128 replies to this topic

[Darth Futuza]

In a way it seems like a pretty valid tactic. You allow the opposing team players to get out of the match more quickly and into a new one, seems like a kindness to me. Or you could go hide somewhere nice and secure and shutdown and make them wait for the 15 minute time out before they can use their mechs again in another match.

Which one would you rather have done to you? I'd opt for suicide. Since running into the middle of 12 healthy mechs with a crippled torso is a completely stupid tactic. Unless they are nicely spreading out for you, or agreeing to one on one trials of grievance, I think I'd suicide.

[Tesunie]

Darth Futuza, on 21 December 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

In a way it seems like a pretty valid tactic. You allow the opposing team players to get out of the match more quickly and into a new one, seems like a kindness to me. Or you could go hide somewhere nice and secure and shutdown and make them wait for the 15 minute time out before they can use their mechs again in another match.

Which one would you rather have done to you? I'd opt for suicide. Since running into the middle of 12 healthy mechs with a crippled torso is a completely stupid tactic. Unless they are nicely spreading out for you, or agreeing to one on one trials of grievance, I think I'd suicide.

If you look at it from the other team though, by suicide, you deny them the C-bills and experience of your kill, making this match less effective. If this became "common" behavior, and everyone started doing that as soon as things looked grim/impossible, then that can quickly mount to players needing to play even more matches to "grind" out enough C-bills for a project, even if you do make the game go faster.

Even on your own side, you deny yourself the chance to get more kills/damage, and by giving up, you also might deny some of your teammates with possible assists from mechs you might kill. This denies them, and yourself, more experience and c-bills as well, just by not even trying and killing yourself.

Basically, you can do it, and I understand your reasoning, but I see it as poor sportsmanship all around. Even if you are damaged, you should still try to win the game. Seek out the enemy. Try to lure them away from each other to balance your odds. Attack from the unexpected angles. Hit and run. Go into some protracted gorilla warfare. You can still possibly win the match if you are skilled/lucky. I've done it myself before with a near dead Cicada with one leg, and if I had given up we would have lost instead of winning the match. It doesn't hurt you to try and fight, does it?

[Darth Futuza]

Tesunie, on 21 December 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

If you look at it from the other team though, by suicide, you deny them the C-bills and experience of your kill, making this match less effective. If this became "common" behavior, and everyone started doing that as soon as things looked grim/impossible, then that can quickly mount to players needing to play even more matches to "grind" out enough C-bills for a project, even if you do make the game go faster.

Even on your own side, you deny yourself the chance to get more kills/damage, and by giving up, you also might deny some of your teammates with possible assists from mechs you might kill. This denies them, and yourself, more experience and c-bills as well, just by not even trying and killing yourself.

Basically, you can do it, and I understand your reasoning, but I see it as poor sportsmanship all around. Even if you are damaged, you should still try to win the game. Seek out the enemy. Try to lure them away from each other to balance your odds. Attack from the unexpected angles. Hit and run. Go into some protracted gorilla warfare. You can still possibly win the match if you are skilled/lucky. I've done it myself before with a near dead Cicada with one leg, and if I had given up we would have lost instead of winning the match. It doesn't hurt you to try and fight, does it?

I'm talking more of 12 vs 1 scenarios, where you are wounded. If there is a badly damaged mech that you can take out and score a kill from, I'll jump on that chance sure. If its 1 v 4, that's pretty good chances, especially if I'm a light. However, I"m talking about worst case scenario that seems to happen a lot. 12 v 1 and you are beat up badly. If I follow your line of thought it leads to a strange alternative if we're talking 'honor among players':

If you are the last one left, honorably face the enemy, then they let you blow componets off of them one at a time, till you've stripped the enemy team without killing any of them. Then allow them to strip you before killing you. Max xp and c-bills all around, except for your dead team mates who have to watch in horror. This is an even more impossible scenario then managing to win 12 to 1 because it involves the online players restraining themselves, and an impossible degree of trust between greedy pugs.

