306 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 25 October 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

well if you're going to go that route you have to get rid of mech lab and custom mechs as well because if you think pilots that could do that were rare........

I really am happy to see that the VAST majority of pilots have no problem with this tactic. So tired of seeing everyone run to the forums every time they gets rolled and blame everything but their own skill and/or strategy (or lack thereof)

I could play that way too. Don't think you got me cornered, I have never(or at the least hardly ever) complained about a single Meta this game has thrown at us. I take em as a challenge to overcome, I was fine with 6 PPC Stalkers, GaussPults, StreakCats! Everything, so StockMech Rally... Bring it! If I win I win. If I lose I lose, but how did I fair in the end?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[Mycrus]

Voidcrafter, on 25 October 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

So you're saying that I must cower like some woosie, just cause 7 people on the other side thinking "OOH I'M GONNA GO JUMP SNIPE, THAT'S SO NOT MAINSTREAM!!!" and ended in the same match and team decieded to go nuts?
And cower for how long? 5 mins? 10? As long as they get bored from having the "upper"(literally ha ha) hand?
What exactly is not "their terms" in this game? Cause believe it or not I've seen some good poptarts and they can always hold you in "their terms".

seriously L2P... move to flank them dezgra... don't just sit there and take it like a u know wat.

Voidcrafter, on 25 October 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

But do try to call me bad pilot, please - just cause I see a reason in being pinned down by some poptarts - something in the current meta any pilot should pay the most attention to - which kinda prevents me from giving my 100%.

if the boots fit, lace it up and own it like the dezgra surat that you are.

Voidcrafter, on 25 October 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

I will underline it, INTENTIONALLLY abscence of armor on the back cause those pilots are ordinary fully aware of what I've dscribed, and there you have it - it does seems like an issue now does it?
So basically - again - I don't have issues with those builds - I'm a bit raging against the idea that the pilots mounting them have in mind

so now the dezgra surat in you is complaning how people distribute armor... yah sure please nurf armor distribution... seriously dezgra... go queue up for the new xbox or something... your arguments are all weaksauce...

[Artillery Witch Viridia]

akpavker, on 24 October 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

lol this comes from a guy that has been playing the game for 4 weeks. dude you have no idea.....

The forums say your join date is when you first post. I have been playing the game since early closed beta. Thanks but nice try.

[Bagheera]

Mycrus, on 24 October 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Why do bad pilots insist on fighting on the poptart's terms???

Quote

Never strike a Striker, never grapple a Grappler, never shoot a Shooter.

Or, for the memespeak crowd:

If you fight the enemy on their terms, you're going to have bad time.

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

The way to eliminate Pop tarting is disable firing while jumping.

Every time someone says this, Gawd kills a Jenner. Heavy-handed fixes are not the answer, and pop-tarting is a non-problem.

Or should Victor not be able to use his AC20 in mid-air because a few players can't fathom that standing in one spot and trying to beat the pop-tart at their own game is a loosing proposition.

Edited by Bagheera, 25 October 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Azoic23, on 24 October 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

If you think "jump sniping" is hard or takes skill you must have terrible aim. It's easy and relatively risk free even if they miss. People wouldn't run poptarts if the mechanics were not wildly in their favor.

No matter how good you are at jump sniping, due to the fact you currently cannot fire accurately before releasing your jj's, the mech the jump sniper is attacking always has the advantage if he knows the jump sniper is there. This only shifts in a situation where there are far more pinpoint type mechs jump sniping than on the target side (as seen in the video), or when the target mech makes some bad mistakes with position and marksmanship (also seen in the video). And removing the ability to fire while jumping would be very problematic, as others have noted.

The best solution is to remove the pinpoint nature of most weapons. I discussed a way of doing this in the high alpha thread that does not involve nerfing convergence or introducing cone of fire.

[Bacl]

If PGi ever stop chasing the dragon and realise that the players are not happy, the game is broken and the balance team need to be replaced " thank you for your time, you did an awesome job ( cough), it was a pleasure" then we can start to have descent solutions.

In the particular case of poptarts they are close to the solution but yet again too dumb to do it correctly. The game needs a cone of fire:

A sniper gets out of cover, wait few seconds for his aim to stabilise ( out of cover so at risk) then he can take his shot at 100% accuracy because he kinda deserves it, if he got lucky enough to not get shot while his nose was out well good for him.

A brawler shooting/ being shot at and moving should have a cone of fire and not be able to target a specific area on the enemy mech unless he stops and wait for his aim to stabilise.

Now for the popcorn syndrome, while you jump your cone of fire gets bigger and since you come back to earth rather fast well it doesnt have the time to stabilise so you either hit your target ( random body shot) or simply miss it. This wouldnt kill the mechanic completly but since it give such an advantage you should have a great chance to miss your shot.

World of tanks implementad that perfectly in their game, ok they have camoflage and such but the sniping and barawling works like a charm amd MWO needs a similar mechanic. Next step would be ghost heat, 3rd person view, ECM, spider hitbox...

Edited by Bacl, 25 October 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Good news everyone ™

PGI is adding JCM to the game (Jump Counter Measures), that prevent enemies from jumping unless they are within 200m of your mech, or if they can temporarily disable your JCM by hitting you with a JARC, Flamer, or Pulse Laser.

Additionally they are inventing Gravity, and once this new real-world technology is developed they will add gravity modeling to the game, causing mechs to fall out of they sky like lead balloons (as opposed to the gas filled balloons they currently model).

But in all seriousness, the impact that jump snipers have on the game is directly related to your Elo score and the matchmaker. One or two poptarts are a detriment to their team, they will get killed without causing any real damage. Having 6+ poptarts is another matter.
Of course at that point are we looking at a jump/poptart problem, or is a symptom of not having weight balance, or allowing 8-12man teams in PUG matches?

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 25 October 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[Ransack]

Good thing the OP is relatively new. What's going on in that video is blah compared to what Poptart Warrior was like a few months ago

[Corvus Antaka]

Farix, on 25 October 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

All of this boils down to whether you think jump-sniping should be a valid tactic or not. As Joseph posted, the tactic is possible in lore, but was not very common. However, lore (aka fiction) is based on the whims of the authors as their goal is to write a thrilling story, not to represent the BattleTech universe in an "accurate" way. These whims should not dictate what is and is not technically valid in MWO.

jumping and shooting should be a viable tactic. But it should be no more viable than any other, and certainly should not lead to the minmax meta ending up in direct fire ballistic instant damage + jumpjets or bust gameplay match after match.

btech:3025 style jumpjets would kill the "stand behind invincible object, hit space, rinse repeat" gameplay. Since current jumpjets are not good in general (ie lets please call them "wall-climbing" jets) and since 1 jet is all any player actually needs to be effective with jets and since we get little hieght or DFA ability is nil the entire and only uses for jumpjets right now are to clear tiny obstacles, get up hills or jumpsnipe.

jumpjets need to move mechs much faster and be more powerful in general, forcing mechs up into the air and should be designed to be useful for DFA, Manuever & rapid repositioning (something they are not very good for now) and shooting while jumping should be the actual least desireable / most difficult / or effective use for jumpjets. Currently this design system is inverted, jumpjets are even worse than even in mechwarrior 4 for actually grabbing air or pulling wicked DFA.

adding shake etc is irrelevant. currently aim is affected but even while aim is shifting a quick "release" of the spacebar is all you need to fire, then hit jets again if you need them. even after releasing the spacebar aim should sqew until the mech has fallen for at least 1 second. this alone might force more exposure & hieght allowing grounded mechs behind terrain better opportunity to return fire.

Really we just need better jumpjet design in general, and this needs to be handled in conjunction with DFA & collisions returning.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 25 October 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[Iron War]

Poptarting takes very little skill . . . on the other hand poptarting with a gauss takes skill and is used very seldom now. Currently during JJ use there is the shake plus the weapon fire spread but unfortunately this implementation is wrong. The shake should still be during JJ use but the fire spread should be just during free fall. This would simulate the weightlessness on the actuators.

Secondly how does the mech torso twist . . . JJ are not maneuvering thrusters. They are fixed features. What can make the mech pitch during free fall? what keeps the leggs from pitching up when u want the torso to pitch down and the same goes for when u want the torso to rotate left and how to keep the legs from going right with out an outside force pushing back on it? there would be more randomness during free fall of a large stompy mech.

Lastly what would happen to the mech with the recoil?

vvv maybe not acturate but pretty cool idea vvv

Edited by Iron War, 25 October 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Christof Romulus]

Azoic23, on 24 October 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

I propose developers disable weapon systems while jumpjetting and the time it takes to fall back down after using them.

I have another way... a... better way...

Technically, jump jets are meant to generate heat.

PGI likes increasing heat penalties...

What I'm trying to say is, mechs should take CT damage over time as long as they are not in contact with terrain. - Just kidding =P

But seriously, since JJ's are supposed to generate great deals of heat ... so why don't they?

Not that TableTop rules apply here, but:

Jumping at all generates 3 heat minimum.
Extended jumping (over 3 hexes) generates heat = distance traveled.

So, at minimum, for MechWarrior Online, jumping should generate heat like a medium laser being constantly fired until the JJ's turn off. I know that doesn't sound like much, and I know everyone is thinking that won't stop people from hop-scotching, but it does open up tactical advantages, as it would help hurt those who try to jump to avoid shots when not in cover, and increases the likely hood of shutting down after the "tart" - which does open them up for counter attacks.

[Augustus Martelus II]

There s missing poptarts jumping around poptart mechs

[Vodrin Thales]

Bacl, on 25 October 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

If PGi ever stop chasing the dragon and realise that the players are not happy, the game is broken and the balance team need to be replaced " thank you for your time, you did an awesome job ( cough), it was a pleasure" then we can start to have descent solutions.

In the particular case of poptarts they are close to the solution but yet again too dumb to do it correctly. The game needs a cone of fire:
.

I have to disagree on both counts. I find that most players I come in contact with are relatively happy with the game now, they just think it could be better.

On your second point I think a cone of fire solution is terrible. I want my weapons to hit where I am them with no RNG input. There is another way of doing it though. Lasers are not a problem and AC2's are not a problem because their damage can easily be spread around. Make larger ballistics burst weapons (instead of one shell for full damage) and make PPC's spread their damage a bit and you have largely solved the problem while still allowing players to benefit from having good aim.

[Xie Belvoule]

If you have issues with poptarting now, your just a baddie who hangs out.......

Edited by Xie Belvoule, 25 October 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Don't have a huge issue with poptarts but I do agree that prolonging the loss of accuracy for a second or two after JJs stop is a good idea. It's a significant, powerful advantage that goes way beyond the improved maneuverability. JJ in a brawl drastically extends your life expectancy considerably over those who don't have JJs. For 2 or at most 4 tons you get a phenomenal advantage.

Then again, it's sorta like ECM. Weighs very little, gives an absurdly out of proportion advantage and is only available on certain chassis. That seems to be a back-handed approach to balancing.

[Poerisija]

Jump-snipe isn't a problem. ****** maps are. Main culprit here is CANYON NETWORK. The _MOST_ usually occuring map (it's about 50/50 split between this and Terra Therma) and it highly favours jump-sniping. In fact, you're heavily penalized if you DON'T have jumpjets. Problem goes away if we have mapvoting or map-blacklist.

[Roland]

Azoic23, on 25 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

The forums say your join date is when you first post. I have been playing the game since early closed beta. Thanks but nice try.

I'm pretty sure the date is when the account is created.

[ArmageddonKnight]

ofc this game will exventualy turn to poptart online, thats what happend to previose MW games that didnt have any effective countermeasure.

MWO has very little in the way of countermeasures to anything. That why we have 'AlphaWarrior Online', 'PoptartWarrior Online' , 'Lightmech Warrior Online'. etc etc.

The high alpha builds have no hardpoint restrictions to stop it.
The poptarts have no 'effective' JJ drawbacks to stop it
Light mechs dont have proper hit detection to stop them (not thhe light mechs fault btw, this is down to the hit detection overall, it cant handle fast things)*

Bassicaly...welcome to MWO,, this is PGI and this is how things are ..deal with it.


* tested this a couple days ago, piloted a trail spider for 2 days ...I owned bassicaly, poeple couldnt hit me unless i ****** up, resulting in my kil lrate being higher than in Heavy mechs and Assualt mechs, which is stupid.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 25 October 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[KhanHeir]

Xie Belvoule, on 25 October 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

If you have issues with poptarting now, your just a baddie who hangs out.......

I love Kong artwork....

Here have something new.....









The one on the left is the 10th week of 2013 march, Friday to be exact. The one on the Left? 23rd week of friday 2013.

The maps are set to " days " and on " deaths "

You would figure with a 12 v 12 we'd see a spike in deaths. My favorite part is the out of bound deaths south, that gives you a nice control group, we've dropped like four times the players.

Interesting stuff.

[Sandpit]

Christof Romulus, on 25 October 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I have another way... a... better way...

Technically, jump jets are meant to generate heat.

PGI likes increasing heat penalties...

What I'm trying to say is, mechs should take CT damage over time as long as they are not in contact with terrain. - Just kidding =P

But seriously, since JJ's are supposed to generate great deals of heat ... so why don't they?

Not that TableTop rules apply here, but:

Jumping at all generates 3 heat minimum.
Extended jumping (over 3 hexes) generates heat = distance traveled.

So, at minimum, for MechWarrior Online, jumping should generate heat like a medium laser being constantly fired until the JJ's turn off. I know that doesn't sound like much, and I know everyone is thinking that won't stop people from hop-scotching, but it does open up tactical advantages, as it would help hurt those who try to jump to avoid shots when not in cover, and increases the likely hood of shutting down after the "tart" - which does open them up for counter attacks.

If you're going to take TT rules then take them all, not just the ones that support your idea. JJ's in TT are very manueverable. You can not only move vertically with them but horizontally as well AND turn while in the air.