284 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

pbiggz, on 07 November 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

The Warden Wolves are the true children of Kerensky, not the dezgra crusaders, who will inevitably, in their blind zeal, destroy themselves.

I think not seeing as Vlad has really turned around the Clan from looking like absorption meat to a powerhouse.

Quote

"Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, or our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars."

Yes indeed. Should is a reactionary word & IF the IS had stepped back, I would be a Warden; but they did not.
4 Succession Wars + 1 Kentares Massacre = diving headfirst into the abyss.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 07 November 2013 - 05:52 PM.

[TheSteelRhino]

First of all terra was home of the terran hegemony. The had the best mechs. All the star leafue "royal" stuff.
So safe to say the found mech. And armour, aerospace. They even had warships which was revealed later. They went around the inner sphere destroying or taking lostech finds to keep them out of the inner sphere. Dont forget, many inner sphere mechs that were common to the great houses were very similar to star league and could be refitted with lostech.

Lets also keep in mind the comstar explorer corps.

Remember the gray death legion found hundreds of star league era mechs and could only take a portion from Helm.
So the capital on terra couldnt have a few in storage? Comstar originally was a branch of the star league govt....

[pbiggz]

Actually following the 4th succession war the inner sphere slowly started to build it's tech base back up. That is one of the reasons leo showers wanted to invade when he did. In reality, the clans would have invaded in about 3000, but a careful political dodge by Clan Wolf sent the wolfs dragoons to the inner sphere instead, delaying the crusaders' invasion plans until leo showers rallied enough support to declare operation revival in 3048. Had the clans invaded in 3000, they would have undoubtedly won. 50 years was too long however. The clanners missed their window.

[Sug]

Marack Drock, on 07 November 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Victor put his personal vendettas over his people and a thrown he said he never wanted. I never said he murdered his own people but he did massacre Jag civilians. Victor was like any power craving person. He claims to be great and acts so until he showed off his power. His life goes before his people, I say down with him. Let the Fed Com split apart. No need to be shooting and massacring civilians to get nowhere (mainly Steiner but Davion did have his bad moments). Victor went to an unnecessary level to get his sister hense, Kentaries not being defended, Carvor V having to be retaken by rebels not by any of Davion's help, The Dresari Family being murdered etc. Victor (after his sister was gone) did alright.

This is why:

Through his hole life until that point he was being given orders by his mother and father. He led the Star League after a mass decision to invade. He had no power until his mom was killed and thus did not use it wisely (IMO). His first separate act was to kill Jag Civilians. He was unwise until seeing what power did and that may be why he never wanted it (cause he knew he'd not be good at first).

I'll ask this time.

Did we read the same books?

[pbiggz]

I don't believe victor was responsible, directly or indirectly, for the massacre of anything except for lincoln osis' head...

Perhaps you're thinking of his ***** of a sister, Katherine. She's a bloody piece of work she is...

[Vanguard319]

xhrit, on 06 November 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

Lol, so the ilkhan told all the clans to equip short range weapons and charge at the inner sphere who would be kiting them using long range weapons on fast moving units?

Yeah.

^^

You clearly didn't read the source. Ulric told the other clans to fight according to the clan strengths of harder hitting, longer ranged weaponry, and superior training. He gave fair warning to the other clans of what to expect and made it very clear they should anticipate a long, hard fought campaign on Tukkayid. He also recommended that the other clans secure their logistics, and make sure they are adequate to the task at hand. He then suggests that if Comstar tries LRM spam. to use the clan's better mobility to close quickly and fight at melee range, since the boats would be hindered by their minimum range, a weakness clan LRM launchers do not have. (This strategy is extremely effective in game as well, as it denies missile boats their primary weapons.)

The problem was the Crusader clans were extremely arrogant, did not respect the Com Guard's ability as soldiers, and therefore did not anticipate their enemy would fight in a manner where they didn't have to outfight the clans, only outlast them. They also hated Ulric, for being more successful during the invasion, as well as for being a Warden. They let politics cloud their judgment even further by refusing to coordinate under the ilkhan and fight as a combined force, and chose to fight their part of the campaign alone, whereas the Com Guards considered the entire combat theatre in their battle plans.

