShotgunWillie, on 23 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:
IF you're going to be close enough to use them, small pulse lasers are an upgrade to sustained DPS over regular medium lasers. Medium lasers put out more heat and have a slower cycle time than small pulse lasers, so you can fire SPLS faster for less heat, though you have to be MUUUCH closer to use them.
I like the risk and the need to zig zag through the battle zone, it's how I saw myself playing a light anyway outside of a scouting role. Plus it is soo rewarding popping 3 or 4 spl alphas into a medium or even an atlas and have that fatty turn around and me about 300 meters away.
#24
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:29 AM
Technoviking, on 23 October 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:
I dunno, being able to take the snappiest of snapshots is really helpful for quick moving mechs. Being able to dump a full load of damage in between two buildings or hills at 130kph is better than having half of it scrape over the side of the hill.
But in practice, it doesn't work this way.
While the shorter burn time will result in very slightly higher percentage of damage landing on the target, the dramatically reduced range will usually mean that many shots will actually do less damage due to damage drop off.
For instance, imagine shooting a target that is at 250 meters.
Imagine that you are able to hold your laser on target for ONLY the duration of the medium pulse laser.
So, for a standard medium laser, you will do 60% of your damage. So, you'll do 3 damage with that weapon.
With the medium pulse, you will do all of the damage, but it will be reduced due to range. In this case the medium pulse's damage is reduced to 61% by range, or 3,66 damage.
So in this case (not even ideal for the medium laser, as as you get closer to 270m, the medium pulse's advantage will continue to drop further) the shorter burn time of the medium pulse is ENTIRELY negated by its massive range disadvantage.
This is why pulse lasers are, effectively, always a bad choice.
You are paying a large premium in terms of heat and tonnage, and you are getting almost NOTHING for it in return.
Within 180m, the pulse laser's advantages will be slightly higher, but the reality of combat is that you will not always be fighting in perfectly optimal conditions. At some point, you are going to be in a position where you have a shot from outside 180m. While you could simply choose to not fire your pulse laser at that range, if you had a standard medium, you COULD have fired it. And at that point, getting that extra shot off puts the regular laser ahead of the pulse laser to the degree where you're not really going to catch up, especially given the heat penalties on the pulse lasers.
Many people believe that pulse lasers are helping them, but the math clearly illustrates that it is an illusion. They have virtually no utility in real combat. You will always be better off using standard lasers, even if you land less of the shot on target.
#25
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:35 AM
Roland, on 23 October 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:
But in practice, it doesn't work this way.
While the shorter burn time will result in very slightly higher percentage of damage landing on the target, the dramatically reduced range will usually mean that many shots will actually do less damage due to damage drop off.
For instance, imagine shooting a target that is at 250 meters.
Imagine that you are able to hold your laser on target for ONLY the duration of the medium pulse laser.
So, for a standard medium laser, you will do 60% of your damage. So, you'll do 3 damage with that weapon.
With the medium pulse, you will do all of the damage, but it will be reduced due to range. In this case the medium pulse's damage is reduced to 61% by range, or 3,66 damage.
So in this case (not even ideal for the medium laser, as as you get closer to 270m, the medium pulse's advantage will continue to drop further) the shorter burn time of the medium pulse is ENTIRELY negated by its massive range disadvantage.
This is why pulse lasers are, effectively, always a bad choice.
You are paying a large premium in terms of heat and tonnage, and you are getting almost NOTHING for it in return.
Within 180m, the pulse laser's advantages will be slightly higher, but the reality of combat is that you will not always be fighting in perfectly optimal conditions. At some point, you are going to be in a position where you have a shot from outside 180m. While you could simply choose to not fire your pulse laser at that range, if you had a standard medium, you COULD have fired it. And at that point, getting that extra shot off puts the regular laser ahead of the pulse laser to the degree where you're not really going to catch up, especially given the heat penalties on the pulse lasers.
Many people believe that pulse lasers are helping them, but the math clearly illustrates that it is an illusion. They have virtually no utility in real combat. You will always be better off using standard lasers, even if you land less of the shot on target.
While the shorter burn time will result in very slightly higher percentage of damage landing on the target, the dramatically reduced range will usually mean that many shots will actually do less damage due to damage drop off.
For instance, imagine shooting a target that is at 250 meters.
Imagine that you are able to hold your laser on target for ONLY the duration of the medium pulse laser.
So, for a standard medium laser, you will do 60% of your damage. So, you'll do 3 damage with that weapon.
