87 replies to this topic

[D04S02B04]

Erm, you need to chill. Your emotions are getting the better of your logical arguments and you've taken the points I'm discussing completely out of context.

I can address those points you've raised if you like, in a PM but otherwise it has derailed the thread.

EDIT: http://mwomercs.com/...5-fuerchtegott/
Here i fuerchtegott's profile and if you look up the thread further, u can see the points he has made about the coolshot.

Edited by D04S02B04, 25 October 2013 - 10:17 PM.

[Levon K]

OP is arrogant.

Bro, play this game for a year, then come back and read your own post.

[Fuerchtegott]

ElementalFury, on 25 October 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

So how much do I have to pay to win against everyhting?!

Yor are a paradox. Your mind will tell you you are allways a winner and you ask intelligoent questöns.
PGI tells you everyone can pay.

Truth. You owned me bro. xD

[Deathlike]

This thread is bad, and you should feel bad.

I wish I had more to say at this moment, but all I have is this.

Whining is natural, and some of us do a lot more of it than we'd like to admit.

I would like to think newbies would watch and learn from better players than themselves, but that doesn't always happen.

I would like to believe that when they are told to do or not do something, they would follow directions, but I've tried to herd sheep like that and that has failed miserably time and time again.

Also, virtually most of the stuff that you could pay for, isn't really P2W, more like Pay to Grind Less. I'm not fond of the current rewards system and I'll probably continue to complain about it, but whatever PGI decides to do with the system isn't always helping people want to do microtransactions in the form of buying mechbays.

I would like to think that PGI would finish up creating tutorials so that player retention increases, but meh, it has been complained about since the beginning.

In any case.... why so serious?

[Fuerchtegott]

@D04S02B04

Some are only intellectual able to accept a literall p2w button concept, I woudn't bother talking to those.

Or they are so worse, that a good player never needs the advantage a coolant would give him against them, so they don't get the concept.

It's like 2 100 meter runners, one makes it in 10 seconds, the other in 9.
if we give the one who needs ten seconds a 11 meter headstart (aka coolant flush) he will win but for some thats a fair game. ;-)

My initial point was, that mwo is for numerous reasons not competive at all, so every thought in that direction is useless, but not truthless.

[GRiPSViGiL]

You cannot consider this game Pay to win whatsoever. There is nothing in the game you can buy for real money that will give you an advantage over someone who doesn't spend real money. The rest of your post is subjective based on your own crazy thinking.

[TheNose]

GRiPSViGiL, on 26 October 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

You cannot consider this game Pay to win whatsoever. There is nothing in the game you can buy for real money that will give you an advantage over someone who doesn't spend real money. The rest of your post is subjective based on your own crazy thinking.

Just because you can't follow his thought it isn't crazy.
For you, sure it is. :-)

[TheNose]

Marack Drock, on 26 October 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

fuerchtegott if MWO is non competative then you just said skill has no meaning there. But in your own words, if someone is so skilled they can kill in one head shot every time (that is skill) and they never loose they can't get the P2W. You know why cause skill has the advantage. Head Shots win over MC, Real Money, C-bills Every time.

Maybe Fuerchtes english is to worse und you haven't understood his point.
MWO is for many reasons not really competive, there he is absolute right.

And if it someday is competive, then the player with the coolant will win.

It doesn't matter today, when the only goal in the game is to grind for as many mechs in your bays as you like, but when that changes and two high skilled players with limited amount of time face each other, of course the one with payed flush and whatever than will be available for mc has the advantage. Maybe not in a single match, but over time the advantage will show.

But I won't explain other peoples posting anymore, my time is to limited, only 80 years left, if I'm in a methusalem way lucky.

pS. In my opinion MWO doesn't need those items for monetization, the player base is willing enough to pay for vanity items and to back the franchise, so it is at all a very stupid decision by pgi to give us those things in the first place. (and it hurts BattleTech!)

