125 replies to this topic

[3rdworld]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

facepalm. how is communication even possible with this? We all know where it came from. But what you BT people don't get, is that MW stands on it's own, it always has. And side by side, MW as a computer game has ALWAYS BEEN BETTER than BT as a hex game.

Regressing MW (square peg) into BT (round hole) is stupid.

Edited by 3rdworld, 05 November 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

LawDog, on 05 November 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

"But but, i spent MC on a mech............shouldnt I PWNZ?" There is the issue gents. The P2W mentality so many of these game have brought on.

Bah, most who say that are no doubt baddies and will not matter how good or bad the mech is as the end result will be the same for that particular crowd.

[Mercules]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

facepalm. how is communication even possible with this? We all know where it came from. But what you BT people don't get, is that MW stands on it's own, it always has. And side by side, MW as a computer game has ALWAYS BEEN BETTER than BT as a hex game.

Regressing MW (square peg) into BT (round hole) is futile and will only make a FPS/SIM suckier. The attempts to force MW to be just like BT are not helping the game to be better.

You know what Mechwarrior is without the Battletech universe? Not Mechwarrior. Battletech has a functional point to start from. While I agree that not everything fits if they had implemented some things according to Battletech mythos/TT rules LRMs wouldn't have had to fluctuate so wildly, ECM wouldn't have been broken for as long as it was, heat scales and damage would have been in proper order.

The problem with MWO from the start was that they didn't' follow BT rules. Oh, they followed a couple of them, but then ignored the vast majority. They were dead set on half the rules and that made half a game that didn't work.

Mechwarrior has never been balanced but the Battletech TT is with the inclusion of Battle Value. That is part of what PGI keeps missing. A Jenner with a standard engine, 4 medium lasers, single heat sinks, no Endo Steel is not = to a tweeked out Jenner with all the bells and whistles, much less a Commando.

[Sandpit]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

MW as a computer game has ALWAYS BEEN BETTER than BT as a hex game.

face palm as you, like SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many others on here, place their subjective opinion into statements of fact. Because YOU think it's better then it MUST be so. I'm not even going to point out any of the other fallacies in the rest of your statements

[East Indy]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

I run all kinds of energy boats and don't feel penalized. I also don't try to use alpha strikes as my primary mode of attack.

I . . . I sense causation between those two statements.

[Stelar 7]

aniviron, on 05 November 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Ghost heat was explicitly intended to have this effect of forcing players to chainfire and spread their damage to extend battle durations; unfortunately, it is only effective on lasers, ppcs, and ac20s. So yes, as long as there is ghost heat and that ghost heat does not affect ac2s, 5s, and 10s, energy boats are at a significant disadvantage.

AC 2 and 5 spread their damage exactly the same as lasers, by shooting it over a period of time. AC 10, not so much.

Why are so many of you AC haters so brutally oblivious to the total lack of pinpoint damage in AC2 and 5?

[sokitumi]

Mercules, on 05 November 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

You know what Mechwarrior is without the Battletech universe? Not Mechwarrior. Battletech has a functional point to start from. While I agree that not everything fits if they had implemented some things according to Battletech mythos/TT rules LRMs wouldn't have had to fluctuate so wildly, ECM wouldn't have been broken for as long as it was, heat scales and damage would have been in proper order.

The problem with MWO from the start was that they didn't' follow BT rules. Oh, they followed a couple of them, but then ignored the vast majority. They were dead set on half the rules and that made half a game that didn't work.

Mechwarrior has never been balanced but the Battletech TT is with the inclusion of Battle Value. That is part of what PGI keeps missing. A Jenner with a standard engine, 4 medium lasers, single heat sinks, no Endo Steel is not = to a tweeked out Jenner with all the bells and whistles, much less a Commando.

At least you understand my point even if you disagree. Beg's the questiion...Where's ghost heat in BT? Right they basically went with an arbitrary solution that makes no one happy, in order to force BT style configs...

[Mercules]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

At least you understand my point even if you disagree. Beg's the questiion...Where's ghost heat in BT? Right they basically went with an arbitrary solution that makes no one happy, in order to force BT style configs...

Makes me super happy. Never once ran into an issue with it. It wasn't to force BT style configs, but to balance BOATING and Alpha strikes. The fact that not boating encourages a typical BT config is a nice bonus feature.

[sokitumi]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

face palm as you, like SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many others on here, place their subjective opinion into statements of fact. Because YOU think it's better then it MUST be so. I'm not even going to point out any of the other fallacies in the rest of your statements

The inventor of the entire franchise admitted BT was unbalanced.

[Sandpit]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

The inventor of the entire franchise admitted BT was unbalanced.

