124 replies to this topic

[Kmieciu]

RetroActive, on 06 November 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

And to you people and your "convergence is the issue" nonsense: Let's set it up like table top and make everything hit random hit boxes...that sounds fun (sarcasm). I rather like it when weapons shoot where I point. I'm glad PGI has not, and most likely will not, succumb to the "convergence is the issue" nonsense out there.

You already have random hit boxes in MWO - just fire at a running Spider :-)

In my opinion MWO would benefit from FIXED convergence. You could make a sniper build that is pinpoint at 800 meters, but when a light mech humps your legs you won't be able to one-shot his leg. What is more, fixed convergence is easier to predict than the current dynamic one, so I would speculate it would improve HSR and the overall hit detection .

Right now convergence works great against slow targets which you don't have to lead, and poorly against fast targets that you have to lead ahead. That's why a Spider is better at tanking damage than an Atlas.

Spoiler

Edited by Kmieciu, 07 November 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Kmieciu, on 07 November 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

In my opinion MWO would benefit from FIXED convergence. You could make a sniper build that is pinpoint at 800 meters, but when a light mech humps your legs you won't be able to one-shot his leg. What is more, fixed convergence is easier to predict than the current dynamic one, so I would speculate it would improve HSR and the overall hit detection .

Right now convergence works great against slow targets which you don't have to lead, and poorly against fast targets that you have to lead ahead. That's why a Spider is better at tanking damage than an Atlas.

Nice pic - where do you get it from?
Reminds me why I liked the Lightning or the Me109 Franz or Gustav 2 the most - during my short IL2 carrier.
No convergence problems - you hit were you aimed at. Great for head hunting.

Instead of a dynamic convergence - what about each weapon got a fixed convergence. For example 270m for all Medium Laser, 450m for LLAS, 270m for AC 20 - not dependend on ther max range. If you take a mono build for example the Hunch with 9 MLAS - and your target is ~ 270m away all hits will hit the same square:
Multiple weapons will make it more challenging to hit the same spot.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Karl Streiger, on 07 November 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

How did you get a Nova...wait you were so lucky to salvage that thing in the last mission of the 1st episode.
When I met that Annihlator i had a Thor C - hardly with enough ammunition for its main weapon.


Because players will always tend to use the easy way. why to bother with only 8 shots for the UAC 20 when i can have infinite shots of small pulse lasers that are more precise and deal much more damage (no offend intended)

yep, in the thor you had to outrange it which is a to and fro jousting competition and yes you had to avoid too much damage to salvage that nova. {no offense taken it was the easiest and a viable way to tackle the problem orions were just as scarry hell LBX's were scarry in that game. this game has no knockdowns so all that fear and stratagy is gone.}

[GalaxyBluestar]

Karl Streiger, on 07 November 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Call me nobody... i used them - although all of there disadvantages:

• delay between firing
  
• high heat
  
• bad hit detection
  
• slow travel speed
  
• splash damage

They had a good sound and the animation of a hit was amazing. And last not least the trill of killing something with PPCs was great. Not so deaf as it was in january or march

During that days i start to ran an Atlas with 2 ER-PPCs and 1 Gauss..with 29 SHS. While it was madness to trigger all the weapons in an Alpha Strike it was possible - and a Hunchback kill in 4 sec proved that this combination was deadly.


Also started a match with 4 disconnects on my side - still i was capable to kill almost single handed 4 enemy mechs - and without HUD Bug it would have been 6.

THe PPC buffs that followed after Open Beta were simple stupid. All the PPC did need was a good hit detection.

Texas Merc, on 07 November 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

ehh atlas ddc

ac20 3 srm6 2 ml

all fired at the same time

48 pt alpha

yeah the srms spread a bit and its not long range but still ghost heat doesn't fix this.

Remember in CB when PPCs were way too hot and hsr wasn't in? Nobody used them.

Obviously there is one theme in all of these builds and its PPCs. why not fix that weapon instead of making ridiculous and hard to find documented band-****?

Remember the patch that reduced heat on ppcs, made them go faster to target and also had an HSR fix?

That is when your Stalker PPC meta came in. The HGN just made it worse.

Instead of rolling any of that back or fixing it properly we get convoluted rules instead.

THANKS PAUL

QFT!

[Night Rider]

Texas Merc, on 07 November 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

Remember in CB when PPCs were way too hot and hsr wasn't in? Nobody used them.

