284 replies to this topic

[Oshay]

As I posted several pages back, ComStar raided New Earth and several other worlds in the Terran Hegemony at the very beginning of the First Succession War, right after Kerensky buggered off with most of the SLDF. They had enormous amounts of hardware and plenty of people to train it on... ComStar offered hope and a steady job to most of the Periphery for 300 years while the Successor Lords were busy blowing up the Core Worlds.

The Periphery doesn't suck because it's the Periphery. The Periphery is the Periphery because it sucks. It sucks because for 300 years the House Lords didn't spend any money on them, they were essentially left to suck hind *** while Technology regressed and the House Lords spent more and more money and shattered infrastructure to keep their armies running. It sucks because these places were for the most part just colonized before the Star League disintegrated. And you know what happens to Frontier Towns when they're left to rot. They don't do well. So ComStar came along, and offered them aid, propaganda, and the ability to leave town, if you agree to serve the Machine God. I mean, Primus. So a lot of them did. En masse.


While it is true that they officially formed the ComGuard 30 years before Tukayyid, the simple fact of the matter was that they had been training troops for hundreds of years before that. A good example of the use of the ComGuards during the Succession Wars is The Tripitz Affair, in which the Taurian Concordat found a mothballed Battleship that Kerensky left behind, and ComStar found out via ROM and they sent the 1st ComGuards to blow it up so the Concordat couldn't have it.

Edited by Oshay, 24 November 2013 - 12:01 AM.

[pbiggz]

If I am not mistaken, the comguard was actually part of ROM until 3035. Prior to that, Anistasius Focht was named Precentor ROM. The problem was his approach was too "soft" for the ******* insanity that was Myndo Waterly, so she split the Comguard and ROM, named the far more agressive charles seneca precentor rom, and left Focht as precentor martial of the Comguard.

Before this however, comstar's military and its intelligence arm were one and the same.

Edited by pbiggz, 24 November 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[L Y N X]

Two more BT novels that provided a hint at a ComStar Company Commander's perspective are MAIN EVENT and D.R.T. I read them in early 1990's loved them, My kids read them loved them, you can still find serviceable used paperbacks on amazon even though the books are out of print.

[Vanguard319]

Jakob Knight, on 18 November 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

The problem is that you have an incorrect concept of the Clans. They are, indeed 'smart', but they are also respectful of their traditions. Among these is that a battle won without honor is no victory, and wasteful use of resources is among the greatest crimes. These two tenants are the core of the Clan Way.

This is why a Clan commander, who may realize he/she can grind down an Inner Sphere force with successive attacks, will not do so. Attrition warfare is wasteful of material and manpower, and thus to be shunned. At the same time, such tactics call into question the honor of both the commander and his/her Clan by casting aside the results of a Trial simply because it produced an unfavorable results. Now, there were Clans that sometimes went down this path, but they were universally reviled by the other Clans and generally made the target of punitive actions.

This is also why the Clans do -not- view Victory at any cost or over anything else as right in the Clan Way. They are very mindful of how they conduct battles, and any Clan commander who did as you suggest would likely challenged by their own warriors if their own superiors didn't do it first. Honor and conservation of resources is paramount to a Clan force, and any orders to the contrary would be met with severe resistance. Any leader who tried to violate the Clan Way would essencially be committing treason in the eyes of their warriors.

Lastly, a Clan commander cannot simply declare an IS force Bandit Caste unless the actions of the IS force have proven this. Simply declaring you will defend a planet with all you have at your disposal is -not- a violation of the bidding process, but a statement of forces the Clan commander may use when determining their own bid. Again, if a Clan commander declared the IS force Bandit Caste in a clear means to avoid behaving as a Clansman, their own warriors would challenge their command and likely declare -them- to be Bandit Caste for jettisoning the Clan Way for profit.

Bottom line: Any assumption that the Clans believe in 'Victory is the highest honor, and to be won by any means' is completely wrong and against all the Clans stand for. It wouldn't be put into practice (though some unscrupulous Clan commanders might try to do so through deception and guile, they would never do so openly and would likely be found out quickly).

I've got something to support this statement. In the Novel "Operation Audacity" Archer's Avengers challenge the Falcon Guards on Twycross, and are granted Safcon (the right to land unmolested) for a trial of possession. During the landing, Ravill Pryde, the Guard's commander inexplicably breaks the conditions of the trial, and fires on the Avenger's Dropship. (It's suggested his mech had a fault in it's targeting computer that caused it to misfire.) Regardless, the Avengers come in full force, and in the aftermath, Khan Marthe Pryde actually calls for a truce. It's not because she wants to stop her incursion, but because the Jade Falcon's honor has been called into question,

The book itself is a good read, and has a really good example of why you do not fight a defensive campaign against the clans, as well as how to slow down and stop a clan incursion.