[D04S02B04]

@Fuerchtegott & TheNose

Yes it's like we're barking up the wrong tree. I'm just going to let this thread die with this final post. Thanks for your inputs.

Reply to Marack in Spoiler.

Spoiler

Marack Drock, on 26 October 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

I play less than an hour a day. Yet I can score kills on mechs 20 tons bigger than me and I never by Coolant. Also the monetization of those items makes it more realistic. The original MW games after every level you get coolant for that mech no price no nothing. In the real world you'd pay big bucks.

Spider (35 ton mech) can kill an Atlas (100 ton).
Centurion (50 ton mech) can kill an Atlas (100 ton)

Your point being?

Marack Drock, on 26 October 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Skill always has a factor in all games. With 2D top games it is strategy. When it is 3D FPS it is observation, decision, and the ability to use the terrain and your weapons wisely. MWO it is heat guaging while attacking (no need for coolant if you have smarts enough to watch the heat), terrain, and knowledge. Information is ammunition. If you know thenemy you know how to win.

I did admit in some cases yes it is P2W. And to some degree it is true all around. But skill always factors in. Paying to get stuff won't help you hit the enemy. Yes if you can hit them it does factor in but really how is a hero mech (aside from the C-bill bonus) any different from a mech you made? If get a Highlander and modify it to the same specifications as its Hero Heavy Metal counterpart, how are they different? Same armor, same weapons, same everything. Difference C-bill, and paint job.

To some degree MWO isn't competative but if that is the case wasn't MW4 Mercs and MW2 Mercs the same way. Buy the biggest badest stuff and boom you win. So why hate MWO for being like every other merc MW game? and D04. You basicly said you must become addicted to get good. remember WELCOME TO YOUR SECOND JOB!!! That was kinda saying get adicted or you'll suck.

Learn comprehension. Read what Fuerchtegott has said and I've said nothing about addiction. I was simply calculating the time it would take to get those things. You can sum up your hours via the stats page and the amount of time spent will be the same at approximately 90% confidence interval.

Marack Drock, on 26 October 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Plus the coolant flush is entirely fair. Paying 40,000 C-bills for coolant is nice. And if you bought it all it means is that you were smart enough to have backup equipment. Coolant is not unfair and is not in anyway the cause of P2W. All it means is. If you buy it you have sense.

TheNose to address the MWO is not competative. Well if it wasn't no MW game was. It is exactly the same except this time there are people who think to play against. Not stupid AI which is easily overpowered cause they can't customize a mech. Sure MWO is still primitive grind game right now but give it time.

If P2W is real then no MW game was not P2W or get the biggest stuff to win. Just get a big Atlas or Daishi with a bunch of lasers and coolant and win!

Well its not like that anymore. How does coolant help you when you have a Spider going 109 KPH attacking you Atlas which can't even turn at a third that rate? Not much. I've seen Spiders eat assault mechs alive with their lasers cause they are so fast you can hit them. But if you have a keen eye and an amount of skill you can still kill them.

1. I think we're all discussing the MC version of the coolant flush.

2. TheNose and Fuerchtegott are talking about competitiveness in a very different fashion which... most competitive players understand...

3. Regarding Atlas/Daishi, that's also part of the reason why it isn't competitive. No tonnage limitations.

4. I think we all acknowledge that a spider coupled with HSR has pretty wonky hit registration. Also, 109KPH Spider is easy to hit. It is the ones going at 150KPH that stretches the HSR...

Marack Drock, on 26 October 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Look at WWII. Germany had jet airplanes (First nation in the world to have them) and advanced weaponry. The U.S. was in reality 15 years behind them in technology yet we still won. We did cause we knew their tactics and their numbers. Numbers are for intimidation. Skill is for winning. Who wins a wrestler or a Black Belt Karate Pro. My bet Karate. Big and hulky dosn't insure you win otherwise I'd be talking German or Japanese.