With the medium pulse, you will do all of the damage, but it will be reduced due to range. In this case the medium pulse's damage is reduced to 61% by range, or 3,66 damage.
So in this case (not even ideal for the medium laser, as as you get closer to 270m, the medium pulse's advantage will continue to drop further) the shorter burn time of the medium pulse is ENTIRELY negated by its massive range disadvantage.
This is why pulse lasers are, effectively, always a bad choice.
You are paying a large premium in terms of heat and tonnage, and you are getting almost NOTHING for it in return.
Within 180m, the pulse laser's advantages will be slightly higher, but the reality of combat is that you will not always be fighting in perfectly optimal conditions. At some point, you are going to be in a position where you have a shot from outside 180m. While you could simply choose to not fire your pulse laser at that range, if you had a standard medium, you COULD have fired it. And at that point, getting that extra shot off puts the regular laser ahead of the pulse laser to the degree where you're not really going to catch up, especially given the heat penalties on the pulse lasers.
Many people believe that pulse lasers are helping them, but the math clearly illustrates that it is an illusion. They have virtually no utility in real combat. You will always be better off using standard lasers, even if you land less of the shot on target.
I should have qualified. I guess I totally agree with "useless" because SPL/MPL don't exist in my world. I'm only speaking of LPL. Going under 270m is a do or die situation, not something I would do unless forced, or for a positioning push. 300 though, that's where I like it.
#26
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:38 AM
The LPL suffers from the same issues.
You are better off mounting a standard Large Laser. You will, in most cases, to equivalent (or greater) damage with a standard laser, and it will cost you much less in terms of heat and tonnage.
You are better off mounting a standard Large Laser. You will, in most cases, to equivalent (or greater) damage with a standard laser, and it will cost you much less in terms of heat and tonnage.
#27
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:42 AM
I've been playing for a month or so by now (quite frequently), and would say that pulse lasers are definitely useful. I would sacrifice the extra weight and heat to use them, and I do. The catch is that they are not part of your regular set of weapons.
They work well for faster in your face pitched battles that end in a couple of seconds. This makes them much more useful for lights, though, paradoxically, the weight increase greatly decreases the usefulness for lights. To put it into perspective... you are exposing yourself about 100% longer when you are using regular lasers versus pulse lasers. That's a 100% longer time frame for your enemy to twitch and/or fire back at you. When you are aiming at them, you are not as focused on finding cover/escaping, which makes you more likely to be hit. I could fire the pulse laser and begin to torso twist to protect myself in the same time span.
The beam duration allows you to land maximum damage in a minimum time frame, and that's the main point of it. This is not a brawler weapon. I find two uses for it; 1) equipping them on fast mechs to do focused hit and run attacks, and 2) equipping a few on a slower mech to scare off and/or kill fast mechs.
I can run behind a mech, land an alpha into a weakened back CT, then circle a building while the enemy tries to locate me, and land a killing alpha into that back CT. You're paying extra heat and weight to help land maximum and more concenetrated hits on a single spot. Average human reflex time is like... 150-300 milliseconds? a 1 second duration beam means that the enemy has 700-850 milliseconds to do something before your beam finishes delivering damage. At .6 seconds, that gives the enemy 300-450 milliseconds to do something before your pulse finishes. It cuts the window for a "potential" error in half, and I'd assume that HSR works more favorably in this instance as well. If you ABOSLUTELY need to land that shot on that spot in that moment, pulse will do wonders for you.
Personally, I find that lasers are much more well suited for heavier/slower mechs. I can pack more power for the same weight, or add more heatsinks. A slow mech with armor fighting against other slow/medium speed mechs does not need to worry about getting that absolute hit on that absolute spot in that absolute moment. You are more likely to slug it out, and have the armor capacity to take a bit more time to aim. If you are building a mech to stand and fight or brawl, then you can do better things witih your weight and heat than using pulse lasers. If you are building a mech to hit fast targets, or to do guerilla combat, then pulse lasers will be great. Want a ranged combat mech? Forget anything pulse.
Pulse lasers are great for fast light mechs, but paradoxically work against lights by having significantly higher weight requirements.
They work well for faster in your face pitched battles that end in a couple of seconds. This makes them much more useful for lights, though, paradoxically, the weight increase greatly decreases the usefulness for lights. To put it into perspective... you are exposing yourself about 100% longer when you are using regular lasers versus pulse lasers. That's a 100% longer time frame for your enemy to twitch and/or fire back at you. When you are aiming at them, you are not as focused on finding cover/escaping, which makes you more likely to be hit. I could fire the pulse laser and begin to torso twist to protect myself in the same time span.
