154 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Trauglodyte, on 05 November 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

I would be careful in pulling that card, PEEF. A player's KDR or W/L ratio is more the product of their team and less about the mech that they're using. Much like kills in a game is often a product of luck and the overall weight of the mech in use (and skill), which is a product of the weapons available for use, how often you win is entirely predicated on how good the rest of your team is, how effective your strategy is, mechs in use and overall tonnage vs that of your opponent, and how well your team communicates. If you were to play 100 games in a trial Commando and only queue as a solo PUGGer, I'm pretty certain that your W/L and KDR would plummet despite how good you are.

I'm willing to bet a lot of people who hate the "pro" players will have a wake-up call when 1 on 1 private matches are implemented. Likewise, some "pro" players will, too.

They can't come soon enough. Mechwarrior has always been about solo duels since it first hit the internet.

[ManDaisy]

His Aston... gets him the ladies.

[Joseph Mallan]

ManDaisy, on 05 November 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

His Aston... gets him the ladies.

Shaken not stirred.

[Gallowglas]

Rhaythe, on 05 November 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

So when I smash a spider's CT into flaky dust with a well-placed shot from an AC20, am I good, lucky, or broken? I really can't tell these days.

As has been mentioned, the problem isn't consistent. I've killed countless Spiders. Heck, I killed three with my AC/20 in one match last night. However, there are many occasions where shots clearly land and do nothing but cause the paper doll to flash. When it happens, it's often pretty plain to see. And, no, this isn't some excuse about having poor aim. I'm willing to own up to poor shots. There have been plenty of unambiguous examples of the bug though. I'm not looking for an easy kill. I just want a consistent, predictable mechanic.

[DaZur]

Mister Blastman, on 05 November 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

I'm willing to bet a lot of people who hate the "pro" players will have a wake-up call when 1 on 1 private matches are implemented. Likewise, some "pro" players will, too.

They can't come soon enough. Mechwarrior has always been about solo duels since it first hit the internet.

All I'm anticipating is copious opportunity for the already well-endowed e-peen swingers to bloviate over their latest conquest.

[Oni Ralas]

Mister Blastman, on 05 November 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I'm glad you waste your life pursuing material gain. When you die, what good will it do you? The only things that matter in life are family, friends and how you helped change other people's lives for the better. Everything else is fruitless and shallow.

Actually, I'm a Stoic. I'd love to get involved in a philosophical discussion on all of this

But, since you asked - I do not pursue material possessions. Many spectrums (Hedonistic <---> Cynic) discuss the issue of posessions and wealth. Stoics tend to fall in the middle range. I have wealth because I *don't* pursue it - as weird as that sounds. What I mean is, I accept that all that I have now can be taken at any moment. In that, I do not bind myself to material things, nor directly seek wealth. As such, I tend not to actually care about buying things, so money kinda just adds up. When I do spend, it's to enjoy the little things (like my cars) but like I said, I don't dwell on them nor would I be destroyed at their loss. Spending time with family and friends is extremely important though like you touched on.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

ManDaisy, on 05 November 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

His Aston... gets him the ladies.

ima going to dress like a lady and wait for him to pick me up and take that sh**. Whats he going to tell his wife a male h**ker took it?

[Odins Fist]

PEEFsmash, on 05 November 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

You think Spiders are invincible because you cannot hit them.

Spiders are not OP... A lot of people have no problems HITTING Spiders...
Most people have a problem with them not taking damage in relation to the damage output of their weapons. or at least that's what they think.

There is no consistency when it comes to damage done to spiders, people are saying the same exact situation should not produce so many different results to the point at which the community has noticed.

When all your indicators show a HIT, yet no additional damage is done, then there is some sort of issue.
How is a newer player supposed to gauge whether or not everything his instruments and visual indications show is actually happening? I think that has a lot of newer players scratching their heads.

Hitting them is not the problem... People thinking that their shots are just sliding off the Spider is.
Now this doesn't happen every single time with the Spider, BUT here is the problem, are you ready for it..??
There is NO CONSISTENCY.

#1. Sometimes all indicators show a hit and what seems to be very little damage is done. (armor or no armor left)
#2. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and all damage seems to be done. (armor or no armor left)
#3. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and ZERO damage seems to be done. (armor or no armor left)
#4. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and the Spider dies even though he had what looks like full armor.
#5. Sometimes no sensors show hit, only visual confirmation of round hitting, and Spider takes no damage.
#6. Sometimes no sensors show hit, only visual confirmation of round hitting, and Spider dies.

These issues do NOT exist soley with the Spider, and this is NOT always the case with killing an enemy Spider.
However, the frequency of uncertainty as it relates to the damage the Spider takes depending on examples #1 to #6, is quite apparent in comments from players in the community.

Is this a Hit Box issue..?? Unknown, and perhaps there is no design flaw with the mech itself.
Is this HSR issue..?? Possible, but we haven't been given any concrete info to look at.

Is there no issue at all..?? More then highly unlikely, the amount of feedback sighting the same issues over, and over, and over, and over, and over again by multitudes of players across the board, and even from those that pilot Spiders says otherwise.

I ran a Spider©-Trial for a few rounds one day, and I was surprised at the inconsistency of the damage I was taking considering I was weaving in and out of large formations of the enemy, I just couldn't believe that 5 mechs at a a time all had so awful AIM that they couldn't manage to get my Armor past yellow, and that my arms or legs didn't come off after the amount of fire I received.. Maybe I wasn't being hit as much as I thought...

