128 replies to this topic

[Jon Gotham]

It was the same story on the same thread in the WOT forums. A group of people wanting their kills, their rewards for dominating. Same attitude behind it, same level of aggression spewed at anyone who disagrees.
On that thread it was agreed that:
It is your duty to provide xp for the dominant team.
Your duty is to give them their rewards.
Your duty is to their fun.
If you didn't do those things, you were obviously a skill-less coward!

You will note The Basilisk, that no one has yet satisfactorily explained why my sympathy is "misplaced" or why it's unfair to run but fair to gank.
If there is one poor soul left, of course I have sympathy for him/her. I personally try to NOT gank them, I'd rather leave them be and cap. there is no need to effectively urinate on the nearest lamp post to prove my dominance.

But I guess the aim is to crush the enemy and feel good about ourselves isn't it? Never mind anyone else, let's get our xp and c-bills in!
So again, why is it unfair to run away but fair to gank?
Why is running away a cowardly act, yet ganking 5 on 1 not cowardly?

[Appogee]

The Basilisk, on 25 November 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

I wonder if sweet li'l Apogee has realized how much of his posts in this thread got a like.

7 by my count, plus a dozen players who didn't like but actually took the time to post and say they agreed. And then there were others who took a different view, as was their right.

However, if you're measuring the validity of your opinion by forum likes, then you have bigger problems than I can address here. Further, the purpose of a forum is to compare different views. If you only post topics that you think everyone will agree with, then your ego is even more fragile than it currently appears.

The Basilisk, on 25 November 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

do you at least realize that there may be people that know the rules that technically alow you to humiliate an opponent by ganking him XXX vs one but also know in what spirit these rules where writen and honor this spirit in spite of rule abusers like you ?

Why is anyone humiliated by being killed by superior forces? It's more humiliating to run away and hide, rather than fight.

The Basilisk, on 25 November 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Especialy if those rules give you an unfair advantage over an other player that has no REAL possible way to strike back effectively.

Again, you trot out the disproven myth of the ''helpless last player''. It seems to be the favoured excuse of those lacking the will to fight, or who are stats padding their meaningless k/d ratio.

The Basilisk, on 25 November 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

So far I had no one on my ignorelist since closed beta. I think I now have found one who deserves the very special honor to be the very first in it.

Good! That's one less nonsensical factually-incorrect response I will need to deal with in future threads.

Edited by Appogee, 25 November 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[Appogee]

kamiko kross, on 25 November 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

You will note The Basilisk that no one has yet satisfactorily explained why my sympathy is "misplaced" or why it's unfair to run but fair to gank. So again, why is it unfair to run away but fair to gank?

Firstly, I never said it was ''unfair''. You were the one to use that term. I said it was ''unsportsmanlike''.

But you clearly haven't read the thread, where these issues were discussed several times. So here's your own special little summary.

1. Running away denies your team the potential for victory, and the potential additional rewards you would do by causing additional damage. It is unfair to your team. Further, running away and denying an enemy team its deserved victory, reduces the winning team's battle rewards. This reduction in the team's rewards has no benefit to the losing player who runs away. It is only a cost to the winning team. In a game with as much grind as this one, I believe it is ''unfair'' and selfish to reduce my opponent's winnings for no benefit to myself.Running away also happens to be against the rules of the game as stated by PGI.

2. What you call 'ganking' I describe as 'finishing the battle within the rules of engagement'. It's ''fair'' (your word) because it's actually the victory condition for the battle. This is stated on the introduction screen to the map. It says ''destroy all enemy Mechs'' or ''cap the base''. PGI's rules also state that everyone should engage to achieve that objective.

Note that I apply these considerations equally to myself. If my team is losing, then I will be killed trying to win. And if my team is winning, then I will be trying to kill remaining opponents, and I will be expecting them to try to win.


