171 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

A few interview clips I've heard from PGI regarding Clan mechs has me quite concerned. Really there are two key things that have brought the major alarm to me:

• 1st: It is likely everyone will be able to own Clan mechs, not just Clan players, and that they will be arriving before the Clans are even a playable faction / factions exist in CW.
  
• 2nd: Clan mechs won't be "more powerful" than Inner Sphere 'mechs. More on that below.

As to the 2nd.. there is only two possible outcomes for that statement:




One, PGI is horribly, horribly wrong (lack of competitive testing we've often vocalized against from the start) and Clan 'mechs will be vastly more powerful just due to the nature of things like 2-slot DHS, reduced slot usage for Endo, XLs that don't kill the 'mech, etc.

Second, PGI is right and they nerf Clan mechs so badly that they are no longer Clan mechs in anything except skin.

.. assuming the Second doesn't come to pass, but the first does (which in my opinion is FAR more likely due to the nature of them), here's where I have an issue: If Clan mechs are even moderately more powerful than IS mechs, and everyone is allowed to buy them, you've just thrown out the usefulness of the entire 'mech library.

While the cynical might suggest that this is to make us buy brand new 'mechs ASAP and "upgrade", I don't really think that's the intent: But that is precisely what will happen if this is allowed. It will mean a short term cash boost for PGI no doubt, but in the end, it will utterly break the game if left unrestricted. I doubt there will be a % clantech limit or anything like that in any given drop, after all.

Basically every 'mech you own right know, including your Phoenix 'mechs, will go straight in the trash pile when the Clan pack comes out unless, again, they are restricted to Clan faction players with some sort of other balancing mechanic (asymmetrical tonnage/players/something!). There will be literally zero reason to drive a Shadow Hawk if the Shadow Cat is available that does everything stronger, faster, and better in a 10 ton lighter package, period. Again, even if the guns aren't terribly OP, unless they completely rechange all of the weights & crits... they are going to be OP in other ways.

Anyway, I would be more than alright with a handful of exceptions - allowing the very top ranked players in the NPC-run factions to run Clan tech, or perhaps leaders of mercenary units running Clan tech wouldn't bother me much, but again, if they allow anyone to drop Clan mechs as any other mech, it will outright crash the "mech economy."

Thus this petition to keep Clan mechs in the hands of Clan players and vice versa, finding another way to balance Clan vs IS than "both sides can own all the mechs." I want the IS 'mechs to stay viable in this game and if players have the option for both chassis, it is outright impossible.*

* Before anyone brings up MW4, I would like to strongly remind everyone that in 3068+ the IS has gained a LOT of new technologies that helped dramatically we don't have right now. Even then in Living Legends a solid Clan light cost roughly the same resources an IS Heavy, so were a rarity on the field because of that. Also in Mech4, we only ran puretech in Leagues; in pug games most people put Clan tech on the IS chassis, making the tech base moot. So it's worth noting where past games went wrong/right on this, and why it would be in particular disastrous for MW:O with it's "owning mechs" mechanics.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 October 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[FearTheAmish]

you only have 2 options... that are kinda the same. Personally i think Clan Mechs should just be different flavors not OP insanity like TT.

[Roland]

Vic, no offense, but the idea that being the leader of a Merc unit should entitle you to using stuff that normal players cannot is pretty nonsensical.

[Victor Morson]

Roland, on 29 October 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

Vic, no offense, but the idea that being the leader of a Merc unit should entitle you to using stuff that normal players cannot is pretty nonsensical.

I meant in Merc vs Merc matches, allowing one pilot on each side to field a Clan mech would fit pretty well with the universe. But if you allow 12 Clan mechs, that is all we will ever see.

Basically I was thinking from a CW standpoint. A bit of a spit-balled idea, really, but I just want to prevent a "Clan pack" coming out with, say, a Firemoth, Shadow Cat, Timberwolf and Daishi that just flat out would replace the entire inventory; but I don't mind very, very low numbers of crosstech.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 October 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

this problem boiling down to Clan doing too well against IS is something i've always thought about and so whilst on the topic of CC's Intelligent hitboxes i proposed this.

GalaxyBluestar, on 30 September 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

as we know the start of these problems was realised by the community when the stalker replaced the awesome. thus polls sprung up about reducing catapults and awesomes sizes and make the stalker bigger. this too is down to hitboxes as well. over time we've seen trebs kintaro's quickdraws awesomes etc suffer for hitboxes and scaling. remember pics like this?




we know that bigger size mechs suffer HEAVILY in combat along with their hitboxes... would this not be the perfect counter for CLAN TECH? balance the equipment with mechs that are proportoinally BIGGER than IS counterparts? lets see...


what a fearsome bunch but lets see what they look like against IS mechs...