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

MW as a computer game has ALWAYS BEEN BETTER than BT as a hex game.

Tell me again what the second statement above has to do with the first and how you feel MW is a better game than Btech is a fact.

*ahem* *cough cough* *ahem*

GHOST HEAT ONLY AFFECTS ALPHA STRIKES NOT BOATING IN GENERAL

Now maybe everyone QQing that ghost heat destroys any kind of build will read that statement. Understand it and realize their "arguments" against it are, for the most part, completely invalid

IF YOU USE CHAIN FIRE INSTEAD OF TRYING TO ALPHA STRIKE EVERY TIME YOU PULL THE TRIGGER IT DOESN'T PENALIZE YOU

A few things for those who want to argue the whole "I can get .05 damage over 3 seconds using this weapon instead" what you all conveniently forget to include when comparing things like this is the trade-off between things like ballistics and energy weapons.

an AC/10 weighs 7 tons plus one ton of ammo minimum and takes up 8 crit slots including the ammo for 10 damage. If you miss, you miss. You do pinpoint damage when you hit but once you run out of ammo you're screwed.

an LL weights 5 tons requires no ammo and only takes up 2 crit slots for 9 damage. If you miss with your initial shot you can walk it in and do some damage but by the same token you can also have a mech move during it's firing phase and either miss partially or causing damage to spread across multiple locations

It amazes me how any time a player is making these kinds of arguments they always "conveniently" forget to include things like this and only include the details that support their stance.

[Mercules]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

The inventor of the entire franchise admitted BT was unbalanced.

Got a reference link for that? I find it difficult to believe Weisman recovered the license for a game he considered unbalanced years after he sold it.

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

GHOST HEAT ONLY AFFECTS ALPHA STRIKES NOT BOATING IN GENERAL

Actually you have it backwards. Excluding the linkage of LPL and LL, the builds most penalized by GH are boats. People who do not carry "too many" of one specific weapon type can and do still alpha strike as much as they wish.

Remember, the term "alpha striking" means "to fire all of your weapons simultaneously." It doesn't matter what those weapons are, as long as they are all fired at the same time. 2 ML + 1 AC/20 + 3 SRM6 qualifies as an alpha strike just as much as 3 LL does.

Edited by FupDup, 05 November 2013 - 05:13 PM.

[aniviron]

Stelar 7, on 05 November 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

AC 2 and 5 spread their damage exactly the same as lasers, by shooting it over a period of time. AC 10, not so much.

Why are so many of you AC haters so brutally oblivious to the total lack of pinpoint damage in AC2 and 5?

AC2 and 5 do spread their damage, over time. But generally you see AC5s and 2s taken in at least pairs if not triplets; it's much easier to do 15-15-15-15-etc and hit a single component than doing .01 continuously for many seconds in a row.

I wouldn't really put myself in the category of AC hater, either. I petitioned fairly strongly for quite a while to make them better when all you were seeing was PPCs, SRMs, and LRMs; but the tables have turned, though admittedly not all the way around. But the fact remains that right now, mechs without ballistic slots (Excluding lights) are simply not competitive. This should be the first indicator that there is a problem, and it was how you could tell PPCs were a problem- any mech unable to mount them was bad. Well, now it's the same but with autocannons. That should be a sign that something has to change.

In this case, I believe the ghost heat limits on other weapons need to be eased, or AC2s, 5s, and 10s need ghost heat penalties. After all, why should they be the only heat-generating weapons in the game without them?

[Sandpit]

FupDup, on 05 November 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Actually you have it backwards. Excluding the linkage of LPL and LL, the builds most penalized by GH are boats. People who do not carry "too many" of one specific weapon type can and do still alpha strike as much as they wish.

Remember, the term "alpha striking" means "to fire all of your weapons simultaneously." It doesn't matter what those weapons are, as long as they are all fired at the same time. 2 ML + 1 AC/20 + 3 SRM6 qualifies as an alpha strike just as much as 3 LL does.

You are..... I dunno what you are trying to do here other than be a rules lawyer. Sorry, I'm not biting and you're not proving anything except what I've already stated. I can boat 5LLs and do just fine without ever overheating because I understand how to use chain fire and not "pew pew pew die die die all weapons are go!" every time I pull the trigger.

You can try all you want but no, that's not the spirit of what we are talking about here. Technically a Spider carrying 1ML is going to alpha strike every time it shoots. It's not the same and you know it. Anyone who can't see the difference is.... well either jsut trying to be argumentative or realizing that being exceptionally technical about the "legal definition" is the only chance they have to counter someone.

Common sense tells you that even though the technical definitions are the same the practicality if the two examples are completely different.