In summary, the clans for the most part had a similar mindset to cap haters: They literally could not succeed in a campaign that was more complex than "meet enemy on the field of battle and stomp them with superior firepower in five minutes." As Focht noted, they DID have the skills necessary to win, but they failed to use those strengths out of strategic and political shortsightedness.

[Appogee]

Awesome thread, thanks everyone for posting!

[ShadowbaneX]

The topic's kinda gone away from this, but lets go back to one of those numbers" ComStar had 40% dead and more than that injuried. That means that more than 80+% casualties. That's more than 4000 mechs destroyed. Those numbers are staggering.

As for how they won, well, there are many parallels in our wars. Someone suggested the Eastern Front of WW2 and that's not a bad one, especially with a famous quote from Uncle Joe: "quantity has a quality all it's own." Certainly describes the numberical advantage the IS had, even though the T-34 was a superior tank at the start of the war, although the Germans would later counter with the Panther and the Tiger. Additionally, and I cannot remember the source on it, but I believe that the way that German formations were arranged was similar to the Clans, ie not entirely cohesive and in some ways organized to be more competing against each other at times. I think one good example is the SS and the Wehrmacht were rather destinct.

Another war that I feel also equates well to this battle is the American War of Independance. Like the Clans, the British Red Coats were considered the best troops in around and with the best equipment. The thing is, they rigidly adhered to their tactics and weren't able to cope with the flexible hit and run tactics & skirmishing that the American forces were engaging in. I believe they also made as much use of terrain and anything else they could use to their advantage. When they weren't able to use those tactics or advantages, when it did come to firing lines and face to face combat, it was nasty, horrible and bloody.

[ManaValkyrie]

@ Shadowbane, very good comparisons of existing examples to the fictional lore, if you go back through the clan source material that's exactly the way they were set up, to allow for human nature within the confines of rigid combat and formalities to reduce waste and unwanted destruction as seen in the amaris coup and the later pentagon wars.

Back to the running theme of the topic, you have to look at a lot of the books, back stories and excerpts. The Comstar took contol of earth soon after the collapse of the former star league and the exodus of the SLDF forces, that control and control of the HPG's allowed them to play off the Inner Sphere houses whilst maintaining a dominance of technology, information and control.

They had access to a restricted technology, mechs and storage facilities plus effectively an off limits planet to hide their military strength on. Over the course of the decline of the inner sphere technology, the Comstar through its position could intercept and obtain inner sphere lostech and with its control of the old star league records had a headstart on reclaiming a lot of the old brian's cache's left over from the SLDF.

The formation of the Com Guard itself was an internal change after various Primus's attempts to destabilize Inner Sphere houses, pretty much resulting in a schism within the Comstar order, which is realistically the start point for the later splinter group the WoB. Prior to the 'official' formation of the Com Guard the military strength had existed but had been under the control of the ROM.

Also the Com Guard had access to the SLDF's training simulators, had combined arms units from the ground up and hadn't suffered material attrition the houses had during the succession wars, so there equipment was kept in good shape and fighting order. This also meant that unlike other house units, they had for a long time been training with mixed assets in combat. It's not until the formation of the Federated Commonwealth and the restructuring of it's military might into RCT's of mixed assets by Hanse Davion that a house faction gained proper combined arms units, but even then Battlemech regiments were the pre-eminent.

As someone else pointed out that members of the Com Guard at the time of the Battle of Tukayid in general were not 'fanatical' believers but in general ordinary people from diverse backgrounds who had joined. Some from military backgrounds, they may not have had a lot of field experience other than pirate supression. But they did have excellent intel, training and the best equipment in the Inner Sphere.

As for the Battle itself the Com Guard utilised it's strengths against the Clans, and worked against the Clans using the way the clans had operated in the Inner Sphere against themselves. They used units, to lure the clans in, expend there ordance, and whilst they were doing so, other units chewed up the clan supply lines and reserves. Basically they used the clans own drive against themselves.

