284 replies to this topic

[Hillslam]

Something I don't understand regarding the battle between the clans and the Com Star Guards at the battle of Tukayyid.

We know that the commander of the ComStar forces, Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht, was actually Frederick Steiner, an experienced and hardened battle commander who served thru many actual combat engagements.

We know that the pilots of the ComGuards were using Star League era technology. Effectively nearly negating the Clan Technology advantage.

What I don't understand is where these armies and armies of ComGuard pilots came from. Where did they get their EXPERIENCE from? Wargaming over and over on Terra???

I just don't understand how you take on battle tested gen-engineered warriors with years of experience in REAL combat with a group of untested(?) personnel piloting hidden(?) machinery that had not been used in anger in centuries. Nothing can replace true battlefield experience, no matter how good the training, simulation, or wargaming - and we know that combat expertise atrophies rapidly... so what gives?

Did they secretly draw in warriors from the inner sphere? If so how in the world was this giant secret military force kept a secret???

Someone please school me on what happened in the lore. Who were these ComGuard pilots and where did they get their combat expertise honed enough to take on Clan Mechwarriors and win?

Because I don't get it. Sure, Superior Strategy? Check. Superior Preparation? Check. Superior Numbers? check. But at some point your troops are going to have to pull triggers against their troops.

Edited by Hillslam, 05 November 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[CyclonerM]

This is a good question indeed. An answer might be that the writers had to create this hidden army to stop the Clans..

What i know is that part of the Com Guards should be usually detached guarding the HPG all around the Inner Sphere. Where did they get the experience? Good question indeed.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Combay experience was virtually non existent in the ComGuard for the most part. What leaders had legitimate combat exerience came from their roles previous to Comstar, in subversive positions throughout the IS or something similar. Larger scale experience was largely absent. It is debatable whether its reasonable to expect green forces to win such a war. That being said, the Precentor's strategy avoided much of the issue of experience by not trying to defeat the Clans in tactical set pieces but to use their aggressive quick striking culture to grind them down in a war of logistical attrition. To use their culture of quick and decisive combat to decide victory with minimal waste by essentially trading space for time and wearing them out to exhaust themselves on Comstar forces.

Once logistically worn down, Comstar would force set piece battles to attrit them physically....using the experience gained from their initial running battles in conjunction with clanner frustration to win the majority of the battles.

This hidden Army was written about well before the appearance of the Clans so the group-authorship "plan" to deal with the Clans was in place and in existence to readers well before the initial invasion.

[pbiggz]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Com_Guards

The comguards had been previously deployed against pirates at the very least. They also guarded the inner sphere's HPG stations and trained extensively. Additionally it should be noted that the clans often suffer from the very same issues you have pointed out. Clan warriors are vat-born, bred for battle, trained from birth, and disciplined to a fault, but they don't know the true horrors of war as it is practiced in the Inner Sphere.

You don't learn to ride a bike by reading a book about it.

[Helbrecht]

the Com Guards were Officially formed 30 years prior to Tukkayid( but rumor has it they were building and storing mechs in small numbers for at least 2 centuries) . the mechs, tanks, aero fighters are all star league tech either manufactured on terra or recovered through hidden staches of recovered by comstar. similiar to the cache on helm discovered by gray death legion. the comguards were hidden and not hidden so to speak all the houses new of the com guards but the actual size and tech of the comguards was closly guarded secret.

[HugoStiglitz]

The Com Gaurd soldiers weren't necessarily always part of the Com Gaurd. They could be veterans from the inner sphere handed over to Com Star much in the same way the Frederick Steiner was handed over by the combine. But your statement stands for the Clans too. Where do they get their experience? From wargames and in fighting between the clans? At that point the only advantage clan pilots have is the clan eugenics program.

[LoPanShui]

If I remember correctly ComGuard forces also outnumbered clan forces quite heavily, and in return their losses were significantly higher. Think of Tukayyid more like Stalingrad. The ComGuard put the Clans up against super numbers and firepower, but against less experienced and less skilled troops. They won by bogging the Clans down, ending their Blitzkrieg tactics.

While the Clans like to have quick, brutal fighting that emphasizes personal achievement over coordinated tactics, the ComGuards refused to meet them head on, cut off their supply lines, and when forced into battle relied on subterfuge, superior numbers, heavy use of ambushes and mining in order to keep the Clanners from doing what they did best, which was kill 'Mechs head on.

Clanners are fantastic at fighting and terrible at war.