Please do not bring up WW II. You know less about WW II and the politics surrounding it. Moreover TheNose is very likely to be German because of his substitution of "und" for "and". He will know more about his country and the impacts than you do.

It was the Russians who won world war 2 not the combined common wealth forces (yes that is UK, ANZAC, CA, USA & commonwealth forces). Anyone who has researched into the deployment of military forces, the orders of battle etc knows that.

You know nothing about actual military strategy nor have you served as an officer or a non-commissioned officer, let alone a private.

English is not the only language in the world and American English is certainly not the de facto English that is taught in Europe or in Asia.

[Mycrus]

If sirlin got a buck for everytime he was cited in da forumz...

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

I really enjoyed the "playing to win article". As for this thread. I did not read any of it.

[Spawnsalot]

Mycrus, on 28 October 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

If sirlin got a buck for everytime he was cited in da forumz...

He'd *still* be an unlikeable person to play games with.

[Nick Makiaveli]

@ the OP.....Pay to win. Do you have any actual evidence? I mean all I see is you saying it takes time to grind out the c-bills. Cash means less grind. I would say that grinding out the money makes you more dangerous than someone with a CC as you have way more actual experience in your mech. Playing Lights to start has made me a better player (still not good, just better) since I had to pay attention or die, move or die.

Also, those numbers are if you have ONE mech. If you have two, you can choose to not spectate, and jump in the other mech and get back to playing. Sure you miss out on some assists etc, but if you get ganked early or know you didn't shoot many mechs, you can boost your earnings significantly by running a second or third mech.


As to all those expenses you talk about, if you just want to master a single mech (for example I have the Raven 3L mastered) I didn't upgrade the 2X and 4X. Sure I tweaked weapons etc, but those are things I could keep and use later. Once I got the 4X to Elite, I stripped and sold it. Then Elite on the 2X and sold it. By then I had gotten Sarah's Jenner, so I did the same with two other Jenners. I've sold one Jager, but think I will hang on to the two I still have, at least until I get a Cat then I may sell the missile one.

Point being, if you aren't keeping/mastering the mech, why upgrade it? If those 3.5 million in upgrades aren't going to pay themselves back, with interest, why spend it? You are taxing yourself for no good reason.

Seriously, as Marack says above, if you aren't having fun playing, why are you playing? I have a "life" as you call it, ie married, house, kid etc so no I don't have 42 mechs mastered. 2 actually. But I have fun playing, even when I am grinding out my Locusts in preparation for using the Phoenix one to get me some LPs!!!

[J0anna]

D04S02B04, on 26 October 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

It was the Russians who won world war 2 not the combined common wealth forces (yes that is UK, ANZAC, CA, USA & commonwealth forces). Anyone who has researched into the deployment of military forces, the orders of battle etc knows that.

You know nothing about actual military strategy nor have you served as an officer or a non-commissioned officer, let alone a private.

Well since I was a commissioned officer, I guess I do know a thing or two about military strategy and/or military history (which I have studied). The notion that it was Russia that won WW2 and not the allied forces is incomplete at best. While it is true that the USSR forces greatly outnumbered the rest of the allied forces. They produced more artillery and armor that the US, and some of the most stunning victories (Stalingrad and Kursk) involved Soviet forces exclusively and had little outside help. You many wish to look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II , look closely at ALL production.

