330 replies to this topic

[Tekadept]

Yeah all this effort tweaking hitboxes, then if they ever actually fix HSR and your shots start connecting more consistently they will have to retweak again.

[ShinVector]

Tekadept, on 24 November 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

Yeah all this effort tweaking hitboxes, then if they ever actually fix HSR and your shots start connecting more consistently they will have to retweak again.

That's is an... IF... *DOH !!

[Noober]

I'm sure the devs are clued in on this, but: beware of shrinking the centre torso - the large CT is what gives a lot of mechs XL engine viability.

I expect some of the problem is actually one of mech *profile* - the best example is the Awesome (and now Thunderbolt) are barn doors - the mech as a whole is difficult to miss.

The Dragon has an extensive side profile and the Cicada has a prominant front profile from above (Jenner and Locust have a similar issue, but mitigated by their smaller size).

Even if you change the side of the 'nose' to being side torso, this is still an easy target. At what extent is a side torso expansion going to help? Will it just end up a nerf to the armour of the most hit location on that mech?

I'd be interested to know how you (the Devs) are informing the changes being made - what kind of in-game data are you using? Do you know the exact locations (within a hitbox) people are hitting, or are you using information on component blowouts / state of mech at death?

[JamesRK86]

Noober, on 24 November 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

I'm sure the devs are clued in on this, but: beware of shrinking the centre torso - the large CT is what gives a lot of mechs XL engine viability.

One of the reasons this is needed is because of XL viability. they are TOO viable.

[Kattspya]

Pleaso do not ruin the centurion. Consider it a quirk.

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

I am prepared to be a hypocrite and say PLEASE leave the Cent as is! That being said, if this is what has to happen because the Awesomes were fixed, I'm willing to accept that.

[EoRaptor]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 26 November 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

I am prepared to be a hypocrite and say PLEASE leave the Cent as is! That being said, if this is what has to happen because the Awesomes were fixed, I'm willing to accept that.

The cent has invisible geometry that prevents it from taking head damage from the front, and the arms continue to 'exist' after being blown off, allowing them to absorb damage indefinitely.

Both of these are bugs with the model that need to be fixed. I know this will probably 'kill' the only really viable medium, but if we are ever going to see long term fixes for the problems with mech destruction in a certain weight class, we need to have the mech models behave correctly.


More generally, I'm not sure these fixes are really going in a viable direction. Narrowing the CT to prolong life is fine, but widening the side torsos to do it just prolongs death, it doesn't prolong viability. Piloting an Atlas or Orion is now just a matter of losing the ballistic torso (and accompanying arm) and then standing around while the enemy drills through the rest of your armour. I live longer, but it's not much of a life. I think pulling the arm hit box in to cover more the shoulder should be strongly considered if these mechs get a second pass.


P.S.: The Atlas has missiles on the other side, true, but with SRM hit detection being so poor, they aren't a really good combat weapon. Losing the ballistic side is crippling. Same thing with the Orion

P.P.S. A quick and dirty fix for problems like this across all mechs is to unbind the armour from per section totals to just an overall total that can be allocated as needed. This means if I want to strip the arms and legs and layer it onto my torso, then so be it. I'm still limited by the max armour and the overall tonnage, but just like I now get to choose which part I shoot, I can now choose which part to armour.

[Cimarb]

EoRaptor, on 26 November 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

I know this will probably 'kill' the only really viable medium, but if we are ever going to see long term fixes for the problems with mech destruction in a certain weight class, we need to have the mech models behave correctly.

I agree with most of your post, but you do the entire weight class a disservice with this part. There are many people that absolutely LOVE their mediums, especially the Hunchback and QuickDraw, and the Shadowhawk is by far the most popular mech out of the whole PP package based upon what has been posted in the forums.

Role-based rewards, once implemented fully, are going to really give a boost to the medium class as well, since I think the main reason a lot of people shy away from them now is because they don't earn as much per match.

[EoRaptor]

Cimarb, on 26 November 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

I agree with most of your post, but you do the entire weight class a disservice with this part. There are many people that absolutely LOVE their mediums, especially the Hunchback and QuickDraw, and the Shadowhawk is by far the most popular mech out of the whole PP package based upon what has been posted in the forums.

Role-based rewards, once implemented fully, are going to really give a boost to the medium class as well, since I think the main reason a lot of people shy away from them now is because they don't earn as much per match.

Given that you could have taken a heavy or assault, and that against most lights of equal pilot skill, you would be hard pressed to defeat them, mediums are in a tough place.

Once tonnage limits arrive, I suspect mediums will see much more use, though there is the risk of min-maxing the drop. Role based rewards are a dead end. What could a medium do that couldn't be done by a light or a fast heavy?

[Alaskan Nobody]

EoRaptor, on 27 November 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

What could a medium do that couldn't be done by a light or a fast heavy?

/Troll_on
Die faster than the heavy but slower than the light?
/Troll_off

They do maneuver a little better than the heavies (faster turn/twist rates) but that doesn't mean much right now.

Edit: typo

Edited by Shar Wolf, 27 November 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Cimarb]

EoRaptor, on 27 November 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Given that you could have taken a heavy or assault, and that against most lights of equal pilot skill, you would be hard pressed to defeat them, mediums are in a tough place.

Once tonnage limits arrive, I suspect mediums will see much more use, though there is the risk of min-maxing the drop. Role based rewards are a dead end. What could a medium do that couldn't be done by a light or a fast heavy?