Finally, if we were to seriously embrace your idea that multiple Mechs fighting one Mech is ''ganking'', then that would mean we shouldn't fire at other enemy Mechs which are already engaged mid battle. It would mean that we should never play in a coordinated lance, because lances by their nature focus their fire on targets. And how will you like it when I'm sole survivor in my Jenner-F, facing off against your four enemy Assaults, and I go about killing each of you in turn, as you politely employ your ''anti-ganking'' policies out of misplaced sympathy for me?

The idea that finishing the 12 v 12 battle is ''ganking'' is clearly not just nonsensical, but also, impractical.

Edited by Appogee, 25 November 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

So Appogee why are you against an enemy admitting defeat, and saving time by just running out of bounds? It is after all just a game, and thus said, should be no big deal, After all there is no shame in killing oneself when they know I am coming for their life! They save me time and effort.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 November 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Appogee]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 November 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

So Appogee why are you against an enemy admitting defeat, and saving time by just running out of bounds? It is after all just a game, and thus said, should be no big deal, After all there is no shame in killing oneself when they know I am coming for their life! They save me time and effort.

I gave my reasons in the post directly above (I realise we were probably posting at the same time, and that's why you didn't see me rearticulating them).

By the way, I don't think this is a ''big deal''. I think the War in Syria, and Iran's development of nuclear warheads are a ''big deal''. I write threads on the MWO forums to share and compare views on things that I think are interesting or which could improve the game experience.

Edited by Appogee, 25 November 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

But at least he finally answered my question!
I still find the opinion intensely distasteful, but finally an answer with only a little aggression!

Personally, if you are last man standing that rule designed to force you to fight shouldn't count. It was put in place to prevent you from bailing out mid fight-not when it's 7 v 1.

I had game earlier where I managed to pull 465 damage in my Jenner, with it's small pulse lasers. Enemy had x6 DD-C Atlas and four heavies. a med and one light. We had a few heavies.....
I fought till I dropped...why? Because there was one other team mate left and he was lrm boat-I wasn't gonna leave him to get ganked alone. I personally took 2 of the DD-C's from 100% to death solo, game of my life....yet it left a sour taste in my mouth because I ended up getting rofld by ,multiple opponents I simply could not kill.
Was I pleased with how I played? Yes. Did I enjoy the match? No. The enemy team severley outweighed us and had stupid levels of ECM and ended up ganking me at the end. It simply was not fun to get rolled over!

Moral of the story-I'm not against fighting, but you have to have reason to. A few measly cbills and xp certainly ain't worth it, and if in game like that where you are given all the odds in your favour-WHY should you get any more benefit than you already have?

[Mycrus]

Mech The Dane, on 08 November 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

By Odin's eye, people on the forums sure seem to complain a lot.

Let's just find reasons to ban everyone for doing anything you don't like.
Let's limit the experience and range of possibilities because sometimes people take advantage of them.
Let's put the double-layered kids gloves on because then everyone wins!

Hell, I don't even think TK'ers should be in trouble unless they are passionate repeat offenders. It's part of the spice of life. Sometimes you run into a jerk you shots at you and sometimes you have to deal with it. Sorry that it might be annoying at the time, but it adds variety to your experience. Which I think is a good thing.

Same with the 'Mech pilot who runs out of bounds instead of letting the other team kill him. Maybe you see he is all that is left and heavily damaged and maybe you see he is trying to escape out of the map and if you want that kill for yourself, or your team, you have to chase him down.

I don't know about you, but that scenerio sounds interesting to me. I am glad that scenerio exists. I would be upset if it didn't.

On a more personal level, how do you react when pugs stomp your 4-man and then sayz "gg close"...

[LORD TSARKON]

I can confirm that if you suicide 5 times in a ROW (over-ride and killyourself) you will get a 1 hour Ban....



But you do not get Banned if you take off all your armor and run into the enemy retardedly....

[Appogee]

The Basilisk, on 25 November 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

So far I had no one on my ignorelist since closed beta.

Runs away from battles so he can't be shot at.

