330 replies to this topic

[Amsro]

Damocles69, on 30 October 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

#sadspiders
#happyawesomes/orions

light mechs in general will so MAD after this. possibly cent pilots as well... oh well who need medium mechs anyway?

Actually as a all around pilot, I've stayed out of my spider's while this debacle of OP'ness has been going on.

I'm the happiest pilot as I can return to my spider once the issues are fixed on them. Truly test out the new xl280 in it!!

[Dirus Nigh]

Jman5, on 30 October 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

One thing I would investigate is the amount of "debris" left over when a component is destroyed. In MWO when you hit the debris of a destroyed component only 50% of damage transfers. So if you hit a dead leg, 50% of damage transfers to corresponding side torso.

Sounds good in theory, but in practice you have wildly varying amounts of component debris left over making it either easier or harder to hit a component next to it. The best example would be the centurion's arm debris. It leaves behind these big hulking arm joints that soak up damage and reduce it down to 50%. This is the big reason why centurions are so hard to kill. On the flip side, if you look at the arms of an Awesome they almost completely detach leaving behind almost nothing but clear side torso.

Exactly. This is some thing Ive seen in the game sense I started playing. When you take out an arm or side torso damage transfers to the next component if you hit that location again. Essentially it is doubling the area of the next component. Yes, TT had damage transfer in this manner, however I strongly urge PGI to reevaluate damage transfer. When a component is destroyed it should be taken out completely. If I take out the leg or arm of a mech by doing more damage than needed it should not transfer to another area. If I hit a mech in the knee with an AC20 it should not damage the torso.

I understand that PGI will have to rework the models of the mechs in order to do this, but I think it will be worth it. By making damage non transferable, and removing damaged components completely PGI will be prolonging the life of a mech in a more dynamic way.

[Jess Hazen]

What priority does scale normalization take up in your agenda?

Things will work a lot smother if you guys spend that little extra effort and get it right the first time.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Aym, on 30 October 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Changing CT won't have as much impact on "de-arm"ing a mech as you think. It's basically NEVER worth it to go for the arm, and a smaller CT would only make that more so since the new, larger side torsos are better targets. Changes to hit boxes and then changes to durability for various components would do what you, and many of us, are looking for. I'd like to see more Internal Health so that you're more likely to survive with broken weapons, JJ's, heat sinks, BAP/ECM, etc while also giving some reason to take out an arm before a CT/Side Torso.

i think there were mumblings made about incorporating more shoulders as arms. you're right the system is only going to work if the CT is 55% larger than the head then the ST are 25% larger than the CT and then the legs are 20% larger than the ST then the arms are 5-10% larger than the legs. scale of priority durability with regards to armour points to hitbox scaling ratio.

no doubt paul knows that... doesn't he!?

[Arcturious]

Rashkae, on 30 October 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

PGI, on a related note, when will you fix the "invisible walls" / terrain clipping issues? You know, those many lovely times when you can see a mech (for example, Frozen City, southern cave exit) but your shots are magically blocked by an invisible extension of the cave even though you can see the mech and he can see you just fine?

Rashkae - they already do this every patch. If you take screenshot of the place that was blocking your shot, send it to support@mwomercs.com

When you see a line in the patch notes that says something like: - Multiple map bug fixes

It often refers to places you get stuck, intercept shots etc.

[Drollzy]

Fix the spider...dont test it on your pc with 0 ping... try it on something with 100.

[Drollzy]

Cimarb, on 30 October 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

There definitely needs to be some tweaks to hitboxes, but I think the much bigger issue is how weapons do damage. Lasers, LRMs, MGs and (S)SRMs are all good, but autocannons and (ER)PPCs are the big offenders - they are what cause people to complain about pinpoint damage. Autocannons need to be like large bore MGs, firing a stream of shells that do an equivalent amount of damage over the current cooldown duration - AC5s should do five damage over 2.25 seconds, for example. PPCs should do the same damage, but that damage should be spread like an LBX or SRM is. These changes would drastically help increase TTL for everyone.

Then, having crits to actuators actually cause loss of arm/leg movement, slowed movement, etc and gyro hits cause falling and/or aiming issues, targeting certain body parts would be more worthwhile, instead of the current CT tunnel vision.

[Redacted] They are slugs and plasma their sole purpose is pinpoint damage... They will never be changed because that's how they were designed. Hey why not have LRMS just fire randomly in a 360 arc while your at it... seriously.

Edited by Niko Snow, 31 October 2013 - 11:32 AM.
Removed Ad Hominem

[Thoummim]

I'd like to know a little more about what is fixed/change.

I fear you do thing like carrioncrows suggest : stalker hitbox for every mech + pelvis are now leg. And I hate that idea, I like the fact that every mech has is own strengh and weakness in term of hitbox that directly impact how I build my mech. Concerning the "balls" area to me the pelvis being a part of CT is logic (in real life you wont protect your balls if you turn your upper body) and force me to run in a near perpendicular direction if I want to effectively torso twist instead of just mindlessly charging, and that change will favor heavier mech over light and medium who are already leg regulary.

Edited by Thoummim, 31 October 2013 - 01:30 AM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Thoummim, on 31 October 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

in real life you wont protect your balls if you turn your upper body

Yes, but in real life getting shot in the glutes would also impact the back of your body foremost, not the front. Currently if you shoot a mech in its rear pelvis, it counts as a front CT hit no matter what.

