185 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Thank you DaZur fr proving that intelligent play can be more useful than being the biggest gun!

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 November 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Thank you DaZur for proving that intelligent play can be more useful than being the biggest gun!

Sadly... for most folk running around with the biggest gun is a lot more fun that learning how to be productive with the the middling ones.

We are a dying breed my friend...

Edited by DaZur, 04 November 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Wispsy, on 04 November 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

just because you own a lot of mediums does not make them viable in competitive play...
The Shadowhawk is pretty much the only one and only because it has every advantage that you would look for in a mech, which has not been given to any heavies or assaults. Shadowhawk is to mediums like a stalker with jjs would be to assaults. This is why it is just about usable.

I've also seen lots of cents in 12 man matches and vids of league matches due to their screwy hit boxes and decent fire power.

[Vodrin Thales]

DaZur, on 04 November 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

In short... support, harass and hunt...

IMHO the biggest problem with Mediums is the present end-game and the player bases' propensity to try and play them as heavies or lights...

Mediums die quickly because "most" medium pilots try to straight-up battle assaults and heavies when their have neither enough firepower or armor to compete... Or they try to out-light lights and find they are neither fast enough nor present a diminutive enough target profile to avoid most incoming fire...

Mediums are best utilize to support the the assaults, heavies and lights... and when I say support, I mean ranged support... sitting back and supporting the heavies and assaults and or light-hunting to keep them off the the heavies and assaults or providing cover for capping lights...

Depending on your groups drop deck, short ranged support can also be very effective. I've seen mediums with SRM's used very successfully supporting an Atlas heavy brawler group in 12 mans. The key, as you said, is to be in a situation where the mediums are not going to be primary targets and can add their firepower to a heavy group.

[DaZur]

Vodrin Thales, on 04 November 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

Depending on your groups drop deck, short ranged support can also be very effective. I've seen mediums with SRM's used very successfully supporting an Atlas heavy brawler group in 12 mans. The key, as you said, is to be in a situation where the mediums are not going to be primary targets and can add their firepower to a heavy group.

That's the key... Avoid being the primary target.

The hard part is that for every meter you are closer to the furball, that's one meter a Medium is to being drawing into the melee...

I've got a Cent in my bay that is kitted for pure ranged support (2x PPC + a 10 rack of missiles. So long as I hang around the periphery of battles... I can accrue many assists and have routinely rung-up 800+ point damage.

​That said... as soon as my team starts losing assaults and heavies... or the enemy pushes and I don't react fast enough... I'm toast. But that's the nature of the role...

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 04 November 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Sadly... for most folk running around with the biggest gun is a lot more fun that learning how to be productive with the the middling ones.

We are a dying breed my friend...

Sorry man, I am part of the problem. (F)Atlas, Atlas-D-DC are my main rides. Once the Battlemaster is released for Public Consumption, I will learn to drive everyone crazy with on of those.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 November 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Sorry man, I am part of the problem. (F)Atlas, Atlas-D-DC are my main rides. Once the Battlemaster is released for Public Consumption, I will learn to drive everyone crazy with on of those.

LOL! Piloting the assaults and heavies is most definitely not part of the problem... Kitting it with only what the intelligentsia insists is the most viable configuration (FOTM) is. My go-to mech is a heavy so I'm in no position to look down my nose as big-boy pilots.

That said... My -3D is more like a medium than it is a heavy with a 340xl and a paltry 30 point damage.

[Derffe]

Truth be told, I rub my hand actuators in glee when I see assaults when I'm in my medium mech. Nothing like getting behind a Battlemaster and spraying my SRMs all over his back.


That sounded less risque in my head.

[SmithMPBT]

Assaults can do silly damage even with poor piloting which translates to more c-bills. So you see more assaults.

[DaZur]

Derffe, on 04 November 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Truth be told, I rub my hand actuators in glee when I see assaults when I'm in my medium mech. Nothing like getting behind a Battlemaster and spraying my SRMs all over his back.


That sounded less risque in my head.

Premature Mech'ulation?

There's pills for that.

[DaZur]

SmithMPBT, on 04 November 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Assaults can do silly damage even with poor piloting which translates to more c-bills. So you see more assaults.

Point taken and actually your sentiments supports my premise...

Mediums are reasonably viable in the hands of pilots that know how to pilot them. That said... There is an inherent learning curve necessary to proficiently pilot Mediums that most players do not have the inclination to undertake.

In short... It takes let effort to pilot an assault or heavy badly and still do "okay"... than to pilot a Medium well and do "okay".

Instant gratification...

[LordBraxton]

My shadowhawk hunts assaults, I prefer fighting assaults to fighting heavies, I can outmaneuver them much more easily

[Jonathan Paine]

The current state of the matchmaker is pretty subpar. Over the lat few thousand drops there seems to be a frequent occurrence of putting the right mechs into a match, then putting them INTO THE WRONG TEAM. If I bring a shadow hawk, the matchmaker puts another shadow hawk on my team. If I bring a battlemaster, the matchmaker puts a matchmaker on my team.

This plays out even more horrifically when you launch with a team. You all brought locusts? Here, have another bonus three locusts courtesy of the matchmaker. You brought Atlas DDCs? Have another lance of Atlai.

Apart from that, yes, we need some incentive to use mediums and another incentive to bring a smaller mech within the weight class itself. If I knew that bringing a cicada instead of a shadow hawk (15 ton difference) let my buddy bring a jenner instead of a locust, sure! I make the ultimate sacrifice and bring an awesome? Fine, team gets 20 more tonnes to play with compared to the team that opted for an atlas.

As someone who plays an insane amount and play in a 2 to 4 man team most of the time, I am also fine with having tighter restrictions the bigger a team you are part of. How about this: my team and I stick with a tonnage limit and a weight class limit. We agree to ready at least 2 different weight class mechs each, and the match maker gets to pick whatever fits better. Pugs? Pick whatever you want, no restrictions. The match maker will need you to fill and gaps and create balanced matches.

TL;DR?
Current matchmaker broken. Fix it. Implement weight and class restrictions for groups, not for pugs.

[Sandpit]

there's too many threads about there being too much (insert latest and/or oldest bandwagon here)

[DaZur]

Jonathan Paine, on 04 November 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

TL;DR?
Current matchmaker broken. Fix it. Implement weight and class restrictions for groups, not for pugs.

No offense Johnathan but parity in MM is not going to magically fix match results... bad players will still be bad and there is still inequity in chassis configuration.

If / when matches are weight balanced... there will still be complaint regarding inequity of the actual leveraged mechs... In short, all assaults are not created equal and neither are heavies, mediums or lights...

PGI placates the weight-match demands and BV will be next on the docket for those who think that micro-managing is the assurance of perfectly balanced matches.

End-result is beige-box balance mechanics...

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 04 November 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

there's too many threads about there being too much (insert latest and/or oldest bandwagon here)

explained by this.

Quote

Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 November 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Elwood Blues]

Plenty of mechs are in that realm of being good, but just not as good as something else in the same role that is a little or a lot heavier than it.

A weight balancing mechanic will really drive people to be efficient.

It should turn out that taking an all DDC lance will cause the rest of your team to be pretty light. Same will taking all jenners or ravens for your lights. Right now, the locust has no real place. It's fast but so under armored that it's Jenner food. With weight balancing, all of a sudden a 20 ton mech in the hands of a capable pilot can be a great way to shift weight elsewhere.

[Lykaon]

Sandpit, on 03 November 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

No it's a "Oh yay, someone else complaining about somethign using all kinds of fallacies to "strengthen their cause."

If there were "too many assaults" you'd never see anything BUT assaults. If you think there are too many assaults don't pilot one. Don't use the argument of, "Well I have to in order to be competitive" either. I pilot all classes and do just fine. If I can do it, anyone can do it.

I see tons of other classes in the game being used all the time. I see lights, meds, heavies, and assaults. I see a LOT of people (and no I'm not pointing at anyone directly) looking for every reason possible to explain why they lose other than individual skill, tactics, builds, and strategies. I see a LOT of players looking for every scapegoat possible. Let me run you a quick list.
Reasons why players lose

• premades
  
• unfair builds
  
• poptarting
  
• op weapons
  
• nerfed weapons
  
• my team sucked
  
• too many (insert class here)
  
• spiders
  
• lights
  
• my team sucked
  
• premades
  
• matchmaking
  
• elo

That's just off the top of my head of what I've seen over the past 2-3 weeks. Nowhere in there do they look at their own skill and builds.


This thread plays right into that. How many posts are about the matchmaking, elo, and premades in this thread?

Sure a lot of people drive assaults. They're fun to stomp and shoot with and very forgiving to pilot error and poor tactics. Define "too many"? Is 3-4 in a match "too many"? Is 7? 8? 9?

Do you think the game would play any different if there were fewer assaults?

What difference does it make to anyone what someone else pilots in the first place? Why do you care what someone else likes to run around in? Do you go to other games and say "there's too many (inser class here)"? I doubt it. If you dont' like assaults then don't pilot them. You'll see less of them against you.

Now that was a well articulated post I can agree with 100%.

I also pilot mechs of every class and role.I am a generalist rather than a specialist (although my best two mechs in performance are an assault and a light)

However there is a grain of truth in this thread and it's a lack of reason to pilot mechs that are not on the extremes of evasion or absorbtion.

Currently the formula is pretty simple minimize exposure and maximize damage.This can be done either by not being hit while hitting (lights) or dishing enough damage to make the damage recieved in return worth while (assaults) or Poptarting.

Mediums are not fast enough or small enough to use evasion as well as a light (except Cicadas) And heavies lack the fire power to dish as well as an assault (with exception to poptarts and AC heavy mechs like Jaegers and Myromets)

Now in the fluff of the Battletech universe the reason to use mechs was they were the most versatile weapon platform around.And the reason medium mechs were the bulk of those mech forces was costs.Mediums are cheaper to build and cheaper to maintain.

Well we have no economic restrictions in MWo so who cares if a medium should be cheaper it's not good enough at either damage output or evasion to substitute for a light or an assault.

Our maps and player culture support Assault mech use.Many maps are under sized and allow for assault mechs to reach anywhere on the map in short order or we have a player culture of capping is weak and dumb and the only way to play is to fight and in that capacity an assault mech is THE choice.Assault mechs are not hindered by being out of possition on the small maps and on the larger maps the trend of blaming players who choose manuver over brawn as a means of victory reenforces newer players to also chose assault mechs to avoid persecution.

Essentially there really isn't a quantifiable reason not to pilot an assault mech or a light with exception of a few outlying mech designs and builds that are capable of being evasive enough or capable of damaging enough to qualify as not suboptimal.

[Lootee]

Lykaon, on 04 November 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Essentially there really isn't a quantifiable reason not to pilot an assault mech or a light with exception of a few outlying mech designs and builds that are capable of being evasive enough or capable of damaging enough to qualify as not suboptimal.

What he said ^^.

Plus you earn the most C-bills, mech XP and general XP by doing lots of damage, killing stuff, killing stuff that is about to kill your teammates, and blowing stuff off enemy mechs. You don't earn $@!$# for capping points, spotting enemies, narcing things, or distracting enemies.

So basically the game only rewards 1 role in the game: doing lots of damage, blowing parts off enemy mechs, and making them die. Assaults and heavies are the best at this, so it's no wonder why 75% of the team is usually composed of those types of mechs.

[Navy Sixes]

DaZur, on 04 November 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

That's the key... Avoid being the primary target.

The hard part is that for every meter you are closer to the furball, that's one meter a Medium is to being drawing into the melee...

Agreed. While there are a few crazy-a%$ aces out there that can brawl effectively in a medium, the class really shines in a fast-moving skirmish/support role.

I think that when those tonnage limits come down, teams with meds that can support and skirmish and heavies/assaults that can put all that armor up front in the push will do better than teams that waste their precious assaults in support roles, forcing mediums and lights to whither on the front while all of their team's potential armor "prowls the backfield."