124 replies to this topic

[NextGame]

Karl Streiger, on 08 November 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

Have you played a simulator like IL 2 or War Thunder( last i didn't)
Take a plane with different weapons. Hurrican or Me109 or Spitfire

For example those guns are fixed for 300m convergence...and you get nearer to your enemy. Most likely because those 7.7 of the hurrican are not that good for long range.
So lets suggest i want to hit the engine of a He 111. so i aim for the spot between tail and engine.

the left 6 machine guns will hit the engine - the other 6 will wander along the tail - and maybe take out pilot or gunners.

hm i make a quick sketch:

first example - you aim for the head and your MLAS converge at 270m - spray damage around the target
second examle - aim once - left rim of the cockpit window - fire torso lasers
other example - differtent aiming for arm weapons

So you have to know you weapons - to know how they react and where to aim at a target that is not in optimal convergence range but: you still can fire your weapons as you want to do: aim for the center and trigger all weapons. Damage is applied arround the complete torso not just a single spot.

It would be nice if something like this was in place and we could tune our weapons for convergence distance in the mechlab, with the max distance for each weapon being their current weapon ranges, could also make dynamic convergence a ridiculously expensive module so that the community have something new to complain about now that siesmic is no longer useful.

Edited by NextGame, 08 November 2013 - 04:21 AM.

[Zerberus]

The OP is based on a misunderstanding.

A "boat" is a mech that contains large numbers of one weapon, such as LRMs, SRMs, Lasers, PPCs.

Nothing at all has been done to curb boating.

What HAS been implemented in teh form of Ghost heat is a way top discourage firing off all of those systems at exactly the same time of very shortly after. Something that never should have been possible in the first place, and with TT heat scale would have resulted in 99% of poptarts, 6ppc stalkers, and other vermin blowing tehmselves sky high after 2 or 3 strikes.

Whether the "I use an apple mouse" playstyled Church of Skill^TM wants to believe it or not, ghost heat did exactly what it was supposed to do, it made ridiculously high alpha strikes unfeasible. Regardless of weapons system. A few weapons got a bit overhit (ll imn particular) but specifically the oh so beloved PPC was not one of them.

You can still boat your 6 ppcs, I ran 7 erppcs on my BM... you just can`t shoot them all at teh same time, shut down for half an hour, and then rinse and repeat. And thank ******* god for that.

Now, is ghost heat the be all end all solution ? No, I personally think it`s unintuitive and too rigid the way it is .... But I would not remove it before a suitable replacement is found, because if you do we go right back to jump up+shut down Warrior Online again, even with the restored PPC heat.

Edited by Zerberus, 08 November 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zerberus, on 08 November 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

The OP is based on a misunderstanding.

A "boat" is a mech that contains large numbers of one weapon, such as LRMs, SRMs, Lasers, PPCs.

Nothing at all has been done to curb boating.

What HAS been implemented in teh form of Ghost heat is a way top discourage firing off all of those systems at exactly the same time of very shortly after. Something that never should have been possible in the first place, and with TT heat scale would have resulted in 99% of poptarts, 6ppc stalkers, and other vermin blowing tehmselves sky high after 2 or 3 strikes.

Whether the "I use an apple mouse" playstyled Church of Skill^TM wants to believe it or not, ghost heat did exactly what it was supposed to do, it made ridiculously high alpha strikes unfeasible. Regardless of weapons system. A few weapons got a bit overhit (ll imn particular) but specifically the oh so beloved PPC was not one of them.

You can still boat your 6 ppcs, I ran 7 erppcs on my BM... you just can`t shoot them all at teh same time, shut down for half an hour, and then rinse and repeat. And thank ******* god for that.

Now, is ghost heat the be all end all solution ? No, I personally think it`s unintuitive and too rigid the way it is .... But I would not remove it before a suitable replacement is found, because if you do we go right back to jump up+shut down Warrior Online again, even with the restored PPC heat.

I don't count what we have in the LRM department as boating right now. 8 LRM5s has the same over all damage potential as 2 LRM20. it just does it faster thanks to a (Logically) quicker reload time.

[Satan n stuff]

Steel Claws, on 05 November 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

If convergence were to go away light mechs would much harder to kill than they are right now with PPCs and ballistic weapons - do you really want to go there? All you people who keep asking for this have NOT thought this through very well. Further the dull roar you hear about hit registration would become a full blown Jet engine loud scream if shots did not converge at all.

Is this a stealth claim that lights are OP? Because I'm pretty sure most good builds can oneshot any light, and I know a lot of players are good enough to do it.
I never said that convergence should go away entirely, please don't make stuff up.