The problem for the clans at Tukayid, was that the Inner Sphere forces had learned from the Clans, but most of the Clans hadn't learned from the Inner Sphere.

[Joseph Mallan]

Marack Drock, on 07 November 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Victor put his personal vendettas over his people and a thrown he said he never wanted. I never said he murdered his own people but he did massacre Jag civilians. Victor was like any power craving person. He claims to be great and acts so until he showed off his power. His life goes before his people, I say down with him. Let the Fed Com split apart. No need to be shooting and massacring civilians to get nowhere (mainly Steiner but Davion did have his bad moments). Victor went to an unnecessary level to get his sister hense, Kentaries not being defended, Carvor V having to be retaken by rebels not by any of Davion's help, The Dresari Family being murdered etc. Victor (after his sister was gone) did alright.

This is why:

Through his hole life until that point he was being given orders by his mother and father. He led the Star League after a mass decision to invade. He had no power until his mom was killed and thus did not use it wisely (IMO). His first separate act was to kill Jag Civilians. He was unwise until seeing what power did and that may be why he never wanted it (cause he knew he'd not be good at first).

The slaughter was deemed required(A trial of Annihilation), He Followed a plan that was ratified by the House Lords and Presenter-Martial Focht. Victor had Sir Paul Masters at his ear, keeping him "civilized".

Kentaries Would not have needed defending (Vic an Hohiro were friends as well as allies) if Duke Sandoval hadn't attacked the Combine(A stupid writers plot IYAM) triggering reprisal from local Warlords. The 10th Lyran Guard (Victor's own) came to the aid as they were in the area, On route to link up with Vic.

I just don't see the history you seem to.

[Zerberus]

CyclonerM, on 05 November 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

What i know is that part of the Com Guards should be usually detached guarding the HPG all around the Inner Sphere. Where (...)they get the experience? Good question indeed.

Sometimes the question contains the answer, you just need an eraser

Pirates, rogue merc corps, lone wolves, the Space Mafia, other privateers... all in ample supply in the IS.

Edited by Zerberus, 08 November 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I don't say something is right just because the Government deems that it is. Annihilating civilians in and of itself is wrong no matter how people put it. The nukes dropped in Japan were evil. At the time there was no right only the lesser of 2 evils. When the Jags were defeated in 3060. There was no right there and no justifying it as the enemy was crushed. Strana Mechty was also unnecessary because the rest of the Clans were already under oath from Tukayyid and held honor much higher than the Jags.

Victor murdered just like his sister but the only difference was the Government deemed it okay. Murder is Murder no matter how you look at it.

Actually that was the official stance. Unofficially they were trying all sorts of ways of repudiate or invalidate the Truce of Tukayyid. They trumped up charges to get Ulric kicked out of office as ilKhan, then there was the Red Corsair incident. The IS saw the writing on the wall & decided they needed to give the Clans pause. How would they do that? By making the Clans take them seriously. How would they do that? BY doing what only the Clans had done; annhilate an entire Clan.

No Victor did not. They took special care not to kill civilians & also not to even so much as scratch the genetic repository on Huntress. I can assure you, had it been destroyed, the Truce would have vanished & I could see all the Clans going active in the invasion. I am at work now, when I get home I will provide source references.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 08 November 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I don't say something is right just because the Government deems that it is. Annihilating civilians in and of itself is wrong no matter how people put it. The nukes dropped in Japan were evil. At the time there was no right only the lesser of 2 evils. When the Jags were defeated in 3060. There was no right there and no justifying it as the enemy was crushed. Strana Mechty was also unnecessary because the rest of the Clans were already under oath from Tukayyid and held honor much higher than the Jags.

Victor murdered just like his sister but the only difference was the Government deemed it okay. Murder is Murder no matter how you look at it.

However the logic behind the Civilian deaths was Logical. Warriors in the clans are bred to live hard and die fast. Though I don' disagree with you about my own position, I understand the necessity in the case at hand. And don't get me started on how my opinion would change if someone I loved was killed by said faction. I am not a nice person if you hurt my family!