Obviously there is one theme in all of these builds and its PPCs. why not fix that weapon instead of making ridiculous and hard to find documented band-****?

Remember the patch that reduced heat on ppcs, made them go faster to target and also had an HSR fix?

That is when your Stalker PPC meta came in. The HGN just made it worse.

I used ppc stalker in CB when on forum people were saying ppc is too hot, had great fun with it also. That ppc heat reduction didnt make that much of the difference but people starting **** loads of threads like "OMG PPC BUFF NEW META" got a lot of people to try that build imo

Edited by Night Rider, 07 November 2013 - 03:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Texas Merc, on 07 November 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

ehh atlas ddc

ac20 3 srm6 2 ml

all fired at the same time

48 pt alpha

yeah the srms spread a bit and its not long range but still ghost heat doesn't fix this.

Remember in CB when PPCs were way too hot and hsr wasn't in? Nobody used them.

Obviously there is one theme in all of these builds and its PPCs. why not fix that weapon instead of making ridiculous and hard to find documented band-****?

Remember the patch that reduced heat on ppcs, made them go faster to target and also had an HSR fix?

That is when your Stalker PPC meta came in. The HGN just made it worse.

Instead of rolling any of that back or fixing it properly we get convoluted rules instead.

THANKS PAUL

The problem is TO MANY PPCs. 3 or less was absolutely fine v 1/2 our armor or 30 years. Who has it wrong I wonder?

[Kmieciu]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 November 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

The problem is TO MANY PPCs. 3 or less was absolutely fine v 1/2 our armor or 30 years. Who has it wrong I wonder?

Try playing a table top game where instead of rolling dice, you can choose where your shots land at will. 3 PPC Awesome would be an overkill.

Karl Streiger, on 07 November 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Nice pic - where do you get it from?
Reminds me why I liked the Lightning or the Me109 Franz or Gustav 2 the most - during my short IL2 carrier.
No convergence problems - you hit were you aimed at. Great for head hunting.

I just typed "gun convergence" into google pics :-)

In Warthunder, even in Arcade mode (which is vastly more accessible to new players compared to MWO) you can set gun convergence and it makes a huge difference. A Hurricane with 12 machine guns is super effective at the convergence range, but outside of it, you just spray and pray. On the other hand, a Heinkel He-112 A-0 has a single 20 mm cannon that fires through the hollow propeller shaft (therefore it has a perfect convergence).

If this was MWO, the Hurricane would beat the Heinkel at every range (because it throws 3x more lead into to air = 3x more DPS), but thanks to fixed convergence a Heinkel pilot has the ability to snipe from afar, where Hurricane's guns would be spraying bullets all over the enemy.

Edited by Kmieciu, 07 November 2013 - 11:41 PM.

[L Y N X]

I believe this is a troll posting... please do not feed the trolls!!!!

[Karl Streiger]

Kmieciu, on 07 November 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Try playing a table top game where instead of rolling dice, you can choose where your shots land at will. 3 PPC Awesome would be an overkill.

I think J.Mallan knows about that fact: IS Tech Munchkin

Awesome AWS-8Q
 
Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 18.617.700 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2.109 BV for Pilot 5 Gunnery 0 = 3.838
 
Chassis: Unknown Composite Structure
Power Plant: Unknown 320 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43,2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64,8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
	Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Light Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
	3  Heavy PPC + PPC Capacitors
Manufacturer: Unknown
	Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
 
================================================================================
Equipment		   Type						 Rating				   Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Composite Structure		  122 points				4,00
Engine:			 XL Fusion Engine			 320					  11,50
	Walking MP: 4
	Running MP: 6
	Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:		 Double Heat Sink			 15(30)					5,00
	Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LA
Gyro:			   Standard											   4,00
Cockpit:			Standard											   3,00
	Actuators:	  L: SH+UA+LA	R: SH+UA
Armor:			  Light Ferro-Fibrous		  AV - 195				 11,50
	Armor Locations: 1 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL
 
													  Internal	   Armor	  
													  Structure	  Factor	
												Head	 3			9		
										Center Torso	 25		   30		
								 Center Torso (rear)				  8		
										   L/R Torso	 17		   25		
									L/R Torso (rear)				  7		
											 L/R Arm	 13		   18		
											 L/R Leg	 17		   24		
 