Edited by Arnold J Rimmer, 31 October 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[ShinVector]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 31 October 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

Yes, but in real life getting shot in the glutes would also impact the back of your body foremost, not the front. Currently if you shoot a mech in its rear pelvis, it counts as a front CT hit no matter what.

It does ??? Gee... Been pew pew pewing my lasers into the ar_ses of many mechs and I am pretty sure it is killing their rear CT.

I find this butt shooting argument a bit flawed.. A mech can choose to full protect his CT by fully twist everything including his legs perpendicular to the mech firing at him.
Of course the draw back is that now his approach to the enemy mech is stopped.

Now is this a bad thing ?

They should fix hit reg first if this hit box thing is another issue. Hmmmm..
But PGI will do what it wants, breaking other things along the way..
How's DX11 by the way ? Hear it is the key to UI 2.0 and CW or what on...

Edited by ShinVector, 31 October 2013 - 01:47 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

cdrolly, on 30 October 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

Seriously your an didiot! They are slugs and plasma their sole purpose is pinpoint damage...

Why do you think that is? Where do you get the idea?

I haven't read the developers weapon design memo on this.

I think the reasons they are "pinpoint" and lasers are not is simply because the devs knew from MW:LL that lasers with a beam duration worked well as a balancing tool against the previous mechwarrior games where they were point damage and hitscan, but they didn't realize that the biggest advantage was not the hitscan that need to be compensated, but the point damage that caused so much problems. I am not even sure the MW:LL guys realized this fully at the time, but i am not not sure how they implemented ballistics.

[BOWMANGR]

Symbiodinium, on 30 October 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

As has been elegantly stated by Carrioncrows in his thread, most of the hitboxes could use some work. Beyond fixing the ones that are obviously problematic, though, a general shift of hitboxes to shrink the CT, even slightly, would generally be good for the game. Good game design involves having meaningful decisions for players, and smaller CTs would have several side effects:

1) Reducing the draw/strength of high-alpha play as it's more difficult to rapidly punch through the CT, especially in larger mechs.
2 ) A smaller CT means larger side torsos, making XL engines less attractive, so more mechs would run standard engines, creating more interesting choices and variety in mech design.
3) More standard engines means less weight for weapons, and therefore lower alphas.
4) More standard engines would mean larger mechs would tend to be slower, enhancing the difference in speed between size classes, especially heavies vs. mediums, promoting more diverse mech classes.
5) More interesting fights with more decisions and diverse tactics. Instead of simply aiming for the CT and ignoring the rest of the mech it may be a better tactic to de-arm/torso the enemy first. You see this now with Atlases: they very rarely run XLs but have relatively large side torsos already, which are often targeted to defang the mech before finishing it.

(And forgive me if CC or others have covered this!)

I agree with everything you said. The problem is less XL Engines means less grind for the players. I'm not so sure PGI is going to agree with that.
Unfortunately, the Free-to-Play nature of the game is the reason it exists but it is also its bane. Some things that good gameplay logic says should be different will not be fixed because the "make more money" logic prevails.

This is also the reason why Double Heatsinks vs Single Heatsinks will never be fixed. It's working as intended, as a c-bill sink to make you buy things with MCs to get rid of the grinding.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Fixing the Awesome would be, err... Awesome.

Good suggestions made already about making the arms cover more of the shoulder area to provide a damage sink.

[SgtKinCaiD]

Can you tell us which is the first mech to have its hitboxes redefined ?

[Abivard]

Arm hit boxes should extend into the shoulder.

Pelvis/abdomen Area should be split into right/left leg areas, these babies should have legs all the way up to their Chests!
You should shrink ALL the torso areas! Front and rear!


Fix mech scale as well, all the mediums are to large and to many heavy and assaults are to tiny for their class/weight.

Edited by Abivard, 31 October 2013 - 03:31 AM.

[arkani]

Yay,......

a good way to do it would be : http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

or

go for "agressive changes" like you said you are going to do in the weapons..... oh wait .. that didn't happen.!!!
Probably we will just get "ghost hitboxes" like in the weapons, right??.....yeah.... that's gonna work well !!!!

Oh well, there goes my hopes down the drain...sigh!!

(Yes in case you missed it, i am being sarcastic, because reasoning doesn´t work)

Edited by arkani, 31 October 2013 - 03:29 AM.

[Mighty Spike]

Yes! Sounds good. Have some open Bills with some Spider Pilots

[FupDup]

Amsro, on 30 October 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Actually as a all around pilot, I've stayed out of my spider's while this debacle of OP'ness has been going on.

I'm the happiest pilot as I can return to my spider once the issues are fixed on them. Truly test out the new xl280 in it!!

At this point there's the possibility that Spiders wont be "fixed" in the proper sense, but "fixed" in the Raven kind of sense where they articificially enlarged hitboxes in the places that weren't the problem. On the Raven in particular, the side torsos were a problem that caused them to have good damage spreading abilities, but PGI decided to enlarge the legs instead of cutting back the side torsos. We can probably expect something similar for Spiders until told otherwise.

[NuclearPanda]

I'm voting for you to please take a long hard look at Awesomes (I love those linebacker mechs!) They definitely need some attention to the hitboxes.

Also.....

PLEASE FIX SRM HIT DETECTION!!!!!

Edited by NuclearPanda, 31 October 2013 - 04:33 AM.

[Spyder228]

Yeah, let's baloon the Spider hitboxes because the hitreg sucks! Pull the ole Raven fix out of the toolbox. Treat the problem, not the symptom.