The beam duration allows you to land maximum damage in a minimum time frame, and that's the main point of it. This is not a brawler weapon. I find two uses for it; 1) equipping them on fast mechs to do focused hit and run attacks, and 2) equipping a few on a slower mech to scare off and/or kill fast mechs.
I can run behind a mech, land an alpha into a weakened back CT, then circle a building while the enemy tries to locate me, and land a killing alpha into that back CT. You're paying extra heat and weight to help land maximum and more concenetrated hits on a single spot. Average human reflex time is like... 150-300 milliseconds? a 1 second duration beam means that the enemy has 700-850 milliseconds to do something before your beam finishes delivering damage. At .6 seconds, that gives the enemy 300-450 milliseconds to do something before your pulse finishes. It cuts the window for a "potential" error in half, and I'd assume that HSR works more favorably in this instance as well. If you ABOSLUTELY need to land that shot on that spot in that moment, pulse will do wonders for you.
Personally, I find that lasers are much more well suited for heavier/slower mechs. I can pack more power for the same weight, or add more heatsinks. A slow mech with armor fighting against other slow/medium speed mechs does not need to worry about getting that absolute hit on that absolute spot in that absolute moment. You are more likely to slug it out, and have the armor capacity to take a bit more time to aim. If you are building a mech to stand and fight or brawl, then you can do better things witih your weight and heat than using pulse lasers. If you are building a mech to hit fast targets, or to do guerilla combat, then pulse lasers will be great. Want a ranged combat mech? Forget anything pulse.
Pulse lasers are great for fast light mechs, but paradoxically work against lights by having significantly higher weight requirements.
#28
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:44 AM
I do think they need some love, but I have wrecked **** with MPL just fine. They are great weapons for hit and run as they deal their damage quickly which is important when you are moving at really high speeds in hit and run attacks, also even more important when you AND your enemy are moving at such high speeds. They also don't allow your opponent to easily spread your damage with twists and turns.
Anyone saying they are a "crutch for noobs" is talking ****, they are designed for a different use than the ML. They are also much better anti-light weapons than the ML. If they get a little love they will be balanced perfectly fine and they already have their own niche, one of my Jenners runs 4xMPL and I have a 4.38 k/d ratio with it and have topped the damage score in a match on many occasions.
Anyone saying they are a "crutch for noobs" is talking ****, they are designed for a different use than the ML. They are also much better anti-light weapons than the ML. If they get a little love they will be balanced perfectly fine and they already have their own niche, one of my Jenners runs 4xMPL and I have a 4.38 k/d ratio with it and have topped the damage score in a match on many occasions.
Edited by Leesin, 23 October 2013 - 08:45 AM.
#29
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:44 AM
The LPL was doing quite well on my Atlas right up until they bumped the heat up with the normalization pass a while back. The normalization pass pretty much killed it for me. Can't make it work on anything now.
#30
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:46 AM
mike29tw, on 23 October 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:
You seem to think that alpha strike is a secret cheat the buried under the code of the game and only few malicious players have access to it. It's not. It's part of the game and everyone has access to it.
No, that's not it. I think my purist comment below (no idea why I responded to you from the bottom up) is a better explanation. "Alpha Strike" has a certain connotation to it for most people who've played/read/watched anything Battletech/Mechwarrior.
You are technically right though, everybody has the ability to Alpha in this game. But that doesn't mean that it's the way things are supposed to be or that it's the right way. It'd be like loading up a brand new Dragon Ball Z game, only to find everybody constantly using a Spirit Bomb attack over and over. It's just lame, and the game would feel broken.
Thought experiment time:
If the entire playerbase agreed that Alpha's were for emergencies, and balanced load-outs became common practice;
How many balancing issues would be solved??
How many threads complaining about the high heat of "whatever weapon" would vanish?
etc etc.
This game is somewhat messy at the moment, as most people would agree.The devs seem to be guessing when it comes to figuring out the balance of the Mechs and weapons (Hello - Ghost Heat).
Maybe all the issues comes from the fact that people are just Alpha-Striking constantly?
Maybe being a bunch of Alpha-Warriors isn't what's best for MWO?
mike29tw, on 23 October 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:
Here's your problem. the game is not Hockey, it's a game that looks like hockey, except for some reason the rules allow you to use your hands to pick up the puck.