OMG they're barns compared to some IS mechs, surely big overgrown bullet magnets will counter the tech. we've seen it work on kintaro's etc huge hitboxes don't compensate well for "superior firepower", being this easy to hit is a serious drawback. would it counter clan tech? well it would be best to implement it like this and if clanners are still op THEN we can nerf the equipement to balance.

so if the clans were hindered like the awesome with massive hitboxes that any ***** called CT out, just how OP would the clans be? seems like a fair trade off superior equipment vs superior chassis profiles which we know counts for a lot in this game.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 29 October 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[Roland]

Honestly, I think they are really gonna have to just nerf the {Scrap} out of clan technology.

In every incarnation, it has been impossible to balance against inner sphere technology. Even in the original board game.

It was originally created to be better, and sell new source books to battletech players. It was never designed to be balanced.

If you want to introduce clan tech, and have it be balanced, then you basically need to make it totally different from what it was designed to be.

[FupDup]

GalaxyBluestar, on 29 October 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

this problem boiling down to Clan doing too well against IS is something i've always thought about and so whilst on the topic of CC's Intelligent hitboxes i proposed this.



so if the clans were hindered like the awesome with massive hitboxes that any ***** called CT out, just how OP would the clans be? seems like a fair trade off superior equipment vs superior chassis profiles which we know counts for a lot in this game.

Your scale does definitely kill off Clan lights and mediums (and perhaps the heavies, too) as intended, but it might make the Dire Wolf and Warhawk even more obnoxious than the Stalker already is.



In general, I'm getting kind of tired of all these Clan threads. PGI is gonna do what PGI is gonna do. End of story. These threads all basically boil down to "if I was in charge, this is how I'd implement the Clans...". All we can do is wait for the invasion and metarape to whichever side PGI makes stronger than the other--there is no way in heck that IS vs Clan matches will have a roughly equal chance of victory for either side. One will inherently win more often than the other. The only thing that we don't yet know is which side will be the stronger one.

Edited by FupDup, 29 October 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Asymmetrical balancing works very well.

Living Legends did manage that pretty well; if you setup a Clan vs IS match, you could end up with:

Clans - 5 High Tier lights/mid tier mediums, 5 high-tier mediums or mid-tier heavies, 2 mid-tier assaults
vs
IS - 4 High Tier lights/mid tier mediums, 4 high tier heavies, 4 high tier heavies / mid tier assaults

Just as one example amongst any, but the result was very, very well balanced Clan vs IS. If they keep the two techs faction restricted and do not allow crossover, they can work around this; otherwise it will once again repeat history and exist only to sell mechs.

[KAT Ayanami]

I actually like how Victor thinks and I agree with the last few topics he has started.

I think Clan Mechs SHOULD (and again, I said "should") be for clanners. Period. This way you can fight 12 IS mechs vs 10 CLAN mechs. Like they do on the books, where the clans send less troops to make the fight more fair.

However, many people (me included) will complaint about this because they will want to jump from chassis to chassis.... so I do not know.....

[Roland]

Against level one tech, clan tech absolutely obliterates inner sphere stuff, even 12v10. It isn't even close.

On top of that, you have all kinds of clan honor nonsense which is impossible to implement in game.

And even with all of those extra restrictions, the clans basically mopped the floor with the inner sphere until they ran into ComStar fielding star league era technology.

A madcat can carry two erppcs, which do 15 damage each and only weigh 6 tons, and a hundred lrms which have no minimum range, and can run over 75kph.

That mech isn't balanced by 1.2 inner sphere mechs . that thing could kill a lance of inner sphere mechs on its own.

[Sybreed]

so huh Vic, you're proposing that only players in units, such as yourself, be allowed to play Clans?

How about no. Some of us don't have the time and/or friends required to play MWO in organized units and shouldn't be penalized for that.

edit: read your 2nd post. Okay, so that's not what you said, fine. PGI should make matches 8 vs 12 when clans come in.

Edited by Sybreed, 29 October 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[FupDup]

Roland, on 29 October 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

Against level one tech, clan tech absolutely obliterates inner sphere stuff, even 12v10. It isn't even close.

On top of that, you have all kinds of clan honor nonsense which is impossible to implement in game.

And even with all of those extra restrictions, the clans basically mopped the floor with the inner sphere until they ran into ComStar fielding star league era technology.

A madcat can carry two erppcs, which do 15 damage each and only weigh 6 tons, and a hundred lrms which have no minimum range, and can run over 75kph.