It's funny that using the same approach to aiming and hitting other lights going similar speeds is seen to produce different results by players, this indicated by comments I have read.
I will say this, I know the Locust has nowhere near the armor of a Spider, but I have obliterated so many Locusts with FAR less effort then I have Spiders using the same approach..
Is my AIM off that much..?? Possible, but highly unlikely, and I have seen examples #1 through #6 myself to varying degrees.

No issue with how the Spider takes damage?
Oh well, only the future will tell huh..??
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Edited by Odins Fist, 05 November 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Oni Ralas]

ManDaisy, on 05 November 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

His Aston... gets him the ladies.

It gets far more sausauge attention than female. The only thing worse than the Aston were my MKIV Supras (**** you F&F for ruining such a good car)

[Murphy7]

Well stated, Odin's Fist.

[Effectz]

Edited by Effectz, 05 November 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Abivard]

There was No need to fix the no HUD bug, us better shots don't need it anyways... but no, you all have to have your HUD's.

Why would anyone NOT abusing an exploit/bug not want it fixed?

[Hillslam]

Three points:

1 - Peef getting rolled by the forum backlash is hilarious
2 - His assumption that all good shots are only playing with clans is hilarious
3 - Spider unhittability is reproducible. Here's how -


Take on a spider with a ping ~50 or so. You will blow the {Scrap} out of it. Easy Peasy.
Now, Take on a spider rocking a 140-180 or worse ping (like the pings our european friends get). Gooooood luck.

Done.

Edited by Hillslam, 05 November 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[wirikidor]

Just because "pro players" (LOL) don't use spiders doesn't mean there isn't a problem. As much as I'd love to take the word of such a professional gamer, I'm going to have to go with my own experiences which include:

1) Hitting a spider with an AC/20 and watching it die... w00t I can aim!
2) Hitting another spider with an AC/20 (getting confirmation of the hit) and watching it shrug it off like it was nothing, and then kill me.
3) Watching groups of 4 to 11 people trying to kill 1 spider... in many... MANY matches... I've seen commandos and and locusts team killed by accident by sweeping lasers in attempts to leg spiders.

Frankly there are so many spiders running around in PUGs now that I run mechs for the sole purpose of killing spiders.

I think most of these spider threads will go away though once they remove it as a trial mech option.

[Asyres]

I have never seen anyone claim that the Spider is overpowered for a reason other than its totally unpredictable hitreg issues. I don't think anyone surprised by the notion that a mech with lots of disadvantages and one avantage that you can't rely on isn't popular in 12v12.

So what is the purpose of this thread?

[Oni Ralas]

Asyres, on 05 November 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

So what is the purpose of this thread?

To pay hommage to all that is PEEF....get with the program Asyres!

[CDLord HHGD]

PEEFsmash, on 05 November 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

If Spiders could replace Jenners and Ravens in competitive play, it would be the first thing we would do. They weigh less, which would free up more tonnage for the real mechs that go out there and win the game (aka Assaults).

Do you really think that you have found some super-secret imbalance that none of the rest of us know about? You think you found out that the Spider is "broken" and those who spend hours and hours testing mechs just never thought to try it out? We all try it out, and guess what, if you play against people who can aim, Spiders are terrible. None of the top teams use them. All top teams use mainly Jenners, and occasionally Ravens. We try Spiders every once in awhile, but it never works out. Why? Again, the general population is absolutely horrible at aiming, they think they hit when they don't, and they misrepresent their own abilities.

TL;DR: You think Spiders are invincible because you cannot hit them. The best players in this game might find Spiders as a bit of an annoyance, but they are one of the worst and least-used mechs in the game at a competitive level because they are bad against good players. Next time you want to make a thread about how broken and OP Spiders are, remember that the reason you are saying it is because you haven't taken the time to learn how to aim or position yourself properly, and if you were good you would not think they are "too good." Saying you think Spiders are "too good" is a perfect litmus test for detecting a bad or average player, because there is a grand total of 0, zilch, nada top players who think Spiders are "too good" EVEN IF they think they have hit detection problems. Remember that, you are calling attention to your own poor play by saying you think Spiders are overpowered.

Had to point out that the TL:DR section is longer than the OP......

[PEEFsmash]

Asyres, on 05 November 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

I have never seen anyone claim that the Spider is overpowered for a reason other than its totally unpredictable hitreg issues. I don't think anyone surprised by the notion that a mech with lots of disadvantages and one avantage that you can't rely on isn't popular in 12v12.

So what is the purpose of this thread?

Well you put it in a good way. There might be one slight advantage with the hit detection stuff, but it does not make enough of a difference to make it better than Jenners/Ravens. I'm still not so sure there is an actual hit detection problem on spiders ABOVE AND BEYOND hit detection problems that happen on all mechs (I regularly misregister on Victors, Highlanders, and Atlases...but it is often harder to notice because when you hit an Atlas with an AC5 it barely changes armor colors even when it registers, so when you get the red flash but no change in armor color, it is much more difficult to notice).

If people understood what you do, namely that even if there is some sort of hit detection problem, Spiders are not any good and really not worth a thousand forum threads per week, then I'd be fine. If Spiders died as fast as Locusts, they would probably be just as bad as Locusts, so as the team works on hitbox/hit registration fixes on Spiders, they should work on simultaneous significant buffs to them as well. If everyone agreed on that, I would be happy!

[Sowaka]

I'd argue that mechs should be balanced for all skill ranges, but that's just me.

[Odins Fist]

Hmmmmm...
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Interesting Mention of tweaks and investigations..