The game is not Hockey, and MWO is not Battletech. PGI said it explicitly that MWO is an interpretation of BT. Deal with it.
The game is not Hockey, and MWO is not Battletech. PGI said it explicitly that MWO is an interpretation of BT. Deal with it.
You might actually be onto something here. Well worded comment.
Suppose I'm just too much of a purist at heart to let go of key fundamentals in the BT Universe being totally borked in MWO.
I wouldn't expect a Hockey-Type-Hand-Game to last very long. Hockey has been around for ages, and although the rules do get tweaked from time to time, the core of the game remains the same. There's probably a reason for that.
Much like I wouldn't expect a MechWarrior game with bizarro rules tossed in to last very long. The game has been around for ages, and it works just fine. There's no reason to randomly change things "just because".
Take a look at the MWO community, it's been falling apart for quite some time now. The game just keeps plugging forward, but many people think it's going the wrong direction.
Perhaps it'd be best in the long run if the Devs took the game back towards the IP a smidge?
mike29tw, on 23 October 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:
I enjoy winning matches. You should reconsider your priority if you don't.
Hmm. Games are meant to be enjoyable and fun, yeah?
I play games to unwind after a hard day's work and to have fun.
My priorities are just fine thanks.
Here's a fun little question for you; If the game suddenly changed, and it was impossible to Alpha-Strike over and over without repercussions. Would you adapt to the new style of play and continue winning (if there's one thing I know about you, it's that you win), or would you want the game changed back to one where you can blast those Alphas all day long?
Just curious.
#31
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:38 AM
Technoviking, on 23 October 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:
I dunno, being able to take the snappiest of snapshots is really helpful for quick moving mechs. Being able to dump a full load of damage in between two buildings or hills at 130kph is better than having half of it scrape over the side of the hill. I have a Cicada and a QWK build for that, as its main build, but the piloting theory is built around "Now you see me now you don't". I wouldn't put them on anything under 90kph, except for a Cataphract I have with 2 Er and 2 LPL. Long long long... HI!
Not all variations of the 'pulse laser machineguns' make snap shots impossible. Those ones could probably best be called 'Laser ACs' as they would act much like ACs do, with light pulse weapons firing quicker for only a bit more heat over time than heavier versions. Each 'pulse' for these would inflict not inconsiderable damage. Basiclaly it would give energy weapons a stong 'DPS' type as opposed to 'alpha' types.
#32
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:14 AM
Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:
[/size]
No, that's not it. I think my purist comment below (no idea why I responded to you from the bottom up) is a better explanation. "Alpha Strike" has a certain connotation to it for most people who've played/read/watched anything Battletech/Mechwarrior.
You are technically right though, everybody has the ability to Alpha in this game. But that doesn't mean that it's the way things are supposed to be or that it's the right way. It'd be like loading up a brand new Dragon Ball Z game, only to find everybody constantly using a Spirit Bomb attack over and over. It's just lame, and the game would feel broken.
No, that's not it. I think my purist comment below (no idea why I responded to you from the bottom up) is a better explanation. "Alpha Strike" has a certain connotation to it for most people who've played/read/watched anything Battletech/Mechwarrior.
You are technically right though, everybody has the ability to Alpha in this game. But that doesn't mean that it's the way things are supposed to be or that it's the right way. It'd be like loading up a brand new Dragon Ball Z game, only to find everybody constantly using a Spirit Bomb attack over and over. It's just lame, and the game would feel broken.
Not having further knowledge about seems to excuse me regarding the broken feeling though. Never dipped much into battletech lore, I play MWO only for the giant stomping robots and the semi-sim gameplay and I'm enjoying it. However I do understand you point of view.
However, if there is a Dragon Ball Z game and it is mod-able, I have a feeling there will be a few server running Spirit Bomb only game mode, so to each is own I guess. I've never been a fan of Dragon Ball Z either so I hope that's the correct analogy...lol.
Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:
Thought experiment time:
If the entire playerbase agreed that Alpha's were for emergencies, and balanced load-outs became common practice;
How many balancing issues would be solved??
How many threads complaining about the high heat of "whatever weapon" would vanish?
etc etc.
This game is somewhat messy at the moment, as most people would agree.The devs seem to be guessing when it comes to figuring out the balance of the Mechs and weapons (Hello - Ghost Heat).
Maybe all the issues comes from the fact that people are just Alpha-Striking constantly?
Maybe being a bunch of Alpha-Warriors isn't what's best for MWO?