Runs away from threads so he can't be argued with.

At least he's consistent.

[General Solo]

Every time I play the game it says

Capture enemy bases
or
Kill all enemy mechs

How can I do that if there is one mech left?

Disagreement does not equal hate

Have a nice day

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 20 December 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Yeah it's fun to RP that we have honour and courage and all that stuff on the battlefield, but the fact is as OP stated:

Appogee, on 10 November 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

[/size]

But this isn't real life.

This is a video game.

And if it's not ruining a match on purpose, it's legit. One could call it a tactic even. It is denying a kill from the enemy team. Maybe these guys play alot of Dota 2. Anyways, who cares if the match is obviously lost.

[Tesunie]

I don't know what the moderator who responded on page one was thinking, even with his questions on participation level, but suiciding (on purpose) for any reason feels like a reportable offense. Even if he was near death and last one alive, it is better to participate till the end and go out fighting (also causing more damage meaning you make more money) than to run out of bounds and die hopelessly.

Also, to quote the rules here: http://mwomercs.com/...79#entry2753479

Quote

Self-Destruction
Any MechWarrior who willfully or repeatedly-

• Overheats their BattleMech to destruction; or
  
• Is removed from battle by leaving the battlefield boundaries;

Is guilty of BattleMech Desertion and shall be moderated.

Seems reportable to me...

[Tesunie]

kamiko kross, on 25 November 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

It was the same story on the same thread in the WOT forums. A group of people wanting their kills, their rewards for dominating. Same attitude behind it, same level of aggression spewed at anyone who disagrees.
On that thread it was agreed that:
It is your duty to provide xp for the dominant team.
Your duty is to give them their rewards.
Your duty is to their fun.
If you didn't do those things, you were obviously a skill-less coward!

You will note The Basilisk, that no one has yet satisfactorily explained why my sympathy is "misplaced" or why it's unfair to run but fair to gank.
If there is one poor soul left, of course I have sympathy for him/her. I personally try to NOT gank them, I'd rather leave them be and cap. there is no need to effectively urinate on the nearest lamp post to prove my dominance.

But I guess the aim is to crush the enemy and feel good about ourselves isn't it? Never mind anyone else, let's get our xp and c-bills in!
So again, why is it unfair to run away but fair to gank?
Why is running away a cowardly act, yet ganking 5 on 1 not cowardly?

I personally would rather fight, even if I am the last man standing. I have had matches where, last man standing vs a large portion of the enemy team (I can recall one time when I was in a legged Cicada with 5 enemies still alive) and I ended up killing all of them as they slowly funneled into me. My team had ended up damaging them so much that I was able to kill them before they even managed to fire at me. Yes, I got 5 kills that match at the end of the match, with a legged Cicada, and won the match for my team. I didn't know what had happened till it was all done and I was no longer panicking. (I give my team all the credit for leaving the enemy in such a beaten state that I could kill them. Without them, it never would have happened. It had little to do with me, besides a lot of luck.)

Even if you are the last one alive, and you don't happen to have the same luck I did for that one match (it does happen rarely I will admit), I can still earn more damage and maybe more kills (and kill assists for my team possible) before I finally get "ganked". It is better for all players involved. You can also try for a base cap (skirmish excluded), and you might even win that way. If you are on conquest and you can't cap enough to win, try to find foes that are scattered trying to find you. You might still be able to cause more damage or kills before the match ends or you are killed. (PS: In conquest, win or lose last I knew, you do still gain more rewards for more resources captured, so hanging in there a little longer might still be more beneficial for yourself and your team.)

Remember, this is a team game. Think not just of yourself, but of your team. Even if you are last one left. If running away was a legal option (as in, actually withdrawing by getting to X withdrawal point or something), then okay. Self destructing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth instead, isn't exactly supported in the game as an actual withdrawal, and it isn't very sportsmanlike.