[ManaValkyrie]

The biggest issue for the Inner Sphere houses and mercenary groups in the early stages of the Clan Invasion are that Innersphere forces just didn't understand clan mentality, or the bidding processes and their honor systems. These misunderstandings really led to cross confusion in places.

The clans to believe that the majority of the Inner Sphere were comprised of barbarians that needed saving from themselves and the Inner Sphere to think that the clans were a completely Alien society bent on the conquest of mankind.

[pbiggz]

That proved to be the clans' greatest weakness however. As soon as the inner sphere understood the culture and protocol of the clans, especially when they waged war, the successor states new exactly what the clans wouldn't do. That's why Clan Smoke Jaguar was chosen to be annihilated during operation bulldog and it's why task force serpent targeted huntress. The Great Refusal was critical in the same way tukayyid was. By following clan rules and still being victorious the inner sphere forced the clans to legitimize it and as a result, a clan's honour hinged on it's recognizing of those binding decisions.

[ManaValkyrie]

The Battle of Tukayid was pivotal in that respect and being fair, Comstar had for a long period of the invasion been administering HPG stations on planets under Clan control and had a much better understanding, earlier on of the way the clans operated and the ultimately how they thought.

This is the main factor in why the Comguard were able to ultimately defeat the clans, understanding there enemy, meeting their own tactics with a well ochestrated counter too the hard hitting clans. At tukayid, line units were placed in well defended positions, and fell back, strong point to strong point like a mobile war, the attrition in those units was bloody high.

This allowed the other Comguard Armour and Aerospace assets to carryout hit and run attacks on the Clan mechs, they basically forced the Clans out of repair and reload capability and then rolled them back to their dropships if not outright destroyed them.

In essecence they used the Clans own hubris and superiority against them. Only Clan Wolf achieved its full objectives and I believe the Ghost Bears only one of theirs, most clans didn't even get close to there targets at all. Ultimately the biggest failing was on the Clans ability to actually adapt properly to changes in dynamics and inner sphere tactics.

[Uncle Totty]

ManaValkyrie, on 28 November 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

The Battle of Tukayid was pivotal in that respect and being fair, Comstar had for a long period of the invasion been administering HPG stations on planets under Clan control and had a much better understanding, earlier on of the way the clans operated and the ultimately how they thought.

This is the main factor in why the Comguard were able to ultimately defeat the clans, understanding there enemy, meeting their own tactics with a well ochestrated counter too the hard hitting clans. At tukayid, line units were placed in well defended positions, and fell back, strong point to strong point like a mobile war, the attrition in those units was bloody high.

This allowed the other Comguard Armour and Aerospace assets to carryout hit and run attacks on the Clan mechs, they basically forced the Clans out of repair and reload capability and then rolled them back to their dropships if not outright destroyed them.

In essecence they used the Clans own hubris and superiority against them. Only Clan Wolf achieved its full objectives and I believe the Ghost Bears only one of theirs, most clans didn't even get close to there targets at all. Ultimately the biggest failing was on the Clans ability to actually adapt properly to changes in dynamics and inner sphere tactics.

No. The biggest failing of (most of) the Clans was not in thear (lack of) ability to adapt, but (lack of) willingness to abapt.

Edited by Nathan K, 28 November 2013 - 06:39 PM.

[ManaValkyrie]

Not arguing the point there, hence my statement of actually adapt.

[Oshay]

pbiggz, on 24 November 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

If I am not mistaken, the comguard was actually part of ROM until 3035. Prior to that, Anistasius Focht was named Precentor ROM. The problem was his approach was too "soft" for the ******* insanity that was Myndo Waterly, so she split the Comguard and ROM, named the far more agressive charles seneca precentor rom, and left Focht as precentor martial of the Comguard.

Before this however, comstar's military and its intelligence arm were one and the same.

You are not mistaken. The ComGuard was part of ROM. But the point I was getting at was that their armed force didn't spring out of the ground overnight like mushrooms. ComStar had a nucleus of force all along. There was a ComGuard from the very beginnings of The Order.

[dal10]

Least people have finally stopped saying that the com guard was deus ex machina.

[pbiggz]

The comguard's edge on the inner sphere was that they had escaped the ravages of the succession wars. The comguard's edge on the clans was their numbers and willingness to exploit the arrogance of the clans. That is the answer to this thread essentially.

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 01 December 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

The comguard's edge on the inner sphere was that they had escaped the ravages of the succession wars. The comguard's edge on the clans was their numbers and willingness to exploit the arrogance of the clans. That is the answer to this thread essentially.

Plus their Star League era tech, of course.

[pbiggz]

star league era brought them closer to the clans, but not THAT much closer.

[ManaValkyrie]

pbiggz, on 02 December 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

star league era brought them closer to the clans, but not THAT much closer.

No but it brought them a hell of a lot closer than the 99% of all other units the clans had faced in the IS. Not only did they have the SL-era technology, through the ROM and inter house cooperation that started to develop they had access to all the 'advanced IS' tech being developed as well.