If the entire playerbase agreed that Alpha's were for emergencies, and balanced load-outs became common practice;
How many balancing issues would be solved??
How many threads complaining about the high heat of "whatever weapon" would vanish?
etc etc.
This game is somewhat messy at the moment, as most people would agree.The devs seem to be guessing when it comes to figuring out the balance of the Mechs and weapons (Hello - Ghost Heat).
Maybe all the issues comes from the fact that people are just Alpha-Striking constantly?
Maybe being a bunch of Alpha-Warriors isn't what's best for MWO?
Well first off, Alpha Strike is pretty subjective depending on the mech. A raven can alpha strike all day and It would still hardly output any significant amount of damage. In this case, asking him to reserve his alpha strike only for emergency doesn't seem quite fair.
The rampant alpha strike is actually the natural evolution of players finding out the best way to play the game. The heat cap is high enough so there are no severe consequences for alpha-striking. It's simply a symptom of many problems, and to fix it would require a lot more than only asking player to not alpha-strike.
Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:
I wouldn't expect a Hockey-Type-Hand-Game to last very long. Hockey has been around for ages, and although the rules do get tweaked from time to time, the core of the game remains the same. There's probably a reason for that.
Much like I wouldn't expect a MechWarrior game with bizarro rules tossed in to last very long. The game has been around for ages, and it works just fine. There's no reason to randomly change things "just because".
Take a look at the MWO community, it's been falling apart for quite some time now. The game just keeps plugging forward, but many people think it's going the wrong direction.
Perhaps it'd be best in the long run if the Devs took the game back towards the IP a smidge?
Much like I wouldn't expect a MechWarrior game with bizarro rules tossed in to last very long. The game has been around for ages, and it works just fine. There's no reason to randomly change things "just because".
Take a look at the MWO community, it's been falling apart for quite some time now. The game just keeps plugging forward, but many people think it's going the wrong direction.
Perhaps it'd be best in the long run if the Devs took the game back towards the IP a smidge?
Well, Mechwarrior is a game set in real-time environment, where every player pilot a mech. This is very different from table top games and changes must be made in order to make the game work and enjoyable. Even in previous Mechwarrior games, players always want to utilize as many weapons he has as possible. What's really stopping him to take out 2 medium lasers and add some heat sinks, so he can fire the rest of his weapons all day long? As long as mech lab is present, players will always find the best way to achieve his goal, and in an arena shooter, the goal is to dish out as much damage in as little time as possible.
The real problem isn't whether he is "alpha-striking". The real problem is how much damage is acceptable?
Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:
Hmm. Games are meant to be enjoyable and fun, yeah?
I play games to unwind after a hard day's work and to have fun.
My priorities are just fine thanks.
Here's a fun little question for you; If the game suddenly changed, and it was impossible to Alpha-Strike over and over without repercussions. Would you adapt to the new style of play and continue winning (if there's one thing I know about you, it's that you win), or would you want the game changed back to one where you can blast those Alphas all day long?
Just curious.
I play games to unwind after a hard day's work and to have fun.
My priorities are just fine thanks.
Here's a fun little question for you; If the game suddenly changed, and it was impossible to Alpha-Strike over and over without repercussions. Would you adapt to the new style of play and continue winning (if there's one thing I know about you, it's that you win), or would you want the game changed back to one where you can blast those Alphas all day long?
Just curious.
Just to make it clear, I fully support the suggestion to reduce heat capacity and increase heat dissipation, and to make auto cannon into burst fire cannons in order to reduce the over all pin-point damage. I'm not doing it because it's more battletech though, I'm doing it because, that way the game will objectively require more skill and will have more varied and dynamic combat. So, the answer is yes.
I guess we both start off from different point of view, but the over all goal is the same. I know you're a nice fellow though, because you're actually willing to have a civilized discussion, I just don't like people bashing players for playing the way the game rewards them to.
Edited by mike29tw, 23 October 2013 - 10:18 AM.
#33
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:14 AM
Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:
Basically, yeah.
But not just mine, every other person who came to MW:O expecting to play a game that was BT on the computer.
I suppose I shouldn't fault the players as much as I do - you're only taking advantage of a massive over-sight on the Dev's part.
But not just mine, every other person who came to MW:O expecting to play a game that was BT on the computer.
I suppose I shouldn't fault the players as much as I do - you're only taking advantage of a massive over-sight on the Dev's part.
Now this i don't understand. Almost never in TT did anyone ever fire just one weapon per 10 second turn. People fired as many weapons as they had and wanted to fire. Which is exactly what we do in mwo.