However, these are my thoughts and opinions (I may need to reword/rephrase/expound/clarify these thoughts over time) on the subject. We are all entitled to our opinion.

But you're wrong and I am right, so your opinion doesn't matter. (Yes. This is a joke, so don't get mad!)

[Appogee]

IV Amen, on 20 December 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

And if it's not ruining a match on purpose, it's legit. One could call it a tactic even.

It is ''ruining a match'' in the sense that one team is not able to complete the stated victory conditions.

Further, 'tactics' need to have a legitimate objective in achieving a broader strategic goal. But no legitimate goal is achieved by running away and suiciding.

[Egomane]

Tesunie, on 20 December 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

I don't know what the moderator who responded on page one was thinking, even with his questions on participation level, but suiciding (on purpose) for any reason feels like a reportable offense. Even if he was near death and last one alive, it is better to participate till the end and go out fighting (also causing more damage meaning you make more money) than to run out of bounds and die hopelessly.

Also, to quote the rules here: http://mwomercs.com/...79#entry2753479


Seems reportable to me...

It's nice that people always look at the words of a rule but ignore the spirit of it. For a more detailed explaination of the mech suizide rule you can take a look at the Ingame Exploit/Griefing rules:

Quote

Mech Suicide Abuse
Some players have been repeatedly finding ways to destroy their ‘Mechs as quickly as possible.
This behaviour denies an otherwise healthy team of an active member, and makes the battle imbalanced. As such, this is prohibited and includes instances of players intentionally and repeatedly running out of bounds, or into the enemy team without tactical intent, or any other way in which a player has found to be self-destructing their `Mech.

Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in
mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

Did he participate and sees no chance of winning anymore?
- Yes.
Is the team still healthy?
- No, all others are dead already.

Ok... so he can run and hide, no worries. He doesn't have to die by enemy fire. But if he can run and hide, he can also suicide because it has the same effect. I'm pretty sure the support will not act on this.

Appogee, on 20 December 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

[/size]
It is ''ruining a match'' in the sense that one team is not able to complete the stated victory conditions.

How so? All enemy mechs died. Those that run out of bounds are destroyed as well. "Destroy all Enemy Mechs" achieved!

[Appogee]

Egomane, on 21 December 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

How so? All enemy mechs died. Those that run out of bounds are destroyed as well. "Destroy all Enemy Mechs" achieved!

I realise we're splitting hairs here, and in ways probably not envisaged by whomever wrote the victory conditions. However, to ''destroy'' something implies actively taking action against it ... which is different to ''encouraging something to flee'' or making it ''commit suicide'' or ''forcing a strategic retreat'' etc.

When an enemy Mech runs out of bounds deliberately, we're not ''destroying all enemy Mechs'' we're merely ''causing (some) enemy Mechs to destroy themselves''. Not quite the same.

That was to explain the thinking behind my response, anyway.

You are closer to the devs than I am, but given they specifically outlawed ''failing to engage'' then I think there's some logic to my point of view.

Edited by Appogee, 21 December 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Egomane]

Appogee, on 21 December 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

You are closer to the devs than I am,

Not really! I'm just more exposed to how the rules are enforced on the boards and can therefore make estimated calls on how that is done in the game. I'm as close to the devs as any of you.

Thanks for clarifing your viewpoint.

[Jon Gotham]

Tesunie, on 20 December 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

But you're wrong and I am right, so your opinion doesn't matter. (Yes. This is a joke, so don't get mad!)

Cheeky monkey:P

I'll fight till I drop if I have a good chance of putting up a good fight. I won't if it will be a sacrifice. I'll also fight and die if it will aid my team in winning, but won't if it won't.
What I will never do if I can help it-is reward an overweight team, or reward a team that has been a blatant mismatch in skills. I'll do everything I can to deny that extra xp/cbill farming.
Sportmanship goes both ways I'm afraid. If it's unsporting to run away, it's just as bad to go 5 on 1.
A game a few days ago, a cicada and a raven are going at it a fantastic running duel that has lasted nearly 3 full minutes with both pilots showing extreme displays of skill. This made for excellent viewing except for one thing-the jenner's greedy team mates are all trying to gank the cicada. I asked them several times in chat to leave them to it-let them have their duel they are obviously enjoying. But no, the gankers all want their slice of that last kill:( In the end both the cicada and the jenner were deprived of their nice duel by greed.

