284 replies to this topic

[Oshay]

Much, much later. Victor didn't become Precentor Martial until 3061, and even then, it was mostly a gimmick to keep his sister from being elected First Lord. His becoming Precentor Martial arguably contributed directly to the Jihad, since it pretty much proved to a lot of old school ComStar who had stayed loyal that the fix was in, and outsiders were indeed running the joint. A lot of fence-sitters began to defect to the Word en masse, and ComStar began hemorrhaging troops in droves.

[pbiggz]

dal10, on 12 November 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Not sure what honor code they would have violated. they legitimately beat every other clan to terra. i don't remember there being any rule saying they had to conquer every planet on the way. they would simply be doing what the clans did when they bypassed some planets to conquer later. they just bypassed a lot more planets while aiming for the biggest fight they could find.

Remember when the Smoke Jaguars resorted to orbital bombardment on the planet Turtle Bay in the draconis combine. They lost considerable face just for doing that.

[dal10]

which is completely different than what i proposed. they shot at things that couldn't shoot back. comstar was completely capable of shooting back.

[pbiggz]

Not exactly, the point I'm trying to make is that the clans did not plan their military operations like the Inner Sphere did (with exception to the wolves, but only to a certain degree). Operation revival was intended to be fought like a series of trials of possession. They would do this until they made it to Terra. If they were able to jump straight to terra, their code of honour prevented them from doing so, and a failure to abide by those laws would put them even more at odds with the other clans.

[dal10]

which leaves the question in how many clans would back the play just to stop the wolves from winning.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Actually the one big question is did the Battle of Tukayyid and the resulting truce actually save the Clans from an even worse defeat in 3053?

By the time of the Battle of Tukayyid in May 3052 the dynamic of the invasion has completely changed.

For a moment consider if when Comstar learned that Terra was the clans overarching goal, and instead of drawing a line in the sand and daring the Clans to step across it, they decided to use a bit more in the way of intrigue and proxy fighting to defend Terra.

In short consider if Comstar had decided to back Hanse Davion and Theodore Kurita, and let them pay the blood price in dealing with the Clans.

Notably Comstar is no longer giving detailed intelligence on FedCom and Combine defenses, troop movements, units, and planetary garrisons. It is a huge advantage that the Clans would no longer enjoy.

Comstar would no longer be administering the worlds the Clans had taken. The clans planet hopping Blitzkrig warfare is partly dependent on the ability to quickly subdue and then resupply and move those frontline units on the the next target. They would also no longer enjoy not having to stress their logistical supply lines to provide for the conquered planets well being. (remember even in the lostech renaissance of the early 3050's most Inner Sphere worlds are not wholly self-suffient but require a fair amount of logistical assistance from the surrounding star systems their Successor States provide) Now the Clans would have to do this heavy lifting.

Its not until late 3051 that the clans face anything close to the successor states working together. The only real instance of it is Hanse Davion sending mercs under his employ (Wolfs Dragoons, and the Kell Hounds) to the Combine capital to reinforce its defense.

By may 3052 the following conditions have changed in the Clan invasion:

They are no longer a surprise pirate attack from the Periphery.

The Clan represent the primary threat to the security of the Federated Commonwealth and Draconis Combine. Only now are both government adjusted to this new dynamic.

The Draconis Combine has recalled 90% of its units from the Davion and all of its front line units from the Steiner borders, and sent them to create fortified wall against the clans advance. Notably they have changed their logistical supply distribution system to reflect this and support the Combine armies fighting the clans. In short its not until 3052 that the Combine is committed to a total war against the Clans. Until this had been done the Combine had effectively been fighting the Clans with one hand tied behind its back. And the Combine is receiving refit kits (which would upgrade a low tech 3025 era mech to Star League era mech) and new Battlemech production from House Marik.