However, the destruction of Army Group Center in 1944 would not have happened had the US not motorized the Soviet Army (almost 80% of all motorized transport in the Soviet army had US engines). Additionally, had the US not completely neutralized the Luftwaffe, and unrelentingly attacked Germany’s strategic production, the stunning soviet victories of 1944 and 1945 would have been much less so. Stalin repeatedly begged the allies to open a second front as even he recognized the value of splitting Germany’s forces. Did you know that almost 80% of all the fuel oil used by the allies (including the USSR) passed through the Delaware River? In the battle of Tunisia, the US/British forces captured 230,000 German and Italian prisoners, (remember when the 6^th army was trapped in Stalingrad they had 265,000 men (German, Romanian and Italian and less than that surrendered), ironic that Stalingrad is heralded as such a monumental victory, while Tunisia is a footnote. Oh, and lets not forget that on November 8^th, the majority of Luftflotte 4 was withdrawn from Stalingrad to fight the Allied Landings in North Africa – significantly shifting air superiority over Stalingrad to the USSR. Finally, remember that Russia concentrated on Germany exclusively, while the US was left to fight Germany and Japan. The US may have had a “Germany First” strategy, however that does not diminish the fact that almost 6 months to the day, the US stopped all of Japan’s offensive potential with a stunning victory at Midway. Nor does it include the fact that from the ashes of Pearl Harbor, the US built the largest Navy in the world, larger than all the other allied countries combined. Let’s not forget that the Soviet Armies at the end of WW 2, contained almost 500,000 women as their male population had been decimated. They had truly reached the end of their formidable manpower reserves. And as a final note, historians might debate the impact of the soviet’s attack on Japan on August 8^th of 1945, yes it was the final straw that ‘broke the camel’s back’ that forced Japan to accept “unconditional surrender” (many in Japan had been hoping the USSR would mediate a peace with the US, the USSR attack crushed that hope), the fact remains that Japan’s ability to wage war was over, the US, almost alone, but forever grateful for our allies, won the war in the Pacific.

While I do not doubt that Russia would have defeated Germany, the fact that WW2 lasted as short as it did was entirely because of the combined allied forces.

[Piney II]

Nick Makiaveli, on 29 October 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Seriously, as Marack says above, if you aren't having fun playing, why are you playing? I have a "life" as you call it, ie married, house, kid etc so no I don't have 42 mechs mastered. 2 actually. But I have fun playing, even when I am grinding out my Locusts in preparation for using the Phoenix one to get me some LPs!!!

^^^^This.

[Kazly]

D04S02B04, on 25 October 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

....the best way to optimise your performance/win streak is to pay.....

Sorry, but in my opinion, a pay to win game does not offer other avenues to 'win' as you yourself suggested.

Kids these days. Haven't they heard that half the fun is getting there?

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

While I agree with some of what the OP said, 43 days and you can tell people what to do to win?

I agree that MWO is full of issues and trolls.

I do have to say P2W isn't right, more like not F2P. Eventually you have to spend money on mechbays, and you have to spend money if you can't invest the time to level things up and buy new mechs with Cbills. The rest of it he has points hidden in the wall o text that I can agree with to a point, but again been in the game since September and now you can give advice on how to be good at this game. That's a little audacious don't you think?

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Marack Drock, on 30 October 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

The allies were the deciding forces in the war along with Russia. We couldn't win without USSR and Britain and they couldn't win without us.

One Pug can make a difference! Super Pugs can win it all! I'm sure only one of them could have won the entire war!

[Zongoose]

D04S02B04, on 24 October 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Conclusion
Being able to have multiple mechs to deal with the current players online at that point in time is important. I have loadouts for dealing with Light Mech Wolfpacks, Long Range Meta, Gauss Snipers etc. You name it, I have a counter. Play that counter, you win, simple as that.

Come back after you have spent a little while longer in MWO, maybe actually made your way up to the higher ELO brackets and try this post again. You can win against almost any opposition in any mech, regardless of the builds and weight difference. Your build is secondary to your battlefield awareness, positioning and teamwork. If I can rack up multiple kills and 500+ damage in a Locust 5v with machine guns and a medium laser then the mech really isn't the defining factor. I can do this by being smart about who I target and by exploiting the flow of battle.

It's not a case of pay to win, grinding to get the right gear or any of that {Scrap} about having a counter. 99% of the time it comes down to pilot skill and teamwork (even in a PUG drop, get a good team and watch the rewards roll in).

[Chavette]

They should make the title one of the tips on the loading screen... ha!