================================================================================
Equipment								 Location	Heat	Critical	Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heavy PPC + PPC Capacitor					RT		20		4		10,00
	Heavy PPC + PPC Capacitor				RT		5*		1		 1,00
Heavy PPC + PPC Capacitor					LT		20		4		10,00
	Heavy PPC + PPC Capacitor				LT		5*		1		 1,00
Targeting Computer						   RA		-		 8		 8,00
Heavy PPC + PPC Capacitor					LA		20		4		10,00
	Heavy PPC + PPC Capacitor				LA		5*		1		 1,00
											Free Critical Slots: 5
 
BattleForce Statistics
MV	  S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:	  7	Points: 21
4		  2	   2	   2	   0	  4	 2   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

Fragile and overheat as hell - but able to place 3 shots with 20 damage into a location of choice -> that is exactly what a MWO PPC is -> a 20; 25 point weapon.

If you don't believe me: here try this one:

Awesome IIC
Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X-A
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 19.522.200 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3.019 BV for Pilot 5 Gunnery 0 = 5.495
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 320 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43,2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64,8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
	Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
	3  (CL) ER PPC + PPC Capacitors
Manufacturer: Unknown
	Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment		   Type						 Rating				   Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard					 122 points				8,00
Engine:			 XL Engine					320					  11,50
	Walking MP: 4
	Running MP: 6
	Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:		 (CL) Double Heat Sink		26(52)				   16,00
	Heat Sink Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro:			   XL													 2,00
Cockpit:			Standard											   3,00
	Actuators:	  L: SH+UA+LA	R: SH+UA
Armor:			  Standard Armor			   AV - 232				 14,50
	CASE Locations: LT, RT, LA											 0,00
													  Internal	   Armor	
													  Structure	  Factor	
												Head	 3			9		
										Center Torso	 25		   36	  
								 Center Torso (rear)				  9		
										   L/R Torso	 17		   25	  
									L/R Torso (rear)				  9		
											 L/R Arm	 13		   24	  
											 L/R Leg	 17		   31	  
================================================================================
Equipment								 Location	Heat	Critical	Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CL) ER PPC + PPC Capacitor				  RT		20		2		 6,00
	(CL) ER PPC + PPC Capacitor			  RT		5*		1		 1,00
(CL) ER PPC + PPC Capacitor				  LT		20		2		 6,00
	(CL) ER PPC + PPC Capacitor			  LT		5*		1		 1,00
(CL) Targeting Computer					  RA		-		 4		 4,00
(CL) ER PPC + PPC Capacitor				  LA		20		2		 6,00
	(CL) ER PPC + PPC Capacitor			  LA		5*		1		 1,00
											Free Critical Slots: 3
BattleForce Statistics
MV	  S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:	  8	Points: 30
4		  3	   3	   3	   0	  4	 1   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

Kmieciu, on 07 November 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

If this was MWO, the Hurricane would beat the Heinkel at every range (because it throws 3x more lead into to air = 3x more DPS), but thanks to fixed convergence a Heinkel pilot has the ability to snipe from afar, where Hurricane's guns would be spraying bullets all over the enemy.

While I really want to have similar - I'm little affraid that it will "buff" mono builds much more:
for example firing 4 MLAS and 2 LLAS converge actually at any range - not optimal - but with fixed convergence at 270m you have to fire your MLAS - after that fire each LLAS at its own. Although the placement of those weapons could become relevant -> the dispersion is lower when the LLAS are mount in the Torso.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 07 November 2013 - 11:57 PM.

[Razimir]

Or... they could give all mechs the same type of armor than spiders has! That would solve pinpoint accuracy and convergence problems people are seem to be unearthly upset about. Personally I would find it pretty boring if you couldn't fire weapons together. What is the point of torso twisting then, If you constantly need to fire different weapons? Imo people are making this a bigger problem, that it actually is.

-Raz

[Karl Streiger]

Razimir, on 08 November 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

Personally I would find it pretty boring if you couldn't fire weapons together.

wait you will find a more complex and more challenging approach boring?
Just that i understand your statement.
Point an klich with 1 or 2 weapon groups that don't have to directed differently - is fun?

[-Natural Selection-]

Karl Streiger, on 07 November 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

snip

The question for all this convergence talk. So you say med lasers would converge at 270 for example. With left and right side mounted weapons, your suggestion would mean that they would not be forward mounted. However fixed at an angle that would allow them all to converge at 270m. With that in mind how do you propose for them to be aimed at any distance other than that? And this really would mean that "every" weapon in theory would have to have its own reticle to be aimed. Am I missing something?