The Federated Commonwealth meanwhile had sent almost the entirety of House Steiners line units and the majority of House Davions line units into House Steiner. The FedComs have stripped their Marik and Kurita border units to the Clan front, and they had sent part of their Liao border units as well. Conversely the FedComs have also resigned themselves to a Clan first war strategy and have adjusted their logistical supply line to support their armies. The FedComs will also be receiving refit kits as well as new Battlemech production from House Marik. Also significantly the FedComs are both the largest combined military organization in the Inner Sphere they had 162 Steiner and 100 davion line units at the start of the invasion, the Draconis Combine had been estimated at 90 by comparison), as well as the largest industrial and economic power around.

If the lore had wanted t be played out, Comstar could have supported a IS counter offensive against the clan occupied worlds. The FedComs significantly should have been in position to throw a Com Guards sized army group against the Jade Falcon/steel Viper occupation zone.

Hell looking at it the Federated Commonwealth should have been in position by summer of 3052 to throw twice the military might the Com Guards employed at Tukayyid.

Edited by Tyrnea Smurf, 12 November 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[dal10]

the only issue with that is without tukayyid the fed suns would have to worry about being split by the wolves.

[Alaskan Nobody]

And the fact that the above awesome post relies on having sane leadership for Comstar.
Instead they had Myndo Waterly.

[dal10]

also i thought that fedcom had 162 regiments of battlemechs total?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 12 November 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Actually the one big question is did the Battle of Tukayyid and the resulting truce actually save the Clans from an even worse defeat in 3053?

By the time of the Battle of Tukayyid in May 3052 the dynamic of the invasion has completely changed.

For a moment consider if when Comstar learned that Terra was the clans overarching goal, and instead of drawing a line in the sand and daring the Clans to step across it, they decided to use a bit more in the way of intrigue and proxy fighting to defend Terra.

In short consider if Comstar had decided to back Hanse Davion and Theodore Kurita, and let them pay the blood price in dealing with the Clans.

Notably Comstar is no longer giving detailed intelligence on FedCom and Combine defenses, troop movements, units, and planetary garrisons. It is a huge advantage that the Clans would no longer enjoy.

Comstar would no longer be administering the worlds the Clans had taken. The clans planet hopping Blitzkrig warfare is partly dependent on the ability to quickly subdue and then resupply and move those frontline units on the the next target. They would also no longer enjoy not having to stress their logistical supply lines to provide for the conquered planets well being. (remember even in the lostech renaissance of the early 3050's most Inner Sphere worlds are not wholly self-suffient but require a fair amount of logistical assistance from the surrounding star systems their Successor States provide) Now the Clans would have to do this heavy lifting.

Its not until late 3051 that the clans face anything close to the successor states working together. The only real instance of it is Hanse Davion sending mercs under his employ (Wolfs Dragoons, and the Kell Hounds) to the Combine capital to reinforce its defense.

By may 3052 the following conditions have changed in the Clan invasion:

They are no longer a surprise pirate attack from the Periphery.

The Clan represent the primary threat to the security of the Federated Commonwealth and Draconis Combine. Only now are both government adjusted to this new dynamic.

The Draconis Combine has recalled 90% of its units from the Davion and all of its front line units from the Steiner borders, and sent them to create fortified wall against the clans advance. Notably they have changed their logistical supply distribution system to reflect this and support the Combine armies fighting the clans. In short its not until 3052 that the Combine is committed to a total war against the Clans. Until this had been done the Combine had effectively been fighting the Clans with one hand tied behind its back. And the Combine is receiving refit kits (which would upgrade a low tech 3025 era mech to Star League era mech) and new Battlemech production from House Marik.

The Federated Commonwealth meanwhile had sent almost the entirety of House Steiners line units and the majority of House Davions line units into House Steiner. The FedComs have stripped their Marik and Kurita border units to the Clan front, and they had sent part of their Liao border units as well. Conversely the FedComs have also resigned themselves to a Clan first war strategy and have adjusted their logistical supply line to support their armies. The FedComs will also be receiving refit kits as well as new Battlemech production from House Marik. Also significantly the FedComs are both the largest combined military organization in the Inner Sphere they had 162 Steiner and 100 davion line units at the start of the invasion, the Draconis Combine had been estimated at 90 by comparison), as well as the largest industrial and economic power around.

If the lore had wanted t be played out, Comstar could have supported a IS counter offensive against the clan occupied worlds. The FedComs significantly should have been in position to throw a Com Guards sized army group against the Jade Falcon/steel Viper occupation zone.

Hell looking at it the Federated Commonwealth should have been in position by summer of 3052 to throw twice the military might the Com Guards employed at Tukayyid.

No the question is, had Operation Revival been prosecuted the same way as Operation Klondike, how decimated would the IS have been?

If ALL the Clans had attacked ALL the Successor States, the end result would have been quite different. If the CC was fighting off Clans themselves & the FWL had no freedom to supply the DC or FC with mechs, modular kits & general supplies, history would be quite different. Let us not forget that the SS got their ***** handed to them & the only pauses they got were from extremely rare victories & a fluke encounter that killed the ilKhan.



Era Report 3052

This is from the meeting on Outreach during the YoP, after the ilKhan got killed.

Quote

Wolf hit a button on his podium. The room lights dimmed as a holographic map of the Inner Sphere burned to life in the center of the semi-circle. It slowly rotated so everyone could get a good look, then it split into smaller representations of itself, with one hovering before each delegation's table. As Victor leaned forward to study the map, fear writhed like a snake through his belly.

Normally the Successor States and the worlds they claimed formed a rough circle of star systems approximately 370 light years in diameter, with the circle centered on Terra. On this map, however, a huge chunk had been bitten out of the circle, making it a fat crescent with both horns pointing up and away from the chamber floor. Though the ravaged Free Rasalhague Republic lay at the center of the conquered area, bites had also been taken out of both the Lyran sector of the Federated Commonwealth and from the Draconis Combine.

Victor leaned forward toward his father. "I didn't realize the Combine had been hit so hard. They've lost as many worlds as have we."

Hanse pressed his lips together into a thin line. "I daresay, from the expression on Theodore's face, he was not aware that we'd been hard-hit either. Wolf's intelligence network is very good. Things are much worse than any of us dared imagine."

Wolf waved a hand to include all the maps. "As you can see, the situation is most grave. The Free Rasalhague Republic has lost its capital and over half its worlds. The invaders have also made substantial gains in the Lyran Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine. In less than a year, they have managed to take more worlds than changed hands in the Fourth Succession War, and the efforts to stop them have been less than effective.

Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 2 - Blood Legacy

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 November 2013 - 04:34 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 November 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

No the question is, had Operation Revival been prosecuted the same way as Operation Klondike, how decimated would the IS have been?

This.
To get an idea how strong the clans must have been.. the SLDF-Field Manual (while absolutely boring) is awesome. I believe that in this work more units are listed than in all FieldManuals of all Houses together.

Not to mention that reintroduced Technology - while growing in number since the War of 39 those tech is still few. And you really need ER-PPCs, Gauss Rifle and Double Heatsinks to stop the clans.

I can remember a battle where i used a lance of 3060 Tech 2 Mechs vs a company of tech level 1 (pirate) mechs. it was like cutting butter with a hot knife. (balanced around BV) - nearly every round a mech from that company died...its light mechs were not able to out run my mediums, while they didn't have neighter range or fire power to stop my Hauptmanns.

Same for clans. The fast tech 1 Mechs wouldn't be fast enough. And you really need supperior numbers. I would think at IS 1 vs Clan...you need rougly 3 Clan Omnis to deal the same damage (depends on the variants) - lets suggest the Clans would not use those gimped Clan Omni Mechs from 3050 instead uses those Omnis Min/Maxed (ES und FF on Nova and Hellbringer - reduced fixed Heatsinks for Warhawk, Gargoyle Executioner) more speed for Vulture, lower speed for Hellbringer (to close the gap Night Gyr and Nova Cat even when the invasion happened)

The Clans would have simple steam rolled the IS. Some may say the IS was capable of stoping the Clans at Luthien...but look at the units they used. Wolf Dragoons and Kell Hounds were seriously damaged, not to mention the units of House Kurita. And last not least - this defeat and the loose of so many Clansmen didn't stoped both clans to participate at the battle of tukkayyid.