[Hillslam]

Thanks for all the great answers guys! This really helps me mentally plug what I thought was a huge plot hole in the lore.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

In WW2 the majority of the Allied regiments that landed at D-day were very green - they still won. The battle went their way according to plan, with superior combined arms support (battleships, air support, logistics). Note later when the Germans counter-attacked in the Bulge with battle hardened panzer divisions from the eastern front, the green American units they first encountered collapsed en masse almost immediately. Like the Clans however, poor logistics undermined that final German blitz of the war.

On Tukayyid the Com Guards still suffered many local tactical defeats and horrific losses, but on a global scale they out-grinded the Clans to victory.

[pbiggz]

If you look at each battle the only clan that actually met it's objectives against the comguards was clan wolf, who demonstrated a superior knowledge of inner sphere tactics and were infamous for their disregard of clan formalities. The other clans either barely met their objectives, ended up in stalemates, or were defeated entirely. The Comguards used clan tactics against them. They knew they couldn't win in a one on one battle so they made sure the clans would be drawn into a long grinding indirect slugfest where the comguards would be able to wear the clans down to nothing. If you actually look even deeper into tukayyid itself you will realize that the entire battle was a ploy by ulric kerensky designed to force the other clans to halt the invasion. He knew they would lose. And if they didn't, clan wolf was the closest to taking terra, which would have made them Ilclan, allowing them to order a halt to the invasion in any case.

[Skylarr]

http://www.sarna.net...tle_of_Tukayyid

Quote

Twenty-five Galaxies from seven Clans would face off against twelve entire Armies of the Com Guards (equivalent to 144 regiments), each Clan being assigned two objective cities to take.

Quote

As such, Focht built his battle plans around a classic long-term Battle of Maneuver. He would deny the Clans the short, sharp 'Trial' like battles they were suited to fighting. Instead, he would use terrain and mobility to erode them Cluster by Cluster with a series of rapid and never-ending hit and run attacks combined with massive air and artillery strikes, until he could crush what was left of each Clan on his own terms with overwhelming firepower. Tukayyid offered excellent defensive terrain that the Com Guards prepared to great effect; bridges were rigged with explosives, shielded bunkers constructed from which units sized from Lances to Regiments could appear without warning were scattered in strategic locations and entire cities were razed and recreated as little more than giant traps. Focht's Star League era Command and Control systems allowed he and his staff to fight the entire planet as a single theater seamlessly, and the Com Guards were well briefed in their part. Other key factors included;
• Uniformly, the Com Guards were using Star League era military technology that was a far closer match to that of the Clans then any of the Successor States, a match that became even closer with the use of terrain and mobility.
• The Com Guards would be facing the Clans collectively in a series of waves, meaning units unengaged could be shifted as needed, where as the Clans were determined to fight their battles alone, with only minimal thought to a cohesive, wider strategy.
• The Com Guards would be well prepared for the type of battle they had planned, the Clans - with the exceptions of the Wolves - were not.

Quote

After twenty-one days of fighting the ilKhan of the Clans conceded victory to ComStar. Of the Clans, only the Wolves had successfully gained control of both target cities, with the Ghost Bears earning a marginal victory for holding Spanac but failed to take Luk, and the Jade Falcons achieving a draw based on inflicting far greater losses than they took. But both sides suffered staggering losses in the process. Though victorious, the relatively green Com Guards took more than forty percent fatalities, with even more injured. Despite their much higher level of experience and life-long training, the various Clans suffered almost as bad, with the Wolves taking the least fatalities at 20 percent through to the Diamond Sharks forces who were virtually wiped out.

[Hillslam]

Some of this makes sense but some still doesn't.

I mean we know com guards were stationed at HPGs and tangled with pirates et al. And we know they recruited from IS pilots who fell out of favor.

But the Star League tech piece I just can't cotton up to yet.

Obviously the com guards stationed at the HPGs weren't strutting around in Star League mechs or the houses would have been all over that.

So here comes the battle of Tukkayyid. Precentor Focht says to his pilots... what?

-"OK guys, park your current mechs over there in the storage yard. Now come here"
*gathers them around a set of massive doors to an underground chamber*
-"For this upcoming battle you'll all be piloting.... THESE!"
*doors open, trumpets sound, angels sing, the bling glints off the rows of pristine Star League mechs.*
-"OK. You have 2 days to get familiar with your new machines. GOOD LUCK!"
*walks off to the planning center*

From my days as a pilot I know if I was about to get thrown into a battle, and the Navy said "here we're taking away your old A6 and giving you a brand new FA-18 Hornet" I'd have been grateful for the sweet new jet but no way would I transition over to a whole new machine on the eve of a major battle.