Even without a ghost heat penalty a mech firing off the salvo is going to overheat if they ALPHA STRIKE those weapons.That's a total of 26 heat per alpha strike.

[GalaxyBluestar]

so are the top teir mechs using multiple laser arrays? no? then clearly something's holding them back.

yes the 5LL stalker or 4LL phract is usable... against dregs, the kind you can fire multiple bursts into the back and they don't even turn around or run away. face to face with a mix pinpoint damage loadout or even a ballistic boat it's obvious who's going to keep pumping the damage on whilst another guy is in a shaky smoke screen trying to hold hit scan lasers on target and not overheat before the enemy does.

aniviron, on 05 November 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

AC2 and 5 do spread their damage, over time. But generally you see AC5s and 2s taken in at least pairs if not triplets; it's much easier to do 15-15-15-15-etc and hit a single component than doing .01 continuously for many seconds in a row.

only by pilots aiming errors they are like ppc and gauss, frontload pinpoint damage, they have no duration to spread damage like lasers. also yes they're the alpha strikers with speed and no heat holding them back over greater ranges too than large lasers, you can't beat them at their own game so skill up or don't use an energy boat.

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

I can boat 5LLs and do just fine without ever overheating because I understand how to use chain fire and not "pew pew pew die die die all weapons are go!" every time I pull the trigger.

so can other builds and guess what? they're incuring less heat because in general they arn't high heat energy users. you will be forced into submission over time which is why energy mechs have always been alpha strikers. ghost heat is an extra fat nail in the coffin that is really a broken heat threashold system.

i don't mind GH so much as it's covering up lol builds like 4+ppc but lasers spread their damga so much i don't know why it was used just as heavily against them other than the devs thought they'd curb the next meta. pffft. so i wouldn't get rid of ghost heat until a suitable replacement mechanic and overhall fix is made. the problem is that doesn't seem to be happening so now the only advantage energy boats had to cover themselves against never ending chain fire mix builds has been snatched. people are out in their duo builds or ballistic boats laughing as they can quickly stack up damage and we have to slowly chainfire and lose the dps race or runaway to cooldown or die shutting down before them.

basically you need a lot more cunning to overcome your faster heat buildup compared to the rambo cannon mechs and rambo players trying to get lucky filling your face with shake and smoke and being allowed to get away with it as heat hardly effects them. and BTW GH works in amounts of weapons used over time, you chainfire too fast you incur GH. group fire with 3 LL you get GH so it's not just alphas and 2 LL hasn't the range or damage to be on par with AC boats in the DPS over time race.

yep energy boats are very good. i recommend 3!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 05 November 2013 - 05:40 PM.

[Sandpit]

GalaxyBluestar, on 05 November 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

so are the top teir mechs using multiple laser arrays? no? then clearly something's holding them back.

yes the 5LL stalker or 4LL phract is usable... against dregs, the kind you can fire multiple bursts into the back and they don't even turn around or run away. face to face with a mix pinpoint damage loadout or even a ballistic boat it's obvious who's going to keep pumping the damage on whilst another guy is in a shaky smoke screen trying to hold hit scan lasers on target and not overheat before the enemy does.



only by pilots aiming errors they are like ppc and gauss, frontload pinpoint damage, they have no duration to spread damage like lasers. also yes they're the alpha strikers with speed and no heat holding them back over greater ranges too than large lasers, you can't beat them at their own game so skill up or don't use an energy boat.



so can other builds and guess what? they're incuring less heat because in general they arn't high heat energy users. you will be forced into submission over time which is why energy mechs have always been alpha strikers. ghost heat is an extra fat nail in the coffin that is really a broken heat threashold system.

i don't mind GH so much as it's covering up lol builds like 4+ppc but lasers spread their damga so much i don't know why it was used just as heavily against them other than the devs thought they'd curb the next meta. pffft. so i wouldn't get rid of ghost heat until a suitable replacement mechanic and overhall fix is made. the problem is that doesn't seem to be happening so now the only advantage energy boats had to cover themselves against never ending chain fire mix builds has been snatched. people are out in their duo builds or ballistic boats laughing as they can quickly stack up damage and we have to slowly chainfire and lose the dps race or runaway to cooldown or die shutting down before them.

basically you need a lot more cunning to overcome your faster heat buildup compared to the rambo cannon mechs and rambo players trying to get lucky filling your face with shake and smoke and being allowed to get away with it as heat hardly effects them. and BTW GH works in amounts of weapons used over time, you chainfire too fast you incur GH. group fire with 3 LL you get GH so it's not just alphas and 2 LL hasn't the range or damage to be on par with AC boats in the DPS over time race.

yep energy boats are very good. i recommend 3!