It may be 10 vs 12 with star league tech but its clearly 5 vs 12 or even 5 vs 16 when IS uses Los Tech Mechs.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 November 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

I know this is old but...

dal10, on 11 November 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

you always have the right to an opinion, just like you always have the right to voice it. you just must be prepared to deal with the consequences of said opinion. I have a lot of opinions that run so contrary to public morals that it isn't funny. I voice most of these opinions in a public manner, i literally could be ostracized for life.

For example, there really needs to be a much stronger form of birth control. Limit the number of kids someone can have. Moment you hit that number, sterilize the gal before she leaves the hospital.

No one would ever agree to it, and so many would try to get out of it. but i am more wary of the human population spiraling out of control to the point that we kill off the entire species than being nice there.

or maybe i am just a bad person, who knows.

No, you're just speaking a hard truth. Earth can hold and support only so many people.

Edited by Nathan K, 13 November 2013 - 06:19 AM.

[Xelchon]

pbiggz, on 05 November 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

They knew they couldn't win in a one on one battle so they made sure the clans would be drawn into a long grinding indirect slugfest where the comguards would be able to wear the clans down to nothing. If you actually look even deeper into tukayyid itself you will realize that the entire battle was a ploy by ulric kerensky designed to force the other clans to halt the invasion. He knew they would lose. And if they didn't, clan wolf was the closest to taking terra, which would have made them Ilclan, allowing them to order a halt to the invasion in any case.

This part explains how Comguards won strategically. The Ulric part also is especially important. Tbh Ulric had sent the other clans out there knowing they were to be chewed and wanted to educate them on the fact that they were not almighty. The reason he didn't plan the assault according to that? Was it to hog the glory for his own clan which he would use to realize his warden ends, or because he believed the other clans would never learn it without having experienced it? Ulric was an indecipherable man, he was the most hardcore warden ever, and even if he wanted to impart with the knowledge, the clanners are by nature proud and obstinate and he hadn't the right to intrude in how other clans made war in the first place.
Anyway;
I've recently read the novels and am hoping to give some perspective about the Comguard army itself.
The Comguard were made of green units, true; but not to the extent you think them to be. First of all the Comguard had been being built for a long time to claim the entire IS themselves. It was unknown that the clans existed, but they were still there for a purpose. You can see, they were no pushovers.
The Clans' arrival simply wrecked all their long-wrought plans and threatened their entire existence, so they simply put on the facade that they were protectors of humanity against Clans and wanted to control the masses by appearing to be their saviours through this all, but I'm getting off-track here.
The Comguard was mainly formed of people that had been integrated into comstar in MANY ways. Among them were many people that had seen combat in the IS, Many people like Anastasius Focht himself as well. People going MIA all across the IS and all. Many, again were pirates and/or indoctrinated dregs of the society.
Also, In the years before; using the Fourth Succession War as an excuse the Comguard had attained the right to garrison their HPG outposts and it was also field experience especially with the general unrest of Succession War.
Comstar forces also held battle experiences as peacekeeping forces, using again those outposts as front.
Also on their battle performance. The Comguard forces were freaking ZEALOUS; and they had a perfectly strict chain of command.
They practically lived their entire lives in battle simulations. Knowing this, Precentor evacuated the entire Tukayyid; chose a planet with simple topography. By the time the battle was joined, Tukayyid was basically a simulated space.
I guess that about covers it in entirety.

Edited by Xelchon, 13 November 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

dal10, on 12 November 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

the only issue with that is without tukayyid the fed suns would have to worry about being split by the wolves.

At some point yes, however the Wolves if the invasion were to continue would have to begin splitting through the kurita/steiner border area (which is a border which has been fought over during the duration of the Succession Wars thus its both highly fortified and well defended on both sides. And again consider the Wolves success in the invasion is due to 2 huge factors,

1: They used the data Comstar was providing more effectively than other clans in no small part because of Natasha Kerensky (who spent the better part of 50 years fighting in the IS in all manor of engagements) and Phelan Kell, thus the Wolves used their superb intelligence advantage, superbly.

2: they were largely fighting the great and powerful Free Rasalhague Republic, and is massive army of a grand whopping total of 15 mech regiments which were spread out over 70 planets...

If you look at a map of the Inner Sphere you will see that the Wolves are slightly less than half way to Davion space,

and to use a sports analogy: now they are leaving the soft part of their war-sporting schedule....

Shar Wolf, on 12 November 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

And the fact that the above awesome post relies on having sane leadership for Comstar.
Instead they had Myndo Waterly.

True but I don't think it would have been a hard sell to get Myndo Waterly to back a FedCom counter offensive if she thought that Hanse Davions armies were gonna mauled in the meat grinder.

She been actively fighting against Hanse Davion since the 4th Succession War, most of her decisions since then (the creation, and expansion of the Com Guards, and acquiring a first class field general were all aimed at war against Hanse Davion)and been protecting the Draconis Combine (either out of nationalistic citizenship sympathies - or because shes a ISF deep cover agent - that last one is a personal conclusion, which I've never seen confirmed in the lore, its a personal hunch where her character was originally supposed to go) so getting her to back a play that would both help defend the Combine and grind up some if not all Hanse Davions armies would not be a hard sell frankly.

dal10, on 12 November 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

also i thought that fedcom had 162 regiments of battlemechs total?

Nope its the LYRAN Commonwealth that is listed as 162 line battlemech regiments, with the Federated Suns listed at 100 front line battlemech regiments. Remember at this point technically the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth are still separate governments, however after the debacle of the 3039 war where the split command structure was blamed for the Steiner/Davion losses both militaries command and logistic services were merged (creating the Armed Forces of the Federated Commonwealth)however, individual units are still separated by which of the 2 rulers (Archon Steiner or Prince Davion) they ultimately answer to.

Another thing to consider on overall size and strength of the FedComs is that nearly all their line units are organized into regimental combat teams. To understand what this means lets define this as some of the estimates on unit sizes in this thread have been really wrong.

A Federated Commonwealth Regimental Combat Team (RCT) will consist of the following:

1 full regiment of battlemechs (which can vary from 3 to 5 battalions of Mechs, with each battalion consisting of 36 mechs.) So our mech force can vary in size from 108 to 180 battlemechs, the average should be in the 4 battalion range so the average FedCom RCT should have about 144 battlemechs.

3 full regiments of combat vehicles, consisting of a range of tanks, hovercraft, troop transport, ammo carriers, communications trucks ect. (which are organized identically to a mech regiment except instead of mechs they contain fighting vehicles) so our RCT should contain between 324 to 540 vehicles, with a reasonable average of 432 fighting vehicles.

5 regiments of infantry, which is divided into slightly different organizational units consisting of, Fire team - consists of three to five individuals
•Squad - comprised of two fire teams and a squad leader (seven to twelve individuals)
•Platoon - comprised of two or more squads plus support personnel (twenty-five to fifty individuals). In the 3025 time period the standard platoon had one support weapons squad and three "line" squads, I've found nothing that the Clan invasion era RCT organization of infantry would be much different than whats described here.
•Company - comprised of two or more platoons (seventy to over two hundred individuals)
•Battalion - comprised of two to six companies (three hundred to one thousand individuals)

and for a regiment remember that you would have between 3 to 5 battalions, so in a typical RCT you would have between 1500 to 5000 infantry, with a reasonable average of 3500.

2 AeroSpace Fighter wings, each wing would consist of 18 Aerospace fighters for a total of 36.

1 battalion of artillery, organized like a Mech battalion so 36 artillery pieces/vehicles.