Now this could be made into an argument for all weapons having a 10 second cycle tomatch TT values, but saying firing as many weapons as you wanted at the same time is 'imersion breaking' is basically saying you never played TT, but that is how you think it played.
#34
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:16 AM
espritjaeger, on 23 October 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:
I've been playing for a month or so by now (quite frequently), and would say that pulse lasers are definitely useful. I would sacrifice the extra weight and heat to use them, and I do. The catch is that they are not part of your regular set of weapons.
They work well for faster in your face pitched battles that end in a couple of seconds. This makes them much more useful for lights, though, paradoxically, the weight increase greatly decreases the usefulness for lights. To put it into perspective... you are exposing yourself about 100% longer when you are using regular lasers versus pulse lasers. That's a 100% longer time frame for your enemy to twitch and/or fire back at you. When you are aiming at them, you are not as focused on finding cover/escaping, which makes you more likely to be hit. I could fire the pulse laser and begin to torso twist to protect myself in the same time span.
The beam duration allows you to land maximum damage in a minimum time frame, and that's the main point of it. This is not a brawler weapon. I find two uses for it; 1) equipping them on fast mechs to do focused hit and run attacks, and 2) equipping a few on a slower mech to scare off and/or kill fast mechs.
I can run behind a mech, land an alpha into a weakened back CT, then circle a building while the enemy tries to locate me, and land a killing alpha into that back CT. You're paying extra heat and weight to help land maximum and more concenetrated hits on a single spot. Average human reflex time is like... 150-300 milliseconds? a 1 second duration beam means that the enemy has 700-850 milliseconds to do something before your beam finishes delivering damage. At .6 seconds, that gives the enemy 300-450 milliseconds to do something before your pulse finishes. It cuts the window for a "potential" error in half, and I'd assume that HSR works more favorably in this instance as well. If you ABOSLUTELY need to land that shot on that spot in that moment, pulse will do wonders for you.
Personally, I find that lasers are much more well suited for heavier/slower mechs. I can pack more power for the same weight, or add more heatsinks. A slow mech with armor fighting against other slow/medium speed mechs does not need to worry about getting that absolute hit on that absolute spot in that absolute moment. You are more likely to slug it out, and have the armor capacity to take a bit more time to aim. If you are building a mech to stand and fight or brawl, then you can do better things witih your weight and heat than using pulse lasers. If you are building a mech to hit fast targets, or to do guerilla combat, then pulse lasers will be great. Want a ranged combat mech? Forget anything pulse.
Pulse lasers are great for fast light mechs, but paradoxically work against lights by having significantly higher weight requirements.
They work well for faster in your face pitched battles that end in a couple of seconds. This makes them much more useful for lights, though, paradoxically, the weight increase greatly decreases the usefulness for lights. To put it into perspective... you are exposing yourself about 100% longer when you are using regular lasers versus pulse lasers. That's a 100% longer time frame for your enemy to twitch and/or fire back at you. When you are aiming at them, you are not as focused on finding cover/escaping, which makes you more likely to be hit. I could fire the pulse laser and begin to torso twist to protect myself in the same time span.
The beam duration allows you to land maximum damage in a minimum time frame, and that's the main point of it. This is not a brawler weapon. I find two uses for it; 1) equipping them on fast mechs to do focused hit and run attacks, and 2) equipping a few on a slower mech to scare off and/or kill fast mechs.
I can run behind a mech, land an alpha into a weakened back CT, then circle a building while the enemy tries to locate me, and land a killing alpha into that back CT. You're paying extra heat and weight to help land maximum and more concenetrated hits on a single spot. Average human reflex time is like... 150-300 milliseconds? a 1 second duration beam means that the enemy has 700-850 milliseconds to do something before your beam finishes delivering damage. At .6 seconds, that gives the enemy 300-450 milliseconds to do something before your pulse finishes. It cuts the window for a "potential" error in half, and I'd assume that HSR works more favorably in this instance as well. If you ABOSLUTELY need to land that shot on that spot in that moment, pulse will do wonders for you.
Personally, I find that lasers are much more well suited for heavier/slower mechs. I can pack more power for the same weight, or add more heatsinks. A slow mech with armor fighting against other slow/medium speed mechs does not need to worry about getting that absolute hit on that absolute spot in that absolute moment. You are more likely to slug it out, and have the armor capacity to take a bit more time to aim. If you are building a mech to stand and fight or brawl, then you can do better things witih your weight and heat than using pulse lasers. If you are building a mech to hit fast targets, or to do guerilla combat, then pulse lasers will be great. Want a ranged combat mech? Forget anything pulse.
Pulse lasers are great for fast light mechs, but paradoxically work against lights by having significantly higher weight requirements.
I think we can all agree that under certain circumstances pulse lasers are better than regular lasers. The thing is, for the 1 out of 5 situations where they work better than regular lasers, they simply don't worth the heat, the reduced range, and the weight.
#35
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:21 AM
Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:
Basically, yeah.
But not just mine, every other person who came to MW:O expecting to play a game that was BT on the computer.
I suppose I shouldn't fault the players as much as I do - you're only taking advantage of a massive over-sight on the Dev's part.
Although, there is something to be said about people who will exploit anything they can in a game...
Some call them players, some call them gamers. Some might even call them humans.
Quote
Hey, if you were playing a Hockey game, and for some reason it let you pick the puck up in your hand and throw it into the net - would you do it?
It's not a part of Hockey at all, and you're playing a game that's supposed to be Hockey... but winning is very important.
It's not a part of Hockey at all, and you're playing a game that's supposed to be Hockey... but winning is very important.
Here's the trick clever game designers figure out in such cases. They create a hockey game where it'S not just against the spirit, but against the rules, if people do this.
If your rules have unintended side effects, you must adjust them.
#36
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:22 AM
Roland, on 23 October 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:
This is why pulse lasers are, effectively, always a bad choice.
Absolutely false. The 6 Small Pulse Jenner is the single most powerful light 'mech on the field right now, with it's massive duration cut making it the first line of defense against anything fast moving.
While most pulse lasers seriously need a buff, occasionally even MPLs work on a design centered around attacking lights - like the Streaktaro, as well. But the SPL is far and away the supreme weapon of light 'mech combat right now, competitively and in pugs. The range advantage simply doesn't cut that half-second change in duration.
#37
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:26 AM
I'd like to see Pulse Lasers work more like ballistics that deliver all their damage near-instantly to 1 location. The "pulse" from Pulse Lasers should be reduced to almost an instantaneous burst. I would gladly take Medium Pulse Lasers over Medium Lasers if I knew that the reduced range and increased heat came with the benefit of dealing all damage to the location I was over when I pulled the trigger. This would also be a great counter to light mechs as an energy boat.
#38
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- Knight Errant
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:39 AM
Shadey99, on 23 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:
Now this i don't understand. Almost never in TT did anyone ever fire just one weapon per 10 second turn. People fired as many weapons as they had and wanted to fire. Which is exactly what we do in mwo.
Now this could be made into an argument for all weapons having a 10 second cycle tomatch TT values, but saying firing as many weapons as you wanted at the same time is 'imersion breaking' is basically saying you never played TT, but that is how you think it played.
Now this could be made into an argument for all weapons having a 10 second cycle tomatch TT values, but saying firing as many weapons as you wanted at the same time is 'imersion breaking' is basically saying you never played TT, but that is how you think it played.
While true (I always click "alpha strike" in MW:Tactics), I think the general interpretation of this was that the weapons were fired over the course of those 10 seconds, instead of all within the first 0.1 second.
#39
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- Moderate Giver
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:42 AM
I really appreciate your responses, mike29tw.
It seems like we're starting to see things a bit more clearly from each other's perspective, something that doesn't happen much on the internet. Will try to give you a better response in a little bit.
This is completely true, nobody put a limit on how many weapons you could fire each round in TT. However, after firing off all/most of your weapons a couple rounds in a row, your Mech would be pushing mid to high heat and subject to movement penalties, aiming penalties, potential ammo cook-offs, and even a Mech shut-down (first potential shut down happened around 50% heat capacity). Or did you not use the Heat Scale when you played TT?
This is why it's "immersion breaking" to see it happening in MWO with no draw-backs, besides shutting down at 100% heat.
Just look at the table:
According to this, a simple "Alpha" from a 2xAC20 Jager should put it to14 12 Heat - causing the Mech to slow down, become worse at aiming, and even a potential shut-down! From one shot of the "AC40".
How many times can the average AC40-Jager fire in MWO before they overheat?
Hell, even firing off 2 Medium Lasers at the same time should be reducing the speed and accuracy of your Mech slightly.
(Ignoring Heat Sinks for the moment, because all Mechs have different amounts)
I'm not saying that MWO needs to have an exact replica of the Standard Heat Scale implemented, but it'd be amazing if they introduced something similar and it would go a long way to helping many of the problems that this game is facing.
EDIT:
Was using the TT heat numbers for the AC20. Changed it to the MWO heat, which is 1 less than TT.
EDIT #2:
Here is an online PDF of the Classic Battletech Rulebook.
Jump to page 38 to see the write-up about heat.
EDIT #3:
Well let's see. A stock Awesome had 28 Heat Sinks in it (that's a lot of weight dedicated to Heat Sinks, no?) That's why it was able to fire off those PPCs so much, if it was stopped, it'd take 7 consecutive rounds of firing until the first potential Shut-Down, but it's also accumulating a bunch of speed and accuracy penalties along the way.
How many Heat Sinks do the typical Assaults in MWO use again?
It seems like we're starting to see things a bit more clearly from each other's perspective, something that doesn't happen much on the internet. Will try to give you a better response in a little bit.
Shadey99, on 23 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:
Now this i don't understand. Almost never in TT did anyone ever fire just one weapon per 10 second turn. People fired as many weapons as they had and wanted to fire. Which is exactly what we do in mwo.
Now this could be made into an argument for all weapons having a 10 second cycle tomatch TT values, but saying firing as many weapons as you wanted at the same time is 'imersion breaking' is basically saying you never played TT, but that is how you think it played.
Now this could be made into an argument for all weapons having a 10 second cycle tomatch TT values, but saying firing as many weapons as you wanted at the same time is 'imersion breaking' is basically saying you never played TT, but that is how you think it played.
This is completely true, nobody put a limit on how many weapons you could fire each round in TT. However, after firing off all/most of your weapons a couple rounds in a row, your Mech would be pushing mid to high heat and subject to movement penalties, aiming penalties, potential ammo cook-offs, and even a Mech shut-down (first potential shut down happened around 50% heat capacity). Or did you not use the Heat Scale when you played TT?
This is why it's "immersion breaking" to see it happening in MWO with no draw-backs, besides shutting down at 100% heat.
Just look at the table:
According to this, a simple "Alpha" from a 2xAC20 Jager should put it to
How many times can the average AC40-Jager fire in MWO before they overheat?
Hell, even firing off 2 Medium Lasers at the same time should be reducing the speed and accuracy of your Mech slightly.
(Ignoring Heat Sinks for the moment, because all Mechs have different amounts)
I'm not saying that MWO needs to have an exact replica of the Standard Heat Scale implemented, but it'd be amazing if they introduced something similar and it would go a long way to helping many of the problems that this game is facing.
EDIT:
Was using the TT heat numbers for the AC20. Changed it to the MWO heat, which is 1 less than TT.
EDIT #2:
Here is an online PDF of the Classic Battletech Rulebook.
Jump to page 38 to see the write-up about heat.
EDIT #3:
Zyllos, on 23 October 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:
You are indeed correct, even if making the assumption that players played stock loadouts, mechs like the Awesome would still fire 3 PPCs every chance it did until firing more caused an issue.
Well let's see. A stock Awesome had 28 Heat Sinks in it (that's a lot of weight dedicated to Heat Sinks, no?) That's why it was able to fire off those PPCs so much, if it was stopped, it'd take 7 consecutive rounds of firing until the first potential Shut-Down, but it's also accumulating a bunch of speed and accuracy penalties along the way.
How many Heat Sinks do the typical Assaults in MWO use again?
Edited by Fut, 23 October 2013 - 11:11 AM.
#40
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:43 AM
Shadey99, on 23 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:
Now this i don't understand. Almost never in TT did anyone ever fire just one weapon per 10 second turn. People fired as many weapons as they had and wanted to fire. Which is exactly what we do in mwo.
Now this could be made into an argument for all weapons having a 10 second cycle tomatch TT values, but saying firing as many weapons as you wanted at the same time is 'imersion breaking' is basically saying you never played TT, but that is how you think it played.
Now this could be made into an argument for all weapons having a 10 second cycle tomatch TT values, but saying firing as many weapons as you wanted at the same time is 'imersion breaking' is basically saying you never played TT, but that is how you think it played.
You are indeed correct, even if making the assumption that players played stock loadouts, mechs like the Awesome would still fire 3 PPCs every chance it did until firing more caused an issue.
But, the idea still stands that 3 PPCs did not all hit a single location. This is what breaks the armor system, it assumes damage from multiple firings are going to be spread out in some distributed fashion.
Either way, this is slightly off topic so...
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