[Wales Grey]

I've never understood why people call building a mech for a certain role "boating". What it really ought be called is optimization.

In any game that features non-trivial customization, there will always be "optimal" ways to play. Whining about how "cheap" it is for someone to stack medium lasers or PPCs is like complaining about how "cheap" it is for a mech with LRMs to play keep-away and not let you in its minimum range.

Unless PGI totally removes customization, optimization of a chassis for a role ought be expected. End of story.

[Karl Streiger]

Dozier, on 08 November 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

The question for all this convergence talk. So you say med lasers would converge at 270 for example. With left and right side mounted weapons, your suggestion would mean that they would not be forward mounted. However fixed at an angle that would allow them all to converge at 270m. With that in mind how do you propose for them to be aimed at any distance other than that? And this really would mean that "every" weapon in theory would have to have its own reticle to be aimed. Am I missing something?

Have you played a simulator like IL 2 or War Thunder( last i didn't)
Take a plane with different weapons. Hurrican or Me109 or Spitfire

For example those guns are fixed for 300m convergence...and you get nearer to your enemy. Most likely because those 7.7 of the hurrican are not that good for long range.
So lets suggest i want to hit the engine of a He 111. so i aim for the spot between tail and engine.

the left 6 machine guns will hit the engine - the other 6 will wander along the tail - and maybe take out pilot or gunners.

hm i make a quick sketch:

first example - you aim for the head and your MLAS converge at 270m - spray damage around the target
second examle - aim once - left rim of the cockpit window - fire torso lasers
other example - differtent aiming for arm weapons

So you have to know you weapons - to know how they react and where to aim at a target that is not in optimal convergence range but: you still can fire your weapons as you want to do: aim for the center and trigger all weapons. Damage is applied arround the complete torso not just a single spot.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 08 November 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

Karl Streiger, on 08 November 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

Have you played a simulator like IL 2 or War Thunder( last i didn't)
Take a plane with different weapons. Hurrican or Me109 or Spitfire

Yes we play WT and I understand where you are going. But would seem as though in our situation direct forward firing with 3 reticle groups (left, CT, right) would be easier. However only really makes sense for fixed arm mechs. Adjusted range convergence is something that has been worked out for a while even today. Even if the weapons were mounted in fixed locations, having them adjust would not be difficult. Heck, even some auto headlights work in the same manner today.

[-Natural Selection-]

OK as far as my boating reply. So I see some complain about boating say lrms, streaks or whatever. So how would you suggest building a Cat A-1? With only 6 mis slots, you really have not option but to boat. Either 6 lrms, 6 streaks, 4&2, 3&3 you have to do it. Unless someone knows of something else to shove in there.

Edited by Dozier, 08 November 2013 - 01:22 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Dozier, on 08 November 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

OK as far as my boating reply. So I see some complain about boating say lrms, streaks or whatever. So how would you suggest building a Cat A-1? With only 6 mis slots, you really have not option but to boat. Either 6 lrms, 6 streaks, 4&2, 3&3 you have to do it. Unless someone knows of something else to shove in there.

Well, you could install 2 LRMs and 2 SRMs and 2 SSRMs, or something like that.

I wouldn't necessarily consider this a sensible build, of course. That is probably somethig some people don't want to accept - boated configurations are often good, because it's usually better to be a specialist than a jack of all trades, master of none. (But not all specialized builds require boats - you could have an ER LL + ER PPC build and be clearly specialized for long range combat, for example. In the table top, this wouldn't really be any worse than a boated loadout, in MW:O, thanks to convergence, it would play worse than a boat, however.)
And people also like to ignore that there are stock boats.

[-Natural Selection-]

Is also funny I never see anyone complain about my Jenner F boating 6 spl lol

[Karl Streiger]

Dozier, on 08 November 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Is also funny I never see anyone complain about my Jenner F boating 6 spl lol

Than you must have missed a dozen posts that i have writen:
Its the JR7-F is the reason why 6 MLAS doesn't case ghost heat not the Hunchback
Its the JR7-F that was the reason why DHS should only bring 1.4 outside the engine.
But its the JR7-F that has no need for additional heatsinks but 1.4
Its the JR7-F why kollision was removed
Its the JR7-F why Jump Jets got buffed
Its the JR7-F that is/was the love of Garth that brought those problems
Its the JR7-F i'm joking about

[-Natural Selection-]

in game I meant =)