On the flip side he Clans organize at the top unit level in Galaxies. A typical clan galaxy will consist of between 3 to 5 clusters. The clusters can be any of Omni/BattleMech, Elemental infantry, or Aerospace fighters, (though not in the Blood of Kerensky or Jade Phoenix books the clans also organize conventional infantry and combat vehicles, the lore tries to cover this gap by claiming that the invading clans don't use these types of units often, but that home world clans do. So it could be argued either way how much infantry, or tanks any of the 6 invading clans would use in their formations, I will list and chart what is allowed to the clans overall, however I will build a typical clan galaxy as the invading Clans would be built like according to the lore as of summer 3052).

At the base of clan organizations is the Point. A point can consist of either a single Mech, 5 Elementals or 2 Aerospace Fighters (home world clan also employ a point of 2 tanks or 25 infantry form a point.)

5 Points form a Star. So a Star can be 5 Mechs, or 25 Elementals, 10 Aerospace Fighters (home world clans would use 10 Tanks in a Star or 50 infantry) *note Stars are almost never formed as combined units (Mechs and Elementals points would not be mixed together at the galaxy organizational level for example)

*NOTE the Clans use a sub organizational formation that can crop up, the Nova (A Mech Star and a Elemental Star formed and trained to fight as a combined unit)

2 Stars form a Binary (and 2 Novas - 4 combined arms Stars - form the SuperNova)

3 Stars form a Trinary (Stackpoles novels occasionally used the term "triple" for this formation, no idea why as his books are the only place I've seen that term used)

*NOTE 3 Novas form the Trinary SuperNova - a total of 6 combine arms Stars. Only place I've really seen the nova formations used were in the Robert Thurston books describing the pre-invasion intra Clan raiding. For the most part in the invasion the Clans use a more strict organization of Point>to Star>to Trinary>to Cluster, in the fiction anyway.

3 Trinaries form a Cluster. and 3 to 5 Clusters form a Clan Galaxy.

So a typical 5 Cluster Clan Galaxy would look like - 3 Clusters of Mechs (225) (EDIT 3 Trinities of mechs would = 45, and 3 clusters then should = 135 (15x3=45, x3 =135 Not 225, opps my bad:P) with 1 Cluster of Elementals (225) and a Cluster of Aerospace fighters. (90) *Note you could respec it in 2 different ways from the lore, 1 way would be to drop a Mech Cluster for another Elemental Cluster, the other would be to Nova that 5th Cluster because the Clans did not employ large formations of aerospace fighters from what I've read, in fact in Battletech air power is an afterthought, its a big stompy robot game afterall...

So a Clan galaxy would be approx. 225 Mechs (EDIT sorry I over counted 3 Clusters of mechs, it should be <b>135</b>, 225 elementals and 90 AeroSpace fighters.

A RCT would be 144 Mechs, 432 fighting vehicles, 3500 infantry, 36 AeroSpace fighters, and 36 artillery pieces/vehicles.

The Federated Commonwealths RCT formations are significant military formations. If your using L1 3025 tech RCTs, 3 should be able to beat a full Clan Galaxy. If the RCT's have the L2 refit upgrades to Star League era specs then 2 should be able to smother any Clan Galaxy they encounter.

The only thing missing is knowing how many Galaxies the 6 invading Clans had operational in the Inner Sphere by the summer of 3052.

Edited by Tyrnea Smurf, 15 November 2013 - 02:32 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Shar Wolf, on 12 November 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

And the fact that the above awesome post relies on having sane leadership for Comstar.
Instead they had Myndo Waterly.

Indeed. It's important to note that, even with the Clans engaging the Com Guards in the battle that would determine what the fate of her entire faction would be, Myndo -still- saw it mainly as an opportunity to be used in an attempt to bring the rest of the Inner Sphere under her/Comstar's rule. This is one of the reasons Focht shot her...he realized she would never stop trying to destablize the Inner Sphere at every turn in order for Comstar to achieve dominance, regardless of what that did to the Inner Sphere.

