125 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

So I see the new hero 'mech, the Jester, is an all energy Catapult.

This would be fine if you could, say, run 4 large lasers or the like on it. But no, thanks to Ghost Heat, the only way to effectively do something like that is with external macros.

In fact, the ONLY way you can fill the slots on the Jester is to either go horribly mismatched guns (2 Large, 2 PPC, 2 other lasers) or medium style (2 large 4 meds) and both are garbage.

With the limits on PPC/Large Lasers starting at 2, this makes energy boats a stupid waste of time - including curb stomping already down on their luck boats like the Awesome.

Unless some kind of override limit is put in for energy boats.. I wish they'd just stop producing them because they are less than worthless.

[Trauglodyte]

Because the Battletech Universe wasn't imagined and created around the concept of the fluff pilots pushing one button and watching their enemies melt. Unfortunately, due to both game design and laziness on the part of players, which sadly gets dressed up and disguised as efficiency and skill, everyone wants to Alpha every target they see. Then, they winge and moan about ghost heat when it is their own play style which created the hinderance that they hate so much.

[Khobai]

Time to remove ghost heat. Mechs like the Jester make it blatantly obvious why it was such a terrible idea in the first place.

Can we explore some other options? Like making PPCs do splash damage?

[mania3c]

Seriously, I have 4 large lasers on few of my mechs and it's really not problem..just saying..

[Sandpit]

I run all kinds of energy boats and don't feel penalized. I also don't try to use alpha strikes as my primary mode of attack. I know how to chain fire and have a split second of patience before I fire off the next weapon. It's not a boat deterrent, it's an alpha deterrent.

If I can do it, than anyone can.

5LL Stalkers
4 LL Bmasters

and RARELY (even on therma and caustic) do I ever overheat

[PEEFsmash]

You make it sound like they are actively and continually nerfing energy boats.....but what, since Ghost Heat, have they done to make you think that?

[Oni Ralas]

Ghost heat - so I thought - was never intended to be a permanent fixture in MWO. It was a stop gap measure put in place while deeper balancing/issues were addressed.

It had lead us to a very weird place for energy builds. Ballistics are now currently king of the hill (ask anyone in any elo bracket) in terms of risk vs. reward. Sad...I love lasers!

[Khobai]

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You make it sound like they are actively and continually nerfing energy boats.....but what, since Ghost Heat, have they done to make you think that?

Its not that theyre actively nerfing energy boats that concerns me.

What concerns me is that they're continually releasing mechs with 6 energy hardpoints and expecting people to buy them when theyre horrible.

[FupDup]

I think this is more about the overall heat system and not just GH specifically. Molasses-slow dissipation makes energy weapons into high-alpha low-endurance in MWO when they have traditionally been the opposite.

[GroovYChickeN]

Khobai, on 05 November 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Time to remove ghost heat. Mechs like the Jester make it blatantly obvious why it was such a terrible idea in the first place.

Wut?

How?

Unless you are putting 4 ppcs or 4 LL in it Ghost heat doesn't even touch it.

[PEEFsmash]

Khobai, on 05 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Its not that theyre actively nerfing energy boats that concerns me.

What concerns me is that they're continually releasing mechs with 6 energy hardpoints and expecting people to buy them when theyre horrible.

2 ERPPCs high mounted with JJs? Horrible?

Haha I guess you'll find out.

[Khobai]

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Unless you are putting 4 ppcs or 4 LL in it Ghost heat doesn't even touch it.

Exactly and 4 LL should not even be affected by Ghost heat. Ghost heat was intended to nerf ppcs but nerfed every other weapon instead, and people are still putting 2 ppcs on everything. Ghost heat did the exact opposite of what it intended, so it needs to be removed.

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2 ERPPCs high mounted with JJs? Horrible?

It is horrible. That's horrendous heat with no ballistics to fall back on. Plus youre paying $20 for it. Highlanders are FREE. Seriously just play a Highlander its what PGI clearly wants.

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I think this is more about the overall heat system and not just GH specifically. Molasses-slow dissipation makes energy weapons into high-alpha low-endurance in MWO when they have traditionally been the opposite.

Absolutely but I dont think PGI is going to touch the heat system this late into development. Best we can hope for is removal of ghost heat and some tweaking on energy weapon heat values.

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Victor Morson, on 05 November 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

So I see the new hero 'mech, the Jester, is an all energy Catapult.

This would be fine if you could, say, run 4 large lasers or the like on it. But no, thanks to Ghost Heat, the only way to effectively do something like that is with external macros.

In fact, the ONLY way you can fill the slots on the Jester is to either go horribly mismatched guns (2 Large, 2 PPC, 2 other lasers) or medium style (2 large 4 meds) and both are garbage.

With the limits on PPC/Large Lasers starting at 2, this makes energy boats a stupid waste of time - including curb stomping already down on their luck boats like the Awesome.

Unless some kind of override limit is put in for energy boats.. I wish they'd just stop producing them because they are less than worthless.

Every mech doesn't need to be an alpha warrior. The ghost heat mechanic is to prevent energy boating *alphas* - you can still run 4ll, but you just can't alpha unless you can tolerate the penalty. The majority of the users on the forum want "click click kill", and that's not very fun or engaging for anyone. Forcing users to stagger/ripple fire will ALSO force them to maneuver, plan, observe, and react. It also encourages teamwork, i.e. I do a few volleys, am running hot, so I drop down while a teammate pops up to provide fire while I'm venting heat. It's a perfectly fine balancing mechanic, and works wonders for separating effective pilots from ineffective pilots. By forcing you to use some semblance of strategy, the game is better preparing you for more prolonged engagements.

[Trauglodyte]

The Jester is now the love child of the Highlander and Stalker. I wouldn't laugh at that. Double PPCs with Meds as backups. What isn't to love all while ignoring the Ghost Heat penalty. Hell, you can go with 5 Lrg Lasers and cruise around like the lighter version of Villz Stalker. The possibilities, if you manage your heat like you should, are kind of scary.

[Tyman4]

OP, Dang skippy. Just looked at the patch notes and ignored the mech, total write off. Y use it? Battlmaster and Thunderbolt also have spammed Energy hardpoints all over the place. They are not really useful except to fill with medium lazers. With 4 large lazers this mech might be a bit scary, but with ghost heat in the way, its an irrelevant build no matter what lazers are on it. Mayber 2 PPC 4 Med alternating at differenct ranges? It will always be too hot to be effective in Ballistic warrior online.

[Mercules]

You can't run 4 Large Lasers huh? So there is no way to put them on two triggers and use them in groups of two? I am pretty sure I see most 4 Large Laser builds including K2s doing that.

Mismatched weapons? Um... Welcome to the Battletech universe where your mech doesn't know how it will engage and the vast majority are equipped with a variety of weapon systems so that they can utilize them at different ranges. 2 ERLarge and 4 medium sounds about right to me.

[Victor Morson]

Trauglodyte, on 05 November 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Because the Battletech Universe wasn't imagined and created around the concept of the fluff pilots pushing one button and watching their enemies melt.

Do we really need to break out the list of 'mechs in TT that do exactly that, including a few Clan LPL boats with Targeting Computers again?

Mercules, on 05 November 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

You can't run 4 Large Lasers huh? So there is no way to put them on two triggers and use them in groups of two? I am pretty sure I see most 4 Large Laser builds including K2s doing that.

If you want to be effective with it you need to put it on a macro. Most 4 Large Laser K2s doing it effectively are running macros.

I don't want to use an external macro outside of the game for the purposes of playing the game.

Edited by Victor Morson, 05 November 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Fierostetz, on 05 November 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Every mech doesn't need to be an alpha warrior. The ghost heat mechanic is to prevent energy boating *alphas* - you can still run 4ll, but you just can't alpha unless you can tolerate the penalty. The majority of the users on the forum want "click click kill", and that's not very fun or engaging for anyone. Forcing users to stagger/ripple fire will ALSO force them to maneuver, plan, observe, and react. It also encourages teamwork, i.e. I do a few volleys, am running hot, so I drop down while a teammate pops up to provide fire while I'm venting heat. It's a perfectly fine balancing mechanic, and works wonders for separating effective pilots from ineffective pilots. By forcing you to use some semblance of strategy, the game is better preparing you for more prolonged engagements.

Ghost Heat doesn't accomplish any of that.

At all.

By forcing people to rippled fire and all of that stuff you just said, well, here's what really happens: We moved to guns you don't have to do that with.

So all it really did, in the end, was kill the Large Laser. It did absolutely nothing to my play style. Because remember kids, 2x AC/20 = The Devil (40 damage), 1x AC/20 3x SRM6 = A-OK (56 damage).

[Khobai]

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Because the Battletech Universe wasn't imagined and created around the concept of the fluff pilots pushing one button and watching their enemies melt.

Absolutely was. Battletech is the game that made the term "alphastrike" into an everyday vernacular.

[Victor Morson]

Khobai, on 05 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Its not that theyre actively nerfing energy boats that concerns me.

What concerns me is that they're continually releasing mechs with 6 energy hardpoints and expecting people to buy them when theyre horrible.

That's my biggest problem too, aside from killing several 'mechs I really liked.