[Threat Doc]

Hillslam, on 05 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Something I don't understand regarding the battle between the clans and the Com Star Guards at the battle of Tukayyid.

We know that the commander of the ComStar forces, Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht, was actually Frederick Steiner, an experienced and hardened battle commander who served thru many actual combat engagements.

We know that the pilots of the ComGuards were using Star League era technology. Effectively nearly negating the Clan Technology advantage.

What I don't understand is where these armies and armies of ComGuard pilots came from. Where did they get their EXPERIENCE from? Wargaming over and over on Terra???

This is actually as good a question as...

How could between 80 - 85% of the Star League Defense Forces boost out to worlds more than a year away from the furthest Periphery state, with no factories, a few engineers and scientists, no ability to extract minerals nor refine them once extracted, almost kill one-another in a mass civil war, which prompted the creation of the Clans and the 300 blood names, and then rise less than two-hundred years after that to be a complete civilization with manufacturing and scientific capabilities to far-exceed over a thousand years of development on around 2000 worlds, with a vast army, only one-fourth of which was required to be able to take and hold over 100 worlds within a few months, to be the greatest threat the Inner Sphere has ever seen?

I realize that's a big question, but it has a very simple answer...

It's a science fiction game of giant hokey-robot combat.

The Clans shouldn't exist and, until the Clans came about, neither did the ComGuards, at least not with 85 regiments worth of Star League era technology BattleMechs. As for the training, if you want to get picky, no one messes with ComStar, so spying on them would be fruitless. Technically, with the kind of technology they have, and the intelligence apparatus they've been known to possess for real-world decades, they could test everyone in simulators for years and come about with the nearly same effect as fighting in the field.

Not sure if that answers the question, and I didn't read anything between the OP and here, but that's what it is.

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 02 December 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

star league era brought them closer to the clans, but not THAT much closer.

I challenge you to fight a Clan 'Mech with a 3025 tech-equipped 'Mech and then with an upgraded Star League era tech 'Mech. Tell me if there is any difference

IIRC we are talking about Gauss rifles, Double Heat Sinks, ERPPCs, ERLLs, Arrow IVs..

Kay Wolf, on 02 December 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

This is actually as good a question as...

How could between 80 - 85% of the Star League Defense Forces boost out to worlds more than a year away from the furthest Periphery state, with no factories, a few engineers and scientists, no ability to extract minerals nor refine them once extracted, almost kill one-another in a mass civil war, which prompted the creation of the Clans and the 300 blood names, and then rise less than two-hundred years after that to be a complete civilization with manufacturing and scientific capabilities to far-exceed over a thousand years of development on around 2000 worlds, with a vast army, only one-fourth of which was required to be able to take and hold over 100 worlds within a few months, to be the greatest threat the Inner Sphere has ever seen?

Early in the present day i was reading this:

Edited by CyclonerM, 02 December 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Threat Doc]

CyclonerM, on 02 December 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Early in the present day i was reading this:

I'm afraid I still have to throw up the BS flag on this one. Kerensky would have had hundreds of thousands, not 1.5 million and, even if he'd had the 1.5 million, that's one-half of a percentage point of our own U.S. population, and that would not be enough people to support the sort of industry, typical non-danger-based growth rates in place, for them to come back after that short an amount of time.

Still, science fiction universe, so anything is plausible, hehe.

[pbiggz]

Kay Wolf, on 02 December 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'm afraid I still have to throw up the BS flag on this one. Kerensky would have had hundreds of thousands, not 1.5 million and, even if he'd had the 1.5 million, that's one-half of a percentage point of our own U.S. population, and that would not be enough people to support the sort of industry, typical non-danger-based growth rates in place, for them to come back after that short an amount of time.

Still, science fiction universe, so anything is plausible, hehe.

Hundreds of thousands? I don't think you quite understand how big the SLDF is. There is a reason Alexandr Kerensky was so eager to remove the SLDF from the Inner Sphere once he knew that war was coming. They were by far the single largest and most well armed force in the Inner Sphere and they had the manpower and weaponry necessary to destroy the entire inner sphere.

Think about it, Stefan Amaris had control of the entire Star league and an extremely well armed Rim Worlds Republic army at his disposal, and Alexandr kerensky was able to essentially invade a united star league. That is a feat not even the clans could accomplish.

[Devillin]

dal10, on 15 November 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

i think if more than just one or 2 planets were bargained to never be attacked again the falcons would disallow that practice.

The thing is the Clans, and the Falcons did this several times. Another case to remember is Camelot Command in the Dark Nebula. The Wolves and Falcons fought the Somerset Strikers for it and lost and went away. When Rhonda Snord went to reclaim it, the Falcons fought them for it, and again lost. Only this time they lost omnimechs and warriors as well. The Inner Sphere kept that base for years, and only abandoned it because it was too hard to supply a base that far behind enemy lines.