The other alternative you aren't considering is just shutting down in the corner and waiting till the match ends. But this is a terrible alternative since it hurts you just as much as the enemy. I don't really see how suicide is that much of a disservice it gets the horrible match over with quicker, and really doesn't take away much xp/c-bill opportunity. Sure it reduces c-bills a bit, but not much compared to what they already have.

Quote

I've done it myself before with a near dead Cicada with one leg, and if I had given up we would have lost instead of winning the match. It doesn't hurt you to try and fight, does it?

12 vs 1? I demand pics and a video cause it'd be freaking epic to watch.

Edited by Darth Futuza, 21 December 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[Tesunie]

Darth Futuza, on 21 December 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

I'm talking more of 12 vs 1 scenarios, where you are wounded. If there is a badly damaged mech that you can take out and score a kill from, I'll jump on that chance sure. If its 1 v 4, that's pretty good chances, especially if I'm a light. However, I"m talking about worst case scenario that seems to happen a lot. 12 v 1 and you are beat up badly. If I follow your line of thought it leads to a strange alternative if we're talking 'honor among players':

If you are the last one left, honorably face the enemy, then they let you blow componets off of them one at a time, till you've stripped the enemy team without killing any of them. Then allow them to strip you before killing you. Max xp and c-bills all around, except for your dead team mates who have to watch in horror. This is an even more impossible scenario then managing to win 12 to 1 because it involves the online players restraining themselves, and an impossible degree of trust between greedy pugs.

The other alternative you aren't considering is just shutting down in the corner and waiting till the match ends. But this is a terrible alternative since it hurts you just as much as the enemy. I don't really see how suicide is that much of a disservice it gets the horrible match over with quicker, and really doesn't take away much xp/c-bill opportunity. Sure it reduces c-bills a bit, but not much compared to what they already have.


12 vs 1? I demand pics and a video cause it'd be freaking epic to watch.

I think you have blown what I was saying into the complete wrong perspective, and way out of proportion. The point is, even 12 v 1, you can still eek out a little more damage and maybe a kill, especially if one is crafty. The sportsmanship I'm talking about isn't "give each player the max c-bills", but let them "get the kill". It reminds me of people who use to kill a few mechs, and just before you could kill them they would log out. Back then, people who did this would not get the death on their K/D score, and the player who preformed the kill of the disconnected mech would receive no reward for the kill. It was very popular and often times used exploit of the system that saw no reprimand for some time. Then they changed the system and closed that option off. I see suicide as a very similar event, but not nearly of the same problem. I'm just saying that when you pull a suicide, you deny the kill, damage and experience/c-bills of your mech.

For the record, I don't recommend people run, hide and power down and see if the timer could run out before they find you. Between that and a suicide, I'd rather someone pull a fast death than to draw out the match unnecessarily. I do know this is your point, but you can "die" just as fast by finding the enemy and letting them kill you, instead of killing yourself.

One of my biggest questions to this behavior is, how does fighting to the last man hurt you, compared to suicide? I don't see how continuing the fight, even with impossible odds, hurts you and makes suicide a better option. Continuing the fight can only give you (and everyone else) benefits, as there is the chance you can still kill someone on the enemy team, or if nothing else cause some more damage at least.

As for the match I recall with the Cicada (it happens rarely, but I've had it happen a few times besides this one incident), I took down 5 enemy mechs, all at the end of the match. It was back in 8v8, on Frozen City Night. I was down near Theta, and had lost a leg just as I killed the person who took my leg. So, here I was, 4 other mechs against me (the other mech I took down was the first), no other allies, and I have no leg in a Cicada that lives on speed. I'm trying to get into a position to find and engage an enemy, figuring I'd go down guns blazing. While moving, I see an enemy mech drop down from the cliffs above. I panic, and shoot all my lasers into him! He died. Completely unexpected. Then, another mech does the same thing. I manage to react first again, shooting all my lasers (4 med lasers, if it mattered) into the torso. Another mech keels over dead. Then, I see another mech drop over the ridge again, and I'm thinking to myself "This is it. He's gonna kill me. I'm dead, but I got two others with me somehow". Well, his shots go wide and miss. My lasers recharge, and I just blindly shoot (Target Data didn't have a chance to tell me damage still), and he crumples as well. Finally, the last one runs to me, this one didn't drop, but instead ran down the slop to the side. I manage to shoot one more time, didn't even get a chance to lock the target, and he drops too, to my complete amazement. Suddenly, I see my team chatting victory cries in the all chat, and I'm just standing there shocked. I couldn't believe I did that, and that I actually survived the battle. I was so sure I was dead there. (No video, as my computer I don't think could handle a video program and MWO running at the same time. And no screens either, as this was a long time ago, screens didn't work all that well, and I was too dazed to even think of it. But it did happen.)

My point is, most people started saying GG when I was the last one left with one leg. Yet somehow we won because I didn't give up. Imagine how that tale would have been if I just headed to the boarder and killed myself instead. 5v1 are not good odds, especially for a legged fast mech. Maybe not as dismal as 12v1, I will give, but still. You don't know if you can till you try.


(Warning: I am not feeling well as I am writing this, so things might be misspelled, or worded incorrectly. I am sorry if this is the case.)

[Darth Futuza]

Tesunie, on 21 December 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

I think you have blown what I was saying into the complete wrong perspective, and way out of proportion.

Maybe a bit

I see your point as well, I just don't think its that bad though. Me personally, I prefer fighting till I die mostly because I feel impressive taking on the entire enemy team and lasting 2-5 minutes. Its a good pride back scratch moment. I'm just saying I don't blame someone who uses this strategy at all.

[Rhialto]

If I had to answer to the title only which read:

SHOULD WE REPORT PLAYERS WHO DELIBERATELY RUN OUT OF BOUNDS RATHER THAN BE KILLED?

I would say no because if it was a problem, they would simply add code that would do it.

If it's ok to go outbound is another question... and I would say that I've done it on a few occasions and I used it as a kind of 'surrender/eject' button. When you're the only one alive against 4, I would prefer to declare them winner instead of meeting them in a pack and maybe kill 1 or 2 but inevitably die anyway. That's my point of view.

[Szegedin]

If you really want to be a {Richard Cameron} and suicide a no-win scenario, go in with guns blazing and hit that override key.

[LordJops]

Magnakanus, on 06 November 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

When the word “honor” enters the argument we should note that it was considered “honorable” to allow a defeated enemy to retreat, not cut them down in blood lust which was seen as “dishonorable”.

Very well said.

In WWI, for example, there often was a mutual respect among soldiers who, while fighting on opposite sides, shared in the same horrors and triumphs as their enemies. To shoot a retreating man would be like shooting yourself in a way. It always sickens me how in the United States that Armistice day, an international day of honor, has been subverted into Veterans day. There is something very humanizing about the idea that all nations remember on a purely human level those who have sacrificed in the past. I'm not against the idea of an American war themed holiday, but overshadowing Armistice day to the point where few know what it commemorates is really sad. Now, post WWII, it seems that 'Merica is better than everybody on every level, even in the real of sportsmanship. It is not about doing/being your best as much as it is about devastating those who are weaker than you. IE, MechWarrior online KD ratio bloodlustfest.

Report someone retreating?

[Tesunie]

LordJops, on 22 December 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Very well said.

In WWI, for example, there often was a mutual respect among soldiers who, while fighting on opposite sides, shared in the same horrors and triumphs as their enemies. To shoot a retreating man would be like shooting yourself in a way. It always sickens me how in the United States that Armistice day, an international day of honor, has been subverted into Veterans day. There is something very humanizing about the idea that all nations remember on a purely human level those who have sacrificed in the past. I'm not against the idea of an American war themed holiday, but overshadowing Armistice day to the point where few know what it commemorates is really sad. Now, post WWII, it seems that 'Merica is better than everybody on every level, even in the real of sportsmanship. It is not about doing/being your best as much as it is about devastating those who are weaker than you. IE, MechWarrior online KD ratio bloodlustfest.

Report someone retreating?

I agree, however retreating is not an option in this game. If it was, and one could escape the match without needing to die (out of bounds destruction is still a death, same with overheating), then I would gladly permit enemy units who wish to withdraw the chance. However, being a game and not real life, and the game having no real "retreat" option, I think it is best for all parties to "go down fighting" as it does no harm to either side if you do. Actually, going down fighting in this game only brings more rewards for everyone, where as running away and self destructing (or hiding and running down the clock) reduces possible rewards on all sides, your own team as well. (I also believe, as I know at the moment of course, that if you ran outside the boundaries to die, you earned nothing from the match besides base win/lose awards? Might need some confirmation on this.)

To counter the argument of "it's to quicken the match", if you want to make the match faster and you are the last one left, you can always inform the enemy of your own position, instead of running out of bounds. Just a concept here...

PS: Not all of use saying we would rather go down fighting (and wish you do to the same) are worried about our K/D. I'll let people know, my K/D is 0.81, and I don't think it would make a difference if it was higher or lower.

Additional Edit:
As I've said before for myself, as I'm sure you probably know, I feel that this issue is not even worth reporting. However, if one asks if it can be reported, the answer is yes by the letter of the rules it can be reported. But, I don't think it is worth the time or effort to report something like this.

Edited by Tesunie, 22 December 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Barantor]

I've run OOB before and it saved everyone time.

I was in my oxide with all streaks and did the most damage in the game, the rest of my pug team dissolved slowly. I went to cap as a last resort and my last teammate died leaving four assaults left on the field. It being forest colony they were just going to slowly get to me and sit on the cap and blast me.

Yeah I could've run around for the next 7 minutes and played peek-a-boo, but instead I saved everyone some time and just ran out into the water and OOB. One guy on the other team even thanked me after I told them I was out of ammo.

Was that "cowardly"? Don't really care, I wanted my mech back for the next match since that one was a loss and it kept all those people that died on both teams from waiting unnecessarily.

Had there been an eject or retreat option I would've punched out or retreated, there was no way to win on that small old map with no ammo. I would've taken about 30 pts of damage, so not a real gain for the other team and I have heard that everyone that hit me over the course of the game still gets an assist if I run OOB, so win for them too.

This game has enough to grind for, no sense keeping folks waiting that need/want practice and grinding time.

[990Dreams]

Someone close this and then open a new topic about suicide please. Clearly running OOB is allowed at the end game. Just needed to get the attention of y'all.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 24 December 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Tesunie]

Barantor, on 24 December 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I've run OOB before and it saved everyone time.

I was in my oxide with all streaks and did the most damage in the game, the rest of my pug team dissolved slowly. I went to cap as a last resort and my last teammate died leaving four assaults left on the field. It being forest colony they were just going to slowly get to me and sit on the cap and blast me.

Yeah I could've run around for the next 7 minutes and played peek-a-boo, but instead I saved everyone some time and just ran out into the water and OOB. One guy on the other team even thanked me after I told them I was out of ammo.

Was that "cowardly"? Don't really care, I wanted my mech back for the next match since that one was a loss and it kept all those people that died on both teams from waiting unnecessarily.

Had there been an eject or retreat option I would've punched out or retreated, there was no way to win on that small old map with no ammo. I would've taken about 30 pts of damage, so not a real gain for the other team and I have heard that everyone that hit me over the course of the game still gets an assist if I run OOB, so win for them too.

This game has enough to grind for, no sense keeping folks waiting that need/want practice and grinding time.

I can see this. No way to cause damage. Personally, I would have sat on the cap till they arrived, then ran out of bounds, but I wasn't there to say how close the enemy was to their base... It was probably the wiser move here. (There are always exceptions to every rule.)

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I do it. Especially if it's going the way of the ROFLstomp gg. Or if staying alive would drag it out.

Else I'll just suicide overheat.

[MaV4234]

It all depends on your own playstyle.. Are you a 3/4 dead light mech with a few hundred rounds of MG ammo? or a med mech with over half your armament? if running at 1 enemy mech is suicide (let alone a full lance) then its no difference than running OOB.. If you ran away and had a halfway decent chance of taking one or two of them with you, then thats more cowardly..


"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." - Emiliano Zapata

[The Flying Gecko]

If I have no guns or ammo left I don't even hesitate. NEXT MATCH!

[somenothing]

Just noticed this though...

Self-Destruction
Any MechWarrior who willfully or repeatedly-
Overheats their BattleMech to destruction; or
Is removed from battle by leaving the battlefield boundaries;
Is guilty of BattleMech Desertion and shall be moderated.


http://mwomercs.com/...arrior-justice/


Personally, if I'm in a resonably fast mech, I try to predict where they'd be hunting me, then flank and do as much damage as I can before I die or alpha-overheat-shutdown to a fiery death while improving odds of another kill/more c-bills.

If I'm in say a LRM boat and nobody's in range (>180) then I just shutdown and commit seppuku.

Too bad you can't eject in MWO.

[Tankno]

When I'm the last mech in a fight I make my enemy suffer. At times this is to the suffering of my fellow teammates who only wish to end the game faster. But, I've been able to turn 1 vs 6 into 1 vs 3. By waiting I don't waste my time. I buy that one opportunity where that critical medium mech runs by my position with no clue.

Now in regards to suiciding, it is against the rules and they will be reported on sight.

[Deathz Jester]

If you fought and tried through the whole match, and you've either got no weapons or ridiculously outnumbered then yes, I'd rather run out of bounds than be one of those filthy degenerates that tries to run the clock out. If you're going to lose, then lose, no one wants to wait around.

[Tesunie]

somenothing, on 01 January 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

Self-Destruction
Any MechWarrior who willfully or repeatedly-
Overheats their BattleMech to destruction; or
Is removed from battle by leaving the battlefield boundaries;
Is guilty of BattleMech Desertion and shall be moderated.

http://mwomercs.com/...arrior-justice/

Basically it comes down to:
Should you report: Probably not under these situations (out of ammo/last mech alive/etc).
Can you: By the terms of the rules you can, but in this "end of game" situation, I don't see the need to.


Personally, I figure one should try to go down fighting if one can. If one has no weapons and no way to win (you can't cap a base or possibly win from conquest), then sure. Nothing you could do anyway (I'd still prefer one to just let the enemy kill you, it does you no personal harm (once more, unless no one is nearby) and unless you really had no weapons, you can try to cause a bit more damage...) then sure.

It's a case of "every rule has an exception". Also can be a case of "pick your battles" when reporting something to support, as I'd rather not waste their time with something that, honestly, is kinda trivial like this... (My opinion of course.)

Iron Harlequin, on 01 January 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

If you fought and tried through the whole match, and you've either got no weapons or ridiculously outnumbered then yes, I'd rather run out of bounds than be one of those filthy degenerates that tries to run the clock out. If you're going to lose, then lose, no one wants to wait around.

Or instead of running out of bounds or running the clock, one (if they have weapons/situation dependent) could try to turn and fight the enemy and possibly get another kill or cause at least more damage (making yourself look better at end of match, and earn you and possibly your team more c-bills).

Of course, if one has no ammo and/or no weapons, and no enemies are nearby, then sure. By all means.

[JediMechwarrior]

I believe it is covered in the UCMJ, yes you should. As for retreating not being a tactic,you sir have some Art of War to read. Or study tactics. Call it a tactical advance to the rear. Regarding the dodgy spider...if they r skilled they will run the clock down spreading the enemy out to pick up another. Killing yourself...skills b lacking.