[Tesunie]

Egomane, on 21 December 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

It's nice that people always look at the words of a rule but ignore the spirit of it. For a more detailed explaination of the mech suizide rule you can take a look at the Ingame Exploit/Griefing rules:


Did he participate and sees no chance of winning anymore?
- Yes.
Is the team still healthy?
- No, all others are dead already.

Ok... so he can run and hide, no worries. He doesn't have to die by enemy fire. But if he can run and hide, he can also suicide because it has the same effect. I'm pretty sure the support will not act on this.

I can understand and respect where you are coming from, and I personally would be disappointed to see this behavior but would not feel it worth reporting for the same reasons you present. You are right that it isn't an exploit nor a grief (at least not outright a grief), however I just don't see the point of it. Isn't be better game play and sportsmanship to go down "guns blazing"? You could still get some good damage/kills in to boost your own performance rating, as well as help the other team (I know, a loose reason here, but I'm talking sportsmanship here) earn more rewards for damaging and kill you in return. As people have stated, it's a game.

Basically, I can agree and see your thoughts, even if I don't completely agree or see the point of doing the action involved. I don't think it would be a "ban-able" offense, and it's an offense that isn't even worth reporting. It's such a minor point, I wouldn't be bothered with it. This is a kind of "choose your battles" report. I would rather not inconvenience the support team with something like this (as you put it spirit of the law verse letter of the law) and instead save their effort and energies for reports on known DCers (they whom I see do it every match I see their name in) and TKers, as well as bugs and performance issues. When it comes down to it, no matter what I think of this situation, it's a non-issue that is only slightly annoying. I agree it's not good, but I don't think it's as big of a deal as some people are making it sound here.

PS: Reportable does not mean punishable. I think I worded that wrong and I am pleased you didn't seem to take offense to it, as none was meant. I hope I'm making sense here, as I guess it's confusing and hard to word what I feel/think about this subject.

[Tesunie]

kamiko kross, on 21 December 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Cheeky monkey:P

I try! But humor can be hard to do with text sometimes...


As for the rest, I can understand both sides of the tale. As I tend to run LRMs, I'm always looking to help my team. Being in the situation with hunting down the last enemy target, I've also felt the "at least get some damage in for the assist and maybe kill bonus" as well, as I'm usually dirt broke in the game. But, if someone asked in chat to keep it as a dual, I probably would just watch and wait, but it'd be hard not to try and help. (I'm more of a team player than a solo warrior.)

As for sportsmanship and "imbalanced teams" sometimes a team can just click, and wipe the other team off the map. This doesn't always mean we should be punished for doing a good job, but I do understand where you are coming from. Sometimes it can be very frustrating to be on the other end (been on both sides, being creamed with no kills, and wasting the enemy without a single loss). The best games are always when they are close nail bitters, but not all games can be like that. (I do feel sorry when I'm on the "clearly winning team" for the enemy team. Best thing to do is to just try and make it as quick and painless as possible for them. Which is another reason why many of us will gang up on the last mech. Kill them quick so we all can just move on.)

Basically, to place it as simply as I can, take the game and enjoy it, good matches and bad ones. Even if you are being wiped, it will feel all the better if you can manage to get that last kill (or sometimes only kill) before you die. Don't give up just because it looks impossible. I always hate a team that drops missing a few people (DCed or not even loaded in), and I hate it even more when they give up and just charge/die to the enemy. Some of my best matches have happen with a shorted team, and instead of giving up hope we are like "We just need to work harder, smarter. We can still do this!"