124 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 November 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

Mind you, the Annihilator is also an excellent canonical boat example - even though technically it's not a boat because it uses a mixed armnament - 4 LBX-10 + 4 MPL, or without Level 2/Clan Tech 4 AC/10 + 4 ML.)

You have forgotten to add - that in the current state of the game - the Annihilator would be an exceptional game breaker. Its a boat - it would not be hindered by any kind of hardpoint restriction and with full IS-2 tech - speed isn't a problem for current game modes and much more:

AC 10s are not effected by Ghost Heat - and even with abnormal heat multipler values 4 - AC 10 would be killing everything and anything within a moment.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 06 November 2013 - 04:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 06 November 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

AC 10s are not effected by Ghost Heat - and even with abnormal heat multipler values 4 - AC 10 would be killing everything and anything within a moment.

Hence the name Annihilator. IIRC There was one in MW3 that was a beast to beat.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Hence the name Annihilator. IIRC There was one in MW3 that was a beast to beat.

YOu mean that beast in the factory?
Yep - short range engagement nor room for manouver....much harder to beat in comparison to those two Dire Wolfes later in the campaing guarding that fortress

[Joseph Mallan]

I had to replay that mission a bunch before I figured out the strategy for winning! I hate that beast till I got the timing right.

[Amsro]

Ghost never did anything, and is still doing nothing.

Everyone is crying about AC weapons being OP, that is because Ghost Heat nerfed energy builds (SRM'***** Detection doesn't help)

PPC and ERPPC are hot enough for this to be a non-issue anymore. At the very least remove it on the test server and let us retry it.

Ghost heat is ridiculous and is still mostly misunderstood. Further proving its overcomplicatednessosity.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghost Heat makes me use two buttons on my AC40 Jager, instead of being able to hammer Mechs with 40 points of pain every pull. I would be happy with a loss of Convergence over a stupid heat punishment. ACs the only double digit ghost heat spike!

[MustrumRidcully]

I think LBX were also broken for a while in MW3.

Ah... Mechwarrior 3. Still my favorite Mechwarrior (but then, I never played MW2). If only it still worked on my machine.

When will we have a PvE campaign mode again?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 November 2013 - 05:11 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Karl Streiger, on 06 November 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

YOu mean that beast in the factory?
Yep - short range engagement nor room for manouver....much harder to beat in comparison to those two Dire Wolfes later in the campaing guarding that fortress

MW3 had the same pinpoint converence issue as MWO. The best way to kill the said Annihilator was to shoot its leg with X medium lasers placed in the same location (no hardpoint limitations). X is the maximum number of medium lasers that would not shut you down (low heat threshold). Since hit points were not doubled in MW3, the Annihilator went down in 2-3 salvos.

I would imagine nobody would want that in MWO:
http://www.youtube.c...9vHb_AsCc#t=837

Edited by Kmieciu, 06 November 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[Amsro]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Ghost Heat makes me use two buttons on my AC40 Jager, instead of being able to hammer Mechs with 40 points of pain every pull. I would be happy with a loss of Convergence over a stupid heat punishment. ACs the only double digit ghost heat spike!

I don't have AC/40 anything and I agree with you, AC/40 mechs were never a problem. AC40 is a self nerfing close range mech, stop waiting for AC/40 to find you.

In fact I would like people to attempt to defend Ghost Heat, prove what it has truly fixed that has made the game better?

Was it the pesky 3 PPC Awesome or that 9 MedLas Hunchback, I don't get what it has made better? PPC + ERPPC's are too hot to boat, I didn't realize Large Laser was OP, and why does Large Pulse Laser seem to cold to people?

But then AC/2's are STILL ghost heat nerfed and that makes sense so I believe ghost heat makes sense.

[Karl Streiger]

Kmieciu, on 06 November 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

MW3 had the same pinpoint converence issue as MWO. The best way to kill the said Annihilator was to shoot its leg with X medium lasers placed in the same location (no hardpoint limitations). X is the maximum number of medium lasers that would not shut you down (low heat threshold). Since hit points were not doubled in MW3, the Annihilator went down in 2-3 salvos.

I would imagine nobody would want that in MWO:
http://www.youtube.c...9vHb_AsCc#t=837

I know that but because MW3 was PVE mostly it doesn't matter - and of course most mechs I killed by a combination of medium pulse lasers - but at least it was PVE no need to use the most competive build - so i toyed arround wiht Sunders armed with missiles, gauss and several multi caliber energy weapons.

I would say pin point was necessary to meet the challenges of all Mechwarrior Games. But what was necessary for PVE was mostly not working in PVP... i played MW2 and MW3 only in small LAN groups - MW4 in bigger groups but hardly in any lobbys.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 06 November 2013 - 05:36 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Convergence turned MWO into a game that resembles a boxing match: take weapons that have similar characteristics, and use them to punch the enemy in his weak spot, while torso twisting / jump jetting to protect your weak spots. That severely limits the number of top performing configs. Every high elo players uses a combination of AC20s, PPCs, Gauss Rifles and some medium lasers in between. This makes the game pretty boring in the long run.

In my humble opinion, Mechwarrior should feel more like a flight or tank simulator where you mount different weapons for different purposes.