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

you all conveniently forget to include when comparing things like this is the trade-off between things like ballistics and energy weapons.

an AC/10 weighs 7 tons plus one ton of ammo minimum and takes up 8 crit slots including the ammo for 10 damage. If you miss, you miss. You do pinpoint damage when you hit but once you run out of ammo you're screwed.

an LL weights 5 tons requires no ammo and only takes up 2 crit slots for 9 damage. If you miss with your initial shot you can walk it in and do some damage but by the same token you can also have a mech move during it's firing phase and either miss partially or causing damage to spread across multiple locations

It amazes me how any time a player is making these kinds of arguments they always "conveniently" forget to include things like this and only include the details that support their stance.

Once again......

[Victor Morson]

sokitumi, on 05 November 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

At least you understand my point even if you disagree. Beg's the questiion...Where's ghost heat in BT? Right they basically went with an arbitrary solution that makes no one happy, in order to force BT style configs...

When actually fixing the weapon fixed the problem, adding negative heat effects (like slowing movement and shaky/fadey huds) would have been fine to punish hot builds. Ghost Heat was never needed and continues to be poorly thought out.

I'd rather this thread not turn into a TT discussion of course, but there is a middle ground everyone is happy with, and that would have been the negative heat effects from the core game. Because they look cool and have actual tactical impact; instead of forcing me to worry about some invisible limit that punishes you hard for incorrect timing with absolutely no UI for said timing on top of everything else.

Edited by Victor Morson, 05 November 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Once again......

once again it's nice to forget the ac5 and ac2 stackability which the best by definition of competitaviness are using. also the ammo involved can shread enough armour because there's enough being loaded on the mech. i hardly ever see mechs run out of ammo these days so ammo being drawn out before heat shuting the energy mech down isn't happening. this is why Ac's mixed with the heaviest hitter like ppc's are so polular. best of all worlds with little of the drawback. also keeping your aim is easier than balancing your heat, ac boats are used because they don't need as much skill to use. in order to get close to their output you have to use more tactical positioning and awearness. skill climbs does not make a good mech except for a few diehards. if you think there's just as many laser boats around as much as ballistics or missles boats then you must be playing a different game.

Roadbeer, on 05 November 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Key words I've picked out along the way from the OP...

Competitive
Maximize


So, what we have here is a meta-humper who can't think past high damage alpha strikes. There will be no reasoning because it doesn't fit into their narrative of how the game MUST be played to be competitive...

/yawn

/thread

says the guy who thinks the game MUST be played on TS. so you think the game is unplayable without premading it but it's okay when a whole weapon class is now only in a supportive roll like an srm 4 or a bunch of machine guns.

fascinating

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 05 November 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 05 November 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

You are..... I dunno what you are trying to do here other than be a rules lawyer. Sorry, I'm not biting and you're not proving anything except what I've already stated. I can boat 5LLs and do just fine without ever overheating because I understand how to use chain fire and not "pew pew pew die die die all weapons are go!" every time I pull the trigger.

You can try all you want but no, that's not the spirit of what we are talking about here. Technically a Spider carrying 1ML is going to alpha strike every time it shoots. It's not the same and you know it. Anyone who can't see the difference is.... well either jsut trying to be argumentative or realizing that being exceptionally technical about the "legal definition" is the only chance they have to counter someone.

Common sense tells you that even though the technical definitions are the same the practicality if the two examples are completely different.

Even without a ghost heat penalty a mech firing off the salvo is going to overheat if they ALPHA STRIKE those weapons.That's a total of 26 heat per alpha strike.

You're missing the point. If you used mixed weapon types, you wouldn't need chain fire (on a side note, chain fire is often completely stupid even with GH factored in, you're better off using split group fire). You could do "pew pew pew die die die all weapons are go!" every time you pulled the trigger. With complete impunity, and nobody would call you out for it.

Your 5 LL build is only forced to use derpfire mode because it's a boat; meanwhile, I get to go "pew pew pew die die die all weapons are go!" every single time I see an enemy, because I build around the magic number of weapons. Just because it's not all the same weapon doesn't make it not an alpha strike.

Edited by FupDup, 05 November 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[Sandpit]

The assumptions running abound in this thread......

Some are just beyond seeing any view point but their own and making thigns easier for them.

I chain fire almost all of my weapons. That's how I play. The how I fire. I have numerous reasons for doing so and do just fine with both damage and wins.
AC2
AC5
you don't compare those to LLs, you compare those to SL and ML and the same exact things apply when it comes to tonnage, crits, and ammo trade-offs. You once again pick and choose what "facts" you want to use to strengthen your opinion and view.