Something still doesn't add up for me.

Edited by Hillslam, 06 November 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Focht set up for a prolonged engagement which the Clans were not used to fighting. In at least one instance (the Jade Falcon campaign) there were fake cities used; again something the Clans would not be accustomed to.

ALL the Com Guards troops deployed to the main battle were available for all the small battles. a unit fighting the Ghost Bears that was still intact after the Ghost Bear campaign came to an end, was deployed against another Clan.

The Clans were not united. Focht admitted to Ulric that had they been, the Clans would have won.

As far as The Clans being superior, warriors are trained from a young age to make war.

When I get home from work, I will provide references from the source material.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 06 November 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

CyclonerM, on 05 November 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

This is a good question indeed. An answer might be that the writers had to create this hidden army to stop the Clans..

What i know is that part of the Com Guards should be usually detached guarding the HPG all around the Inner Sphere. Where did they get the experience? Good question indeed.

The Novels hinted at it a bit. Jamie Wolf and IIRC Morgan Kell caught wind of some ComGuards smelling of Coolant when they attended the Steiner-Davion wedding.

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

The Novels hinted at it a bit. Jamie Wolf and IIRC Morgan Kell caught wind of some ComGuards smelling of Coolant when they attended the Steiner-Davion wedding.

Oh, i see. Honestly i do not remember this particular anectode, what i remember of the Steiner-Davion wedding is Jaime Wolf declaring his feud with Takashi Kurita

[Joseph Mallan]

CyclonerM, on 06 November 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Oh, i see. Honestly i do not remember this particular anectode, what i remember of the Steiner-Davion wedding is Jaime Wolf declaring his feud with Takashi Kurita

...
I could have he wrong book!

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

...
I could have he wrong book!

Nah, just tell me in which novel have you read that passage.

From Sarna:

Spoiler

Quote

On the eve of the wedding of Hanse Davion and Melissa Steiner on Terra on August 27th, 3028, Jaime Wolf confronted Takashi Kurita and publicly scorned him for betraying and ruining a worthy and loyal underling in fluent Japanese, throwing the ritual swords of the late Minobu Tetsuhara at the Coordinator's feet. Wolf even went so far as to declare a personal war between Wolf's Dragoons and the Coordinator over the events.

From "Wolves on the border"

Spoiler

Quote

“From this day, the Dragoons are at war with you and your House, Takashi Kurita! If you think you can take us, go ahead and try. We'll see you in ruins. Watch your border!

Wolves on the border, Epilogue.

My apologies for the OT but this seemed an interesting thing to talk about.

Edited by CyclonerM, 06 November 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Its been 10+ years since I read any BattleTech novels! I don't even own one any more

[Ridersofdoom]

In the future a group of the gamer community will be the Comguards, in this moment part of the training is to play all the Mechwarrior games.

[Vanguard319]

Hillslam, on 06 November 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Some of this makes sense but some still doesn't.

I mean we know com guards were stationed at HPGs and tangled with pirates et al. And we know they recruited from IS pilots who fell out of favor.

But the Star League tech piece I just can't cotton up to yet.

Obviously the com guards stationed at the HPGs weren't strutting around in Star League mechs or the houses would have been all over that.

So here comes the battle of Tukkayyid. Precentor Focht says to his pilots... what?

-"OK guys, park your current mechs over there in the storage yard. Now come here"
*gathers them around a set of massive doors to an underground chamber*
-"For this upcoming battle you'll all be piloting.... THESE!"
*doors open, trumpets sound, angels sing, the bling glints off the rows of pristine Star League mechs.*
-"OK. You have 2 days to get familiar with your new machines. GOOD LUCK!"
*walks off to the planning center*

From my days as a pilot I know if I was about to get thrown into a battle, and the Navy said "here we're taking away your old A6 and giving you a brand new FA-18 Hornet" I'd have been grateful for the sweet new jet but no way would I transition over to a whole new machine on the eve of a major battle.

Something still doesn't add up for me.

I doubt that Focht just presented new Star League tech mechs to his troops and stated they had 24 hours to familiarize themselves with the their systems. There were quite a few mechs that survived the succession wars that were either downgraded versions, (mechs like the non-gauss rifle armed Highlander for example) or for mechs that were believed to be extinct designs, the troops were either trained on simulators, mechs with similar control layouts, or trained on the actual mechs on one of Comstar's hidden worlds.