Had the Inner Sphere launched a combined offensive against the Clans instead of the proxy battle at Tukayyid, Comstar would have waited just long enough for the other powers to gain a decisive lead on the Clans before attacking the other Inner Sphere armies in their back. The offensive would have collapsed, and either the Clans would have dominated the Inner Sphere while the internal fighting sapped all of the Successor States' militaries, or we would have seen the Jihad a little early.

The only way this would not have happened is if Focht would have removed the Primus before the combined alliances actually began to attack the Clans, and that seems unlikely as he didn't understand just how far she was willing to go to advance her vision of Blake's doctrine until he returned from Tukayyid.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 13 November 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

At some point yes, however the Wolves if the invasion were to continue would have to begin splitting through the kurita/steiner border area (which is a border which has been fought over during the duration of the Succession Wars thus its both highly fortified and well defended on both sides. And again consider the Wolves success in the invasion is due to 2 huge factors,

You forget that if the Wolves had no split, they would have been lead by Phelan Kell, An Phelan had the inside track on who was where, and as a Warden would have fought to subdue not to conquer. Wolf won planets were allowed to go back to near day to day normalcy so the wolf flag was no different when borders changed hands with the Combine. Freeing up the Wolves to get to their objective quicker thanks to less resistance.

[Karl Streiger]

Marack Drock, on 13 November 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

I believe all in all the Battle of Tukayyid was a mistake on the Clan's part. Look at it. Wolf had conquered more planets than the Jags, Ghost Bears, and Diamond Shark combined.

What for a great achievement to conquer planets that are guarded by infantry or are even defenseless at all.

OK they had some great victorys on Tamar (beating already damaged 26th Lyran Guards, and a couple of recruits) and Radstadt.

Marack Drock, on 13 November 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Tukayyid devastated the Clans. Also if the Clans had won: No Fed Com civil war, no Jihad, no Dark Ages. But knowing the Jags, they probably would have started a new war with the others.

You think that the IS would have accepted the outcome? I really ask my self if the Clans would have been able to hold Terra - when a combined might of FWL, ConCap, FedCom and DC would have attacked them.

Last not least - do you really think that some parts of ComStar would have accepted the outcome eighter? A good part of them are ancestors of Clan Wolverine...they would have nuked the Clans allready in 3053 when they would have gotten the chance.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Xelchon, on 13 November 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

The reason he didn't plan the assault according to that? Was it to hog the glory for his own clan which he would use to realize his warden ends, or because he believed the other clans would never learn it without having experienced it?

Actually he did. He also shared his knowledge & tactics with the other Clans.

Xelchon, on 13 November 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Ulric was an indecipherable man, he was the most hardcore warden ever, and even if he wanted to impart with the knowledge, the clanners are by nature proud and obstinate and he hadn't the right to intrude in how other clans made war in the first place.

As the ilKhan he DID have a right, however as he explained to Focht, he did not have the desire.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 November 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 13 November 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

What for a great achievement to conquer planets that are guarded by infantry or are even defenseless at all.

OK they had some great victorys on Tamar (beating already damaged 26th Lyran Guards, and a couple of recruits) and Radstadt.


You think that the IS would have accepted the outcome? I really ask my self if the Clans would have been able to hold Terra - when a combined might of FWL, ConCap, FedCom and DC would have attacked them.

Last not least - do you really think that some parts of ComStar would have accepted the outcome eighter? A good part of them are ancestors of Clan Wolverine...they would have nuked the Clans allready in 3053 when they would have gotten the chance.

A minimum of12 Essex (All Nova Cat Ships) say they had a better than average chance. Throw in the Wolf's McKenna and very few troops would have be able to land.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

A minimum of12 Essex (All Nova Cat Ships) say they had a better than average chance. Throw in the Wolf's McKenna and very few troops would have be able to land.

Got it:
Here is my answer:
a couple of Aerospace squadrons - armed with a weapon that start with "A" - and end with "lamo"
Boom no naval forces available

Not to mention that all those Clans have to fight there way to Terra - facing the Drone System - as said its hypothetical - but a victory for the Clans on Tukayyid wouldn't have had any meaning.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 November 2013 - 08:00 AM.