That mech isn't balanced by 1.2 inner sphere mechs . that thing could kill a lance of inner sphere mechs on its own.

One important thing we should note about the lore portrayal of teh Clanz was that both sides were using sub-optimal stock builds that were often quite gimpy--even the Clan ones (i.e. Mad Cat carried MG ammo in the CT for the specific purpose of making the mech slightly easier to kill, Warhawk that could never ever fire more than 3 of its weapons without shutting down or suidicing via ammo explosion, Warhawk carrying FF instead of Endo, Adder with a Flamer hard-wired into it instead of something useful, Hellbringer with the armor level of a Jenner, etc.).

Here in MWO's conditions, I would actually bet that an Inner Sphere team of min-max custom poptarts would wreck any Clan stock team without much effort. Of course, this doesn't factor in custom designs for the Clans, which will be a lot better than stock naturally. We can already see 3-4 Gauss, UAC/40, SSRM24, LRM 80 (being used in close quarters brawling) and other "cheesy" loadouts coming from a mile away.

It'll all come down to how much/how little PGI nerfs the individual weapons, and how badly they mess up hitboxes and scale on the Clan mechs. Also, if PGI restricts Omnimech customization while leaving Inner Sphere mechs able to customize however they choose, then the Clans are gonna have a bad time (due to hardwired gimp weapons such as Flamers, or not carrying maximum armor stock, not using FF stock, using FF instead of Endo, etc.).

Edited by FupDup, 29 October 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Everyone sites the power/range/damage for Clan weapons but my fear is the weight/slots. Even if the guns are gimped to IS levels, weighing less and taking less space will be enough to still make them massively OP.

For example: The 6 ton LRM/20.

I don't care how hard they try to make them "even" if we allow everyone access to mechs that can mount 6 ton LRM/20s, who is going to use an IS missile boat ever, ever again?

Sybreed, on 29 October 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

so huh Vic, you're proposing that only players in units, such as yourself, be allowed to play Clans?

How about no. Some of us don't have the time and/or friends required to play MWO in organized units and shouldn't be penalized for that.

edit: read your 2nd post. Okay, so that's not what you said, fine. PGI should make matches 8 vs 12 when clans come in.

Oh yeah, positively nothing like that. 8v12 with faction tech locked would be the ideal way to do it.

I was more suggesting with the rest of that stuff (if confusingly worded, apologies) that with the CW rank system, that a handful of players could be allowed to bring Clan tech, but only really one at any given time.. an exceptional rarity.

But yeah, definitely not restricting Clan tech to just units- just restricting it to people logged into a Clan profile and vice versa.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 October 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[Roland]

Victor Morson, on 29 October 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I don't care how hard they try to make them "even" if we allow everyone access to mechs that can mount 6 ton LRM/20s, who is going to use an IS missile boat ever, ever again?

The same folks who run single heat sinks on their mechs.
i.e. nobody other than space hobos who can't afford the better stuff yet.

[FupDup]

Roland, on 29 October 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

The same folks who run single heat sinks on their mechs.
i.e. nobody other than space hobos who can't afford the better stuff yet.

"B-b-b-b-but it's mah playstyle! Its mah preference! It works for me! Herpa derpa!"


@Victor: By the way, each Clan LRM20 is actually only 5 tons. MW4 represented them as 6 tons because they had 1 ton of ammo built in.

Edited by FupDup, 29 October 2013 - 06:48 PM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

I recall another petition...concerning 3PV...

Even if they agreed with this, you'll never hold them to it, they'll tell you what you want to hear and when it suits them, they'll do as they please regardless.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Seeing as it has been a long and arduous road for weapons balancing up to this point what in the hell is CT mechs and equipment going to do to the balancing hell as we have come to know it.

[Zyllos]

There is only one way I see it, in my eyes.

Everything is pure tech, clanners can only pilot clan mechs.

Any other way will just hurt the game.

[Sybreed]

I remember calling the OPness of Clan lrms back in 2012. I wonder if PGI will rework their hardpoints before Clans come in. If not, well, I hope you like getting 80 LRMs in the face at point blank,

[Augustus Martelus II]

I m aint good in MW and Battletech history but i think i did see that IS use clan weapons and learn new tech from them. Like every technological civilization learn from the invaders.

What i would suggest is, the first year we could see some clan weapons on IS mechs but Clan weapons would cost a lot more for IS factions+ updating the chassis so it could fit those weapons. A year later MWO could make (while releasing a HUGE patch) a 6-10 yrs step so we could have access to the new IS technology.

Yeah i can hear some that will scream about this lol but its just a suggestion....Would like to see those RAC/2-5-10-20, heavy ppcs and etc... And all those new chassis. =D