Look at War Thunder: you can have machineguns, cannons, rockets and bombs at the same time but the game does not encourage you to fire them all at once. Instead you use the best weapon against your current target. The game has its share of boats (Beaufighter: 4x 20mm cannons FTW) but I found out you can turn the tide of battle using versatile ground attack planes (IL-2)

Edited by Kmieciu, 06 November 2013 - 05:47 AM.

[Commodore Frank]

Oh, if only there was some miraculous system with a lower heat cap and higher dissipation that would stop excessive energy alphas. But my, I have no idea where we could find such a system.

[Joseph Mallan]

Now now Commodore, I have been building Alpha boats for that system for 30 years. That wouldn't be fair to the Boots.

[NextGame]

I never understood the "I think we should all run mixed loadouts" mentality that some players perpetrate. If that's what they want to do, they should, and let people who want to boat: boat. If dieing to a boat, man up and stop crying already.

Instead of applying that logic we got this completely abominable and arbitrary ghost heat nerf to appease the anti boating lobby and got shunted with some very 2 dimensional gameplay as a consequence. Resource spent that really should have gone to other more relevant improvements such as community warfare and ui2.0 in order to actually enrich the game.

I'm not saying there weren't problems prior to ghost heat (the sniper meta was getting really old), however this was a very poor way to resolve it instead of just focusing on sniping types of weapons, that has ultimately very much harmed gameplay rather than improved it and just plays into the hands of the short minded individuals who would be happier rolling their dice on a tabletop.

Edited by NextGame, 06 November 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

NextGame, on 06 November 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

I never understood the "I think we should all run mixed loadouts" mentality that some players perpetrate. If that's what they want to do, they should, and let people who want to boat: boat. If dieing to a boat, man up and stop crying already.

Instead of applying that logic we got this completely abominable and arbitrary ghost heat nerf to appease the anti boating lobby and got shunted with some very 2 dimensional gameplay as a consequence. Resource spent that really should have gone to other more relevant improvements such as community warfare and ui2.0 in order to actually enrich the game.

I'm not saying there weren't problems prior to ghost heat (the sniper meta was getting really old), however this was a very poor way to resolve it instead of just focusing on sniping types of weapons, that has ultimately very much harmed gameplay rather than improved it and just plays into the hands of the short minded individuals who would be happier rolling their dice on a tabletop.

The Logic is mutually exclusive:
Mixed loads; Well rounded able to perform at all ranges.

Boating: A brace of weapons designed to crush an enemy as quickly as possible.

I personally love both types of builds, depending on my feeling that day.

[Vodrin Thales]

Roland, on 05 November 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

Er... the 4 PPC stalker actually was pretty ridiculously effective. I ran it constantly for a long time... generally against very good players.



Not really.
Back then, you'd generally just run 2 PPC's and 2 ERPPC's... so unless you were terrible, you could easily kill any light mech that came near you.

Especially because I ran 4 PPC's with a gauss on my RS. Turns out 55 point alphas will one shot most heavies and down if they show you their back, and you can one shot almost any light that you line up. As much fun as this was I think it was generally bad as it generated a lot of frustration for the guys I insta-killed.

And for those saying it wasn't that effective, my Atlas RS had a 6/1 K/D, and my Highlander 732 with a gauss and 3PPC's had a 9/1 K/D prior to the intro of ghost heat. Both numbers have come down greatly since ghost heat went in and that is not a coincidence.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 06 November 2013 - 07:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vodrin Thales, on 06 November 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Especially because I ran 4 PPC's with a gauss on my RS. Turns out 55 point alphas will one shot most heavies and down if they show you their back, and you can one shot almost any light that you line up. As much fun as this was I think it was generally bad as it generated a lot of frustration for the guys I insta-killed.

it wasn't the 55 point Alpha as much as it was the 55 pin point damage.

On TT a Thunder Hawk has a 65 point Alpha against half as much armor, it is a scary build, but I haven't read a single post that it should be removed or nerfed since its inclusion!

Nobody complains about my 54-67 point Alphas. Because I have mixed weapons and not everything is hitting one pixel.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 November 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

On TT a Thunder Hawk has a 65 point Alpha against half as much armor, it is a scary build, but I haven't read a single post that it should be removed or nerfed since its inclusion!

this....

and all the questions of boating or not boating is simple the question of pin point or no pin point.

And while we talking about short minded people - i don't understand people that are not able to see that simple fact.

[Blacksoul1987]

I do not want to see boats return in the same way they were in mw4. I don't care for ghost heat but I don't want it removed without replacing it. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if you simply were not even allowed to fire more than 1ppc or large autocannon etc. at a time. MW4 had all the boating you could possibly want if all you want to do is click....(wait 5-10 seconds)....click.............click, that game was pretty lame I stuck around for like 6 or more years playing it cause of my fellow clansmen but the gameplay itself wasn't that great.

[RetroActive]

Ghost heat is NOT an anti-boating mechanic. It is an anti-alpha mechanic. You people can still run your 4 PPC Stalkers...just fire 2 PPCs, wait 0.5 seconds and fire two more. I'm not sure why everyone thinks ghost heat is an anti-boating thing. Most people who think that probably just listen to the whiners on the forum and don't understand that staggering fire does not trigger ghost heat.

And to you people and your "convergence is the issue" nonsense: Let's set it up like table top and make everything hit random hit boxes...that sounds fun (sarcasm). I rather like it when weapons shoot where I point. I'm glad PGI has not, and most likely will not, succumb to the "convergence is the issue" nonsense out there.