Firstly, we need time to convergence back to make it harder to poptart effectively and to make it a lot harder to put 30+ damage in one location, which happens quite often regardless of whether you want to admit it. In fact I do it all the time, usually several times until the targeted mech falls over.
There is the possibility of adding a ( self stacking ) recoil effect to ballistics and a heat induced accuracy loss that affects convergence time and/or arm/torso rotation acceleration/deceleration. This won't prevent an accurate first alpha but with convergence time ruining the element of surprise and recoil and heat making a second attack much less likely to hit the intended location this will probably put an end to peekaboo tactics and the high alpha meta.
Time to convergence won't fix poptarting entirely unless the time is set rather long, which doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but another possible way to nerf poptarting is to limit torso twist acceleration/deceleration while a mech is in the air, making it harder to aim accurately and making aiming while airborne take longer.
With all that implemented ghost heat would become ( even more ) obsolete.

[Joseph Mallan]

***** n stuff, on 08 November 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Is this a stealth claim that lights are OP? Because I'm pretty sure most good builds can oneshot any light, and I know a lot of players are good enough to do it.
I never said that convergence should go away entirely, please don't make stuff up.

It takes an AC20 to strip the armor and damage structure on a Locust. Same shot on TT would leave 2 points of Torso armor unless the player has more than 2 points of rear torso armor. It's not so easy to one shot a light here.

[Khobai]

Quote

It takes an AC20 to strip the armor and damage structure on a Locust. Same shot on TT would leave 2 points of Torso armor unless the player has more than 2 points of rear torso armor. It's not so easy to one shot a light here.

But mechs dont just have one AC/20. A popular build is an AC/20 and two PPCs. And they all converge on the same location. Its actually quite common to one shot a locust at very short range since the AC/20 and PPCs hit at roughly the same time.

Since PGI has made it abundantly clear they arn't changing convergence, they really need to explore other options for reducing pinpoint damage. Even if its making PPCs do splash damage and making autocannons fire faster but do less damage per shot. Increasing center/side torso internal structure is also another possibility I don't feel has been fully explored.

Edited by Khobai, 08 November 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 08 November 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

But mechs dont just have one AC/20. A popular build is an AC/20 and two PPCs. And they all converge on the same location. Its actually quite possible to one shot a locust at very short range since the AC/20 and PPCs hit at roughly the same time. And since the Locust has machine guns it basically has to engage at very short range...

With twice the damage. on the lightest Mech in the game!!!

[Khobai]

Quote

With twice the damage. on the lightest Mech in the game!!!

Right but in battletech firing an AC/20 and two PPCs at a locust would probably result in two out of three of those weapons completely missing and only one of them hitting. And the one weapon that hit would roll a completely random hit location.

Where in MWO, all three will hit, and theyll all hit the same location.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 08 November 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Right but in battletech firing an AC/20 and two PPCs at a locust would probably result in two out of three of those weapons completely missing and only one of them hitting. And the one weapon that hit would roll a completely random hit location.

Where in MWO, all three will hit, and theyll all hit the same location.

Doing as much damage as our 2PPC/AC20 combo respectively. still removing a limb completely.

[CeeKay Boques]

Khobai, on 08 November 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Right but in battletech firing an AC/20 and two PPCs at a locust would probably result in two out of three of those weapons completely missing and only one of them hitting. And the one weapon that hit would roll a completely random hit location.

Where in MWO, all three will hit, and theyll all hit the same location.

We are all -3/-3 Pilots taking aimed shots. We don't need to simulate some 4/5 guy!

[Sporklift]

When piloting my locust in Tourmaline I got legged and killed at range. Not unusual, someone got a lucky shot in. Then the dude who vaporized my side torso pipes up on global chat. Something like "Yup 7 PPCs are awesome." Pure overkill right? My response was "Enjoy your heat." "Yeah I'll get to start up again in two minutes, lol."
Heh...nope. Two minutes later his CT melted out. Basically he sacrificed an 85 ton machine to kill a 20 ton gimpbot.
I don't care what system we get, I just want it to punish stupid.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sporklift, on 08 November 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

When piloting my locust in Tourmaline I got legged and killed at range. Not unusual, someone got a lucky shot in. Then the dude who vaporized my side torso pipes up on global chat. Something like "Yup 7 PPCs are awesome." Pure overkill right? My response was "Enjoy your heat." "Yeah I'll get to start up again in two minutes, lol."
Heh...nope. Two minutes later his CT melted out. Basically he sacrificed an 85 ton machine to kill a 20 ton gimpbot.
I don't care what system we get, I just want it to punish stupid.

I think I saw the video of that!

[MustrumRidcully]

Technoviking, on 08 November 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

We are all -3/-3 Pilots taking aimed shots. We don't need to simulate some 4/5 guy!

I believe people figured out to emulate this with Clan (or Elite IS) pilots equipping a target computer and pulse lasers. And yeah, it broke TT. But then, