123 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Keep hating that >15% of the time you lose cause you didn't get a fight. It is so good to see Mercule's easy to follow Logic, yet so bad that there are some who just cannot understand it.

[Voivode]

Farix, on 03 November 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

Nether game mode is "simple" if both teams play the mode properly. Conquest is very much a game of out maneuvering the other team, which takes considerable skill and coordination. In Assault, the team that attempts to assault the other team's base is going to have a difficult time if the other team is prepared for it.

In competitive matches where you pick a team rounded out for the task, yes. In a pug match where matchmaker decides one team needs 5 lights and the other gets a cicada, not so much.

[Sandpit]

I find conquest goes much easier when pugging if I ask the lights to grab either Kappa or Epsi while I try to get the heavies to congregate at Theta and then we all regroup and move where we need to from there. It evens out the cap race (or gives us a lead right off the bat) and lets us control key areas while never being caught off guard and getting ambushed.

Assault works in similar fashion. I someone gives a few gameplan ideas and isn't a {Richard Cameron} about it, usually we work together and roll right over enemy teams that want to run around like spider monkeys all jacked up on mountain dew

[Gevurah]

99.999% of pubbies don't do anything but follow the blob. This is because there's safety in numbers and very few people are stupid enough to be the sacrificial lamb who will stand in the square to stop a lightswarm on a big map like alpine or what not while the rest of their team is too far out of range to assist.

The worst part is if you stand around defending, then generally the whole team stands around. A whole team on defense either means the game takes 8-10 minutes because both teams defend or in general you lose the defense.

Also it should be noted that typical 'defender advantages' listed from a real world historical perspective are not valid here. They represent entrenched and well fortified positions. In this game though, bases are anything but. In fact, they're usually killing bowls by design of needing room to drop large amounts of players as a start point. So typically the defending team is at a supreme disadvantage due to loss of initiative and poor terrain.

Cap rush is basically a psychological win in every sense by exploiting the current system's lack of functional in game communications.

You know you're either going to cause the enemy team to turn around in a blind, uncontrolled lemming rush back to base which will result in their slaughter in the face of the enemy - or they will simply ignore you because they don't want to deal with the hassle of it. In which case you'll simply sit there and win by default. One last alternative is they will simply rush your base and very often beat you by simply having their whole team jump on it vs your 4. But that only happens rarely since most people despise cap games.

If a single defender is there, your swarm of 2-5 lights/high speed mechs will simply beat the pants off of them and things will proceed as planned. If two defenders it SOMETIMES works. But then your offensive team is cut down by lack of tonnage since you're effectively trading some 30 tonners or 20 tonners for 2+ medium, heavy or assault mechs. This doesn't even get into matchmaker fails where you have 7 assaults on a map like terra therma vs their team of 6 lights/fast mediums who wait till you hit mid and cap knowing full well they have no way to stop it.

In short, it's lose lose on any map of real scale. The older speed brawl maps like forest colony are easy enough to deal with a cap rush because setting up a defensive line puts you halfway to their base anyways.

I respect a cap as a functional set of tactics, but disagree with their value as a win. Generally I'm trying to maximize my cbills, my exp, fun factor, etc. I'm not trying to expand my w/l ratio or troll people for a good time.

And really, that's all I see from the cap rushing exponents:

A) I win at any cost because this game is about winning (at least, that's the mentality). Interesting tidbit - did you know sociopaths generally are the "gotta win at any cost" types?
or
I do it because it annoys other players and that gets my rocks off (side note: f*** troll culture). Another interesting tidbit - this is also classical sociopathic behavior?

But in the eyes of "it's better experience" - it isn't - it's mathematically abysmal as a way to level a mech. Is it more fun? I'd say the vast amount of people would prefer an awesome fight in this game vs standing in a damn box, but hey, lots of people like miley too, so who knows. Bear in mind I'm not calling out capping as an implausible win method. It is. And some games it's the only option, like your entire team has been obliterated and you're in a legged raven or something. But what I'm talking about here is cap rushing *ON ASSAULT MODE* - the act of running straight to the enemy base at game start. And that's what I take issue with; it's an absurd way of using a crappy game mode in a high reward, low risk method of winning that ensures minimum rewards for everyone involved.

[Zarlaren]

The Reason for the cap hate is there is no rewards for capping but there is rewards for killing and you get more money killing then capping this needs to be changed if you got a capping mission why do you punish people for capping on a capping mode? That does not make since what so ever.

If you want the cap hate to go away then add cap rewards that rewards cappers with the same benifits as a all kill out.

[Sandpit]

Zarla, on 06 November 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

The Reason for the cap hate is there is no rewards for capping but there is rewards for killing and you get more money killing then capping this needs to be changed if you got a capping mission why do you punish people for capping on a capping mode? That does not make since what so ever.

If you want the cap hate to go away then add cap rewards that rewards cappers with the same benifits as a all kill out.

lol

There's no "punishment" for capping other than douchebags TKing, ranting, raging, etc. If you want cap hate to go away, ask players not to act like spoiled little children because they aren't getting the absolute maximum amount of earnings every single match (especially when caps only result in about 11% of the victories overall)

[990Dreams]

Mercules, on 05 November 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Again we see the same "Derp" in yet another thread about base capping.
Time to pull out the same logic I have to every time.


You want to fight. Now if you ignore your base and simply move off to where you think the fight will be there is a chance the enemy will not oblige you and might move around you and cap your base at which point you lose and do not get your fight. If you defend your base instead of ignoring it then the enemy has no second option to win the game without a fight and so must engage you in a fight. So claiming you want a fight and then ignoring your base is ridiculous. It is actually worthy of ridicule.

So then we get to the point where someone says something stupid about how 1 guy guarding the base isn't fun or effective. You are correct. Now if that was actually defending your base you might have an argument.

Defending your base means simply finding the enemy and engaging them in a manner that they can not attack your base. This should be a priority but the number of idiots who rush to be the first to a supposedly agreed upon spot to engage and completely miss people moving around the flank is amazing.

It doesn't take much to clear the flanks. Do you know how many times pugging in a fast Shadowhawk or other mech I get, "Mercules, stick with the group." and all I am doing is slipping over a ridge to get clear LoS on a flank and I can return to the main group in 10 seconds tops? No, if you are not blobbed up then people insist you will be killed instantly.

You need to break apart a tiny bit, not so far you can not support each other, but just enough to check those flanks and cut off any people flanking you. You find them and then you make sure they are forced to engage you. If you have slow mechs that can't move into a good position you hit them with long ranged things and consolidate back towards YOUR base. Bring the fight where you choose.

Identify where the enemy is, engage and intercept, and you will ALWAYS have a fight and not a Base Cap on your hands.

Exactly. Almost all of the cappers don't realize this: You cannot do anything by just sitting around and guarding. You have to engage at some point. Defend through offense.

[Farix]

That's only part of it Zarla. The C-bill and XP rewards are too focused on combat/damage and not enough on other roles. However, as soon as rewards are given for non-combat roles, the same group that QQs over "cap warrior" begin to complain about the lack of skill of those other roles.

[PropagandaWar]

I use to venehemtly oppose capping however recently came to the conlusion that I only hate capping under certain circumstances only:

When capping sucks:
1st) When the game ends with 1 or 2 mechs are down. This is usually caused by team ***** and the lance of cap accel lights.
2nd) when the stupid arse Atlas lance went to do it and caused its team to get owned, and they in turn got schooled themselves
3rd) Same as above but the team capping failed to recognize how close the enemy was close to their own base and came and blew their butts out of the water.
4th) Small maps in the first 3 minutes or so of battle. Big maps the first 5.
5th) When a fair sized group that could have turned the tide left to go cap instead of 1 or 2 mechs.


When capping sseems fine:

A) Your obviously down too many mechs yet you still have enough to defend while 2 mechs go cap.
Your fighting the epic fight while on cap.
C) The other team is having to do the same thing because it may be the only way to pull off a victory (Again not super early in game but at end).
D) When the Jerkwad enemy starts the early cap and you just need to smack them back for doing such a lame thing.
E) When its apparent there is a huge tonnage issue.

[Jazzbandit1313]

I'm telling you...the sole purpose of light mechs is to scout ahead and call targets. Help assaults during battle with the few weapons they have. Do things that a smaller, faster, and less weapon heavy mech should do. Capping should only be valid if 6 members of your team have been eliminated already.

[990Dreams]

Some dumb teammates capped to try and lure the enemies to us. We were overrun and had no pan B (i.e capping as a last option).
EDIT: Why was there *s in my post? I didn't write that or a swear word.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 06 November 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

First and foremost comment on capping and its validity and tactical value -

Pugs.

Pretending that capping is some act of tactical brilliance or that it's the losers fault for not stopping a cap is the same argument as 'everyone should just join a unit and drop in 12mans all the time while on VOIP. If they don't it's their problem'. It's right up there with 'If everyone was a good white english speaking Christian like me the world would be a better place'. That statement is so wrong it goes beyond just the individual logical fallacies of the argument and gets right to making plain and blatant the inner moral failings of the person making the statement. It's past just being wrong and gets right into making the rest of humanity facepalm.

I get the enjoyment from capping. It's the only thing 1 person can do that feels like it has a significant impact on something in the game. It's gratifying both from the sense that you might win just by standing on a square regardless of how good or bad you are or the other team is and it's gratifying that you're able to impact everyone on both teams with it.

What it really does is gimp the value of that match, win or loss. A cap win is trading an easy victory without comparable risk for less pay. The element of 'tactics' it adds to the game could fit in a matchbox. Winning because you managed to hide from the enemy then stand in a box is not comparable to winning because you were faster, smarter, more accurate, had better trigger discipline, were bolder or the like.

I play the game to fight regardless of what mech I bring. People saying lights need to cap should watch people like PEEF and Wispy play, they pilot lights and chew through mechs of any weight class and they do it by sheer skill with the mech - I'm not talking spiders either but Jenners, which is how someone with brass bits rolls in a light.

If someone likes that sense of empowerment that's fine. I almost never RTB unless it's clearly 1 or 2 lights and they can be handled and I can trust the rest of my team to be smart and stay in the field. If it's clear there was a cap-rush or there's 4 mechs on base I advise teams NOT RTB. Go fight until the cap timer runs out, the best thing you can do now is deny the people capping any kills or additional rewards and get your own bonuses up as high as possible. I can get more XP and cbills fighting well and losing to cap than I can winning in a cap rush.

A cap win is winning by not fighting. In a real war that's great. In a game that's simulating war for the fun of fighting in robots that's not the same as winning by your skill at steady focus, situational awareness, good aim, smart choice of loadout and build, trigger discipline, cunning use of terrain and all the things that go into winning a fight in MWO.

A couple pages back Joseph posted a common phrase in many USMC units of Improvise, Adapt, Overcome. That's great but not everyone has what it takes to be a Marine. Not everyone has what it takes to brush their teeth every day. Some people just get by on the cap-win, the victory by technicality. It's a good thing that the USMC does NOT have the motto of 'Take the easy way' or 'No point relying on skill when you can exploit a technicality and still call it some sort of a win.'

Winning on a technicality is not the same as winning because you played better and capping is often winning on a technicality.

Not that it's always a bad thing. I get capping late game, capping when the other team is effectively destroyed and running away, running for a cap when your team has been crushed, situations where you don't have an option to win the battle by fighting. Capping any other time though is just intentionally gimping the payout for everyone on both teams because it makes you feel good to have some sort of significant impact on the match. That says way more about you than it does the people who lose their temper at you for doing it.

Whatever, I'll drop in the next match and have fun. It doesn't happen often and I think most people have more respect for others and themselves to act that way in a social environment. Just don't be surprised when people call you out for being a selfish twit.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 06 November 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

I think most people have more respect for others and themselves to act that way in a social environment.

as opposed to TKing, ranting, raging, name calling, bashing, etc. on someone for going for a cap right?

Game mode = win by kills or capping, let's whine groan and moan about people who cap because it's (insert whatever detrimental reason you want here)

How about instead of all of these threads (maybe I should start a list on duplicate threads? hmm....) you either don't play until they get a game mode you like or play the game modes that are in the game now and stop berating people who don't want to play the exact same way that you feel is "legitimate"

You = generic player noone in particular

Just pointing out that it's ridiculous that this is even a topic on the forums

I can sum up about half of the threads and topics on the forums lately

"I want everyone to conform to my idea of fun and if they don't they're wrong and stupid and shouldn't bother posting anything that disagrees with my facts opinions"

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

as opposed to TKing, ranting, raging, name calling, bashing, etc. on someone for going for a cap right?

Game mode = win by kills or capping, let's whine groan and moan about people who cap because it's (insert whatever detrimental reason you want here)

How about instead of all of these threads (maybe I should start a list on duplicate threads? hmm....) you either don't play until they get a game mode you like or play the game modes that are in the game now and stop berating people who don't want to play the exact same way that you feel is "legitimate"

You = generic player noone in particular

Just pointing out that it's ridiculous that this is even a topic on the forums

I can sum up about half of the threads and topics on the forums lately

"I want everyone to conform to my idea of fun and if they don't they're wrong and stupid and shouldn't bother posting anything that disagrees with my facts opinions"

In a word, no.

You're attempting to conflate wanting everyone to play my way with not liking capping victories and their reduced payout, shorter match length and such.

I have no problem with capping in the same way I'm past having a problem with 3PV. using 3PV to peek around corners is every bit valid - so was seismic when it first came out, so were PPCs when they were about as cool as LLs and dominated the meta. So were LRMs when they were 3 hits to kill with ~40 tubes. Just because it's in the game doesn't make it a good thing nor the people who take them to extremes good people. It's one thing to cap, it's another to cap-rush just to troll people.

I'm not advocating TKing anyone but I don't see anything unreasonable with calling someone out for doing something negative for your team be that cap-rushing so nobody else in the game on either side gets more than a fraction of the payout or bottlenecking on the way into the caldera on Terra Therma so your whole team can't shoot and gets rained with fire and LRMs. Of course people are going to call you out for being a twit to other people, that's part of playing in a social environment. You don't want called out on it go play a single player game.

If people cap it's not that big a deal. Pretending that it's in any way, shape or form comparable with winning a fight or that it's every bit as legit a win as wiping out the other team is disingenuous and should get called to the carpet.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 06 November 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

In a word, no.

You're attempting to conflate wanting everyone to play my way with not liking capping victories and their reduced payout, shorter match length and such.

I have no problem with capping in the same way I'm past having a problem with 3PV. using 3PV to peek around corners is every bit valid - so was seismic when it first came out, so were PPCs when they were about as cool as LLs and dominated the meta. So were LRMs when they were 3 hits to kill with ~40 tubes. Just because it's in the game doesn't make it a good thing nor the people who take them to extremes good people. It's one thing to cap, it's another to cap-rush just to troll people.

I'm not advocating TKing anyone but I don't see anything unreasonable with calling someone out for doing something negative for your team be that cap-rushing so nobody else in the game on either side gets more than a fraction of the payout or bottlenecking on the way into the caldera on Terra Therma so your whole team can't shoot and gets rained with fire and LRMs. Of course people are going to call you out for being a twit to other people, that's part of playing in a social environment. You don't want called out on it go play a single player game.

If people cap it's not that big a deal. Pretending that it's in any way, shape or form comparable with winning a fight or that it's every bit as legit a win as wiping out the other team is disingenuous and should get called to the carpet.

No, I'm specifically pointing out all of the different thigns I have experienced and seen posted on here concerning capping and assault. The bottom line is whether a player likes it or not, it's legitimate, it's in the game for a reason (reagrdless of your opinion on that reason and whethere or not it's "fun"), and noone should be berated simply because someone else gets mad about that particular win mechanic.
That right there is exactly where the entire "debate" (strange that we should even have a "debate" about a legitimate win mechanic placed in the game by the developers that doesn't break any rules isn't it?) should start and end.

The 3pv, LLs, etc. are all balancing issues and don't compare to this. Plus you're flat out talking about exploitive use of one feature (3pv since it's not SUPPOSED to be used in that manner) which is totally irrelevant to to talking about a legitimate win mechanic. It's not another thing to make a rush for the enemy's base to win. I guess I should put your opinion of "fun" when it comes to the game above my desire to use a legitimate and supported tactic and game mechanic to win?

You shouldn't have to worry about rushing for a win and being harassed and berated simply because someone else doesn't want to win that way. If you don't want to deal with other people playing the game using a different tactic than you prefer then go play a single-player game. OR join a team of people who enjoy playing the way you do and make sure one of you scouts in case a team tries to sneak past you.

No, no they shouldn't. Using a game the exact way it was designed should not result in "being called to the carpet".

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

No, I'm specifically pointing out all of the different thigns I have experienced and seen posted on here concerning capping and assault. The bottom line is whether a player likes it or not, it's legitimate, it's in the game for a reason (reagrdless of your opinion on that reason and whethere or not it's "fun"), and noone should be berated simply because someone else gets mad about that particular win mechanic.
That right there is exactly where the entire "debate" (strange that we should even have a "debate" about a legitimate win mechanic placed in the game by the developers that doesn't break any rules isn't it?) should start and end.

The 3pv, LLs, etc. are all balancing issues and don't compare to this. Plus you're flat out talking about exploitive use of one feature (3pv since it's not SUPPOSED to be used in that manner) which is totally irrelevant to to talking about a legitimate win mechanic. It's not another thing to make a rush for the enemy's base to win. I guess I should put your opinion of "fun" when it comes to the game above my desire to use a legitimate and supported tactic and game mechanic to win?

You shouldn't have to worry about rushing for a win and being harassed and berated simply because someone else doesn't want to win that way. If you don't want to deal with other people playing the game using a different tactic than you prefer then go play a single-player game. OR join a team of people who enjoy playing the way you do and make sure one of you scouts in case a team tries to sneak past you.

No, no they shouldn't. Using a game the exact way it was designed should not result in "being called to the carpet".

Capping is every bit as legit as peeking with 3PV. Peeking with 3PV is exactly how it's supposed to be used - Garth was advising people on his team to do so in a live broadcast.

It's not simply about what's fun for one person or another, it's about the impact of your choices on others. Capping in many situations reduces payoffs for every other player in the game.

It's like playing your stereo loud enough to annoy your neighbors. It's not illegal (before a certain time of night) but it's still not cool. Yes, the stereo is there. yes, it can be very loud. It's there to be listened to. It's assumed that you're not going to use it to troll people. Which is what cap-rushing is. You have every right to yell at your neighbors for being selfish and inconsiderate because you're in proximity in a shared social environment.

Exactly like pointing out that cap-rushing in many situations is asinine. You're shafting 23 other people, often because you want to feel significant in a big group of people or express personal authority or feel like you're winning regardless of fighting ability, whatever.

Capping is there for all the reasons stated above to prevent matches going too long or people being trolled. Using it to cap-rush is legit in the same way ridge peeking with 3PV is legit. It's there and you can do it but to expect respect for it is ridiculous.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 06 November 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

It's not simply about what's fun for one person or another, it's about the impact of your choices on others. Capping in many situations reduces payoffs for every other player in the game.

As opposed to losing.

Bottom line is that's how the game mode was designed. There are tons of ways to counter a cap rush. Complaining repeatedly about it because you don't like it does not change anything, nor does it excuse poor behavior against people who do it. Just because you feel justified doesn't mean it IS justified.

Instead of repeatedly complaining about it you can either not play the game mode or wait for one of the other game modes to come out that the devs are currently working on. In the meantime just remember that TKing, team legging, griefing someone, etc. might just land a player on the ban list if reported repeatedly for it. Those players winning via cap won't. So being a jerk to players for doing better be worth that possibility especially if you actually want to keep playing in the community and enjoying the game.

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

As opposed to losing.

Bottom line is that's how the game mode was designed. There are tons of ways to counter a cap rush. Complaining repeatedly about it because you don't like it does not change anything, nor does it excuse poor behavior against people who do it. Just because you feel justified doesn't mean it IS justified.

Instead of repeatedly complaining about it you can either not play the game mode or wait for one of the other game modes to come out that the devs are currently working on. In the meantime just remember that TKing, team legging, griefing someone, etc. might just land a player on the ban list if reported repeatedly for it. Those players winning via cap won't. So being a jerk to players for doing better be worth that possibility especially if you actually want to keep playing in the community and enjoying the game.

Again, I'm not saying capping is terrible any more than 3PV peeking is terrible. I'm not advocating TKing, legging or griefing anyone and those things should be reported.

My point is simply that this attitude of 'capping is WINNING and I'M A WINNER!' is worthing of mocking and if someone cap-rushes or caps out when there's 3 enemies left that the rest of your team is in the middle of killing or it's an even match and both sides of the match are having a rollicking battle and someone caps out because.... they can and don't care how it impacts everyone else playing the match they deserve called out. Same way you do anyone else intentionally doing something to irritate everyone else around them.

It's a social game. If you don't want to play with other people then play a solo game. If you play with other people and enjoy making it less enjoyable for them you're a bad person. That's not some off-the-cuff moralizing but a legitimate observation.

Your team virtually wiped out? Go cap. Other team starts to cap? Go cap. No more weapons? Go cap. Wipe out all but 1 or 2 enemy mechs who run and power down? go cap. A lot of legit reasons to go cap that nobody is going to ***** about. Sneaking a cap-run with 4 assaults while the rest of your team gets slaughtered because they're 4 assaults down? They are absolutely socially justified in calling you a jerk in chat. 5 minutes into a match on Alpine and you and a couple of buddies in lights with cap accelerators cap-rush? Yes, you'll get trash talked by both teams, you just cost the remaining 19 people a good 7 minutes of wasted time.

Capping before the fight starts is entirely different than capping when the fighting is nearly over. I get the motivation to do it, especially if someone is a light pilot who isn't that good - not a lot of options. Look at the Locust or Commando, people *love* to see them, they're generally a free kill. I'm not going to TK someone or leg them and agree the people who do deserve reported. If someone caprushes and the rest of the team says politely in chat 'don't cap please' and they just cap though? Yes, they're a jerk. It's a team game and a social game. Act selfish and get called selfish, that's a fundamental part of how societies work.

[Edustaja]

One of the reasons for the irritation are the four man teams.
With four mechs on the base there is no way that the main force is going to make it back on most maps.
This makes players feel a lot of frustration.

[Wil McCullough]

i don't understand why some players have the mentality that "it's in the game so it's valid".

no one's arguing that it isn't valid. oh, no.

no one's trying to take your win away from you. it's yours. you can have it. really.

it's just a win that employs a tactic only useful because of design oversight. it's still a win. no one's denying that.

what we're saying is that cap rushing is what it is: a jerk move.

you're denying 23 other people their right to play the way they want to play, because you declare you have the right to play the way you want to play.

winning by cap gives you 75xp and no cbills. swiping a laser across a couple of enemies and locking them as targets gives you more rewards both xp and cbills wise in about 1/10th of the time. you can even run away after that to hide and still get the assist rewards.

that means the only reason a cap warrior would cap rush is because he wants to win. nothing else.

and elo means that your w/l r automatically even out at 50/50 in the long run.

so let's be serious. what's the real point of cap rushing?

there are no rewards for it.

when you win, you don't feel much satisfaction because you know you won using a jerk move. and when you lose, you know you tried to pull a jerk move and still failed. so you feel like doo doo.

why do cap warriors put themselves through this?

you're just short changing everyone including yourself. i mean, yeah really. it's your right to do it. but that doesn't mean everyone else should be happy about it, pat you on your back and tell you you're a credit to the team.