As to murder being murder... I claim the professional title of, Paid Professional Mass Murderer (retired) My MOS:0311 Infantry Marine. Job requirements, Kill as many individuals before you are killed.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 08 November 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[Burning Chrome]

Helbrecht, on 07 November 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

slightly off on your numbers bro and your facts.

1: comguards dont actually organize like the houses. but in this battle they went against thier normal doctrines to execute the plan.

2: 1 lance is 4 mechs
3 Lances is a company
3 companies is a battalion
3 battalions is a regiment ( with HS company attached usualy ) full strenght mech numbers is 124


3: the comguards had roughly 50 mech regiments on tukkayid

BAHAHAHAAAAA.

He thinks others are "slightly off" on their numbers and facts.

Edited by Burning Chrome, 08 November 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

.

Murder is Murder no matter how you look at it.

Yet you admit that there was no alternative, and that removes the definition of murder (the taking of life without necessity). A man who is faced with starvation does not murder a deer with his bow, nor does a policeman murder a man who is going to shoot him if he doesn't.

In regards to the Smoke Jaguars, it was known they would not surrender, and anything short of shocking the other Clans into accepting the Inner Sphere had the strength to be taken as equals would accomplish the task. In such a circumstance, was there an alternative? Also, if I remember correctly, the civilian members of CSJ were not executed but rendered unable to produce descendants, their genetic repositories destroyed....and -that- was how CSJ was eliminated.

There is murder, which is wrong, and there is killing, which is not. The ends do not justify the means, but the context of a decision is critically important in discovering what an action truely is.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Actually no. As I stated above, their civilians were not harmed and Victor gave specific orders NOT to touch the genetic repository because that would incense all the Clans & the truce would have been repudiated right then & there.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jakob Knight, on 08 November 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Yet you admit that there was no alternative, and that removes the definition of murder (the taking of life without necessity). A man who is faced with starvation does not murder a deer with his bow, nor does a policeman murder a man who is going to shoot him if he doesn't.

In regards to the Smoke Jaguars, it was known they would not surrender, and anything short of shocking the other Clans into accepting the Inner Sphere had the strength to be taken as equals would accomplish the task. In such a circumstance, was there an alternative? Also, if I remember correctly, the civilian members of CSJ were not executed but rendered unable to produce descendants, their genetic repositories destroyed....and -that- was how CSJ was eliminated.

There is murder, which is wrong, and there is killing, which is not. The ends do not justify the means, but the context of a decision is critically important in discovering what an action truely is.

Murder by definition is the crime of unlawfully killing someone. So one country's killing can be another country's Murder. Cause I don't think the country being attacked has given me authorization to kill their soldiers. Even if Mine has.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 08 November 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Jaroth Corbett, on 08 November 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Actually no. As I stated above, their civilians were not harmed and Victor gave specific orders NOT to touch the genetic repository because that would incense all the Clans & the truce would have been repudiated right then & there.

Ahh...been a while since I visited that part of the War. Still, the point is that it wasn't a repeat of Turtle Bay, and in no way could you call it murder even if they had.

In a way, the comments that I was replying to are indicitive of the very reason the Inner Sphere chose to eliminate CSJ...to drive home the difference between the ideal of war as a noble cause and the reality that war is nothing short of the absolute worst thing a nation can endure short of total destruction/devestation. This is why the decision to go to war is (to any sane and reasonable leader) the last option. Once you begin a war, you either win or you subject yourself to the decision of whoever you were fighting as to the fate of your people. And even if you do win, you will suffer damage and loss. And this was the lesson the Inner Sphere was trying to teach the Clans (who had forgotten just how truely terrible total war is).

Joseph Mallan, on 08 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Murder by definition is the crime of unlawfully killing someone. So one country's killing can be another country's Murder. Cause I don't think the country being attacked has given me authorization to kill their soldiers. Even if Mine has.