There are a lot of people that do amazing in mediums, just like every other weight class. Just because you do better in assaults doesn't mean someone else couldn't stomp you in a medium. When controlled by a player skilled in that mech, the mechs are very well balanced against each other. Take a Jenner in TT against an Atlas and see how they do - it will be much more one sided than in MWO, I guarantee it.

[EoRaptor]

Cimarb, on 27 November 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

There are a lot of people that do amazing in mediums, just like every other weight class. Just because you do better in assaults doesn't mean someone else couldn't stomp you in a medium. When controlled by a player skilled in that mech, the mechs are very well balanced against each other. Take a Jenner in TT against an Atlas and see how they do - it will be much more one sided than in MWO, I guarantee it.

I'm actually not a very good pilot regardless of what I'm driving. And your basically agreeing with what I said, the survivability of mechs is skewed based on their size and armour. Smaller is more survivable, and once you get over a certain 'size' it's all about armour. Since mediums, heavies and assaults are all so similarly scalled, that gives the edge to tiny lights and armoured heavies/assaults.

Mediums end up big, but low on armour and weapons. The trade off of more speed just isn't enough in the current meta.


In other news, has anybody done any testing of the new hitboxes for dragon/cicada/tebuchet/centurion? I don't own any of those mechs, and we should be at least giving some feedback for any PGI's that are still reading this thread.

Edited by EoRaptor, 05 December 2013 - 06:11 AM.

[Cimarb]

EoRaptor, on 05 December 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

I'm actually not a very good pilot regardless of what I'm driving. And your basically agreeing with what I said, the survivability of mechs is skewed based on their size and armour. Smaller is more survivable, and once you get over a certain 'size' it's all about armour. Since mediums, heavies and assaults are all so similarly scalled, that gives the edge to tiny lights and armoured heavies/assaults.

Mediums end up big, but low on armour and weapons. The trade off of more speed just isn't enough in the current meta.

Just because I used a Jenner and an Atlas in my example doesn't mean I agree with you, and I don't. Smaller is generally quicker, but armor increases pretty inversely to speed, meaning the more armor, the slower you can go. It isn't a perfect linear change, but in general it is true. A medium is pretty quick, but not heavily armored. A heavy is pretty heavily armored, but not as quick. A light and assault fall at either end of that spectrum.

Mediums are quite prevalent in most matches. I see tons of Shadowhawks, quickdraws, and hunchies all over the place, and cicadas and the other mediums are common too. I only PUG, so it may skew my viewpoint compared to yours, but mediums do just as well as any other weight group in skilled hands.

EoRaptor, on 05 December 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

In other news, has anybody done any testing of the new hitboxes for dragon/cicada/tebuchet/centurion? I don't own any of those mechs, and we should be at least giving some feedback for any PGI's that are still reading this thread.

Lol, that's funny. Seriously, it made me laugh out loud.

[Hastur Azargo]

Cimarb, on 05 December 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Mediums are quite prevalent in most matches. I see tons of Shadowhawks, quickdraws, and hunchies all over the place, and cicadas and the other mediums are common too.

Let's not forget that the Quickdraw is actually a heavy

That said, I'm primarily a medium pilot, I love all mediums, I gladly drop with any of them (save for Cicada, which is an oversized light for most intents and purposes), and the biggest problem I observe with the mediums right now is SRM HSR. Other that that, you just have to use a specific mindset of a medium pilot: stay out of trouble, know when to engage, know when you can do something and when you're just asking to be wasted. That's it. Ever since Gauss and PPCs were desynced, mediums are ok, and if we're all correct, next month's gonna see a hero Hunchie (or another medium, at least), and all of us medium pilots are gonna be really happy. ^.^

[Cimarb]

Azargo, on 06 December 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

Let's not forget that the Quickdraw is actually a heavy

Wow, my bad... it is? I thought it was another one of those oversized mediums... lol

[Deathlike]

Cimarb, on 06 December 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Wow, my bad... it is? I thought it was another one of those oversized mediums... lol

Usually that is referred to an "Awesome".

[Hastur Azargo]

Cimarb, on 06 December 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Wow, my bad... it is? I thought it was another one of those oversized mediums... lol

At 60 tons, she's Dragon's sister. Remember how QKD came out the month when a heavy was supposed to be released and everyone expected Orions? Oh, all those "A wild Quickdraw appeared" jokes (actully, in hindsight, I ended up loving QKD more than the Orions).

But yeah, she certainly feels like an oversized medium, both hardpoint and playstyle-wise. The honor of being true oversized medium jump-striker belongs to the soon-to-arrive Griffins though. Can't wait for Dec. 17...

[Felicitatem Parco]

Yay for the update! I like the sound of "due to the number of Mechs being introduced" as a reason to push the hitboxes back a little. At least nobody can complain about the hitboxes being ignored while no new content is released

[Tekadept]

Prosperity Park, on 09 December 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

At least nobody can complain about the hitboxes being ignored while no new content is released

I can.
Perhaps should do the same as EA and Bf4

Quote

Electronic Arts have ordered DICE to stop working on any future expansions for Battlefield 4 until such a time as existing bugs with the game can be fixed

Edited by Tekadept, 09 December 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Deathlike]

Oh god... all of those mechs that are being planned to be "addressed" (BJ, Stalker, Jager, Cataphract), the Jager probably needs it most, and the rest do not.

I can only say the patch with these set of hitbox fixes may be apocalyptic... in terms of the whining.