Well, it's a bit more than just a legal definition as murder is always considered wrong by any code of ethics worth the parchment recording them. Again, the issue of self defense or defense of another's life is only considered murder if a reasonable alternative to taking the attacker's life exists (shooting a person after they have surrendered and disarmed themselves because you don't want to wait for the police, for instance, would be murder even if that person had previously threatened to take someone else's life).

The legal definition is strictly for legal purposes, but the actual concept of murder is not a legal matter.

And, in your own example, the other country has, indeed, given you authority to kill their soldiers if you are a soldier in a country that they have gone to conflict with. This authority stems from the basis for the authority to take life to preserve life and self-defense. If you are attacking a country's military forces because those forces pose a direct and immenent threat to innocent people, then by their own actions, they have declared lethal force against them acceptable. I know this is hard for some people to accept, but this is why soldiers on opposing sides of a war do not fault each other for doing their duties, even if they are opposing each other. They -do- fault soldiers on either side who stray into murder, however. This is also why civilians who take up arms without committing themselves to being soldiers are not given the same considerations, as these do not accept the responsibility that comes with taking up the authority to take life.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 08 November 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Sug]

ShadowbaneX, on 07 November 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

The topic's kinda gone away from this, but lets go back to one of those numbers" ComStar had 40% dead and more than that injured. That means that more than 80+% casualties. That's more than 4000 mechs destroyed. Those numbers are staggering.

Where'd that 80% come from? I'm assuming 40% dead is referring to ALL the Com Guards which would include the infantry/tanks/fighters. It would make sense that most of the casualties would come from the branches other than mechwarriors.

I don't think the number of destroyed mechs was that high. It takes a lot for a mech to become a total loss. Most of the mechs could probably be repaired. I'll have to look it up but I think there might be a conversation about the Com Guards rebuilding in the novel where Comstar lost Terra.

Marack Drock, on 07 November 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Victor put his personal vendettas over his people and a thrown he said he never wanted.

No. In the novels it's very clear that Victor is not "out to get" Katherine for revenge but because he can't leave his people under the thumb of someone that would murder their mother to gain power.

Marack Drock, on 07 November 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

I never said he murdered his own people but he did massacre Jag civilians.

No. No he didn't.

Marack Drock, on 07 November 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Victor was like any power craving person. He claims to be great and acts so until he showed off his power.

Yes and that's why he abdicated his power to his sister.....

Marack Drock, on 07 November 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

His first separate act was to kill Jag Civilians.

No. No. No.

Turtle Bay. Never forget! Everyone is so concerned for the fictional Jag citizens WHO ARE FINE AND ALIVE but they forget that the Jag glassed an entire city from orbit because there were riots.

Jakob Knight, on 08 November 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Also, if I remember correctly, the civilian members of CSJ were not executed but rendered unable to produce descendants, their genetic repositories destroyed....and -that- was how CSJ was eliminated.

Civilian reproduction does not involve the repositories.

[ShadowbaneX]

Sug, on 08 November 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Where'd that 80% come from? I'm assuming 40% dead is referring to ALL the Com Guards which would include the infantry/tanks/fighters. It would make sense that most of the casualties would come from the branches other than mechwarriors.

I don't think the number of destroyed mechs was that high. It takes a lot for a mech to become a total loss. Most of the mechs could probably be repaired. I'll have to look it up but I think there might be a conversation about the Com Guards rebuilding in the novel where Comstar lost Terra.

Back on page 2

Sug, on 06 November 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Here are the losses reported by the sourcebook.

Spoiler

The important part is his:

Quote

The Com Guards ended the conflict with nearly 40 percent dead and more than that number injured.

Emphasis mine. It could be phrased poorly, but usually when things are phrased that way it means "that first number in fatalities and more than that number again in injured."

I'm thinking the typical fashion in which a mech warrior is going to get injured is to having their mech blown up and disabled. If they're killed, well their mech has still been blown up. That means ~40% killed and that number again in injured with the most likely cause in all cases is mech destruction.

Also, iirc, the fighting at the end against Clan Wolf was some of the hardest and the Com Guard got their ***** handed to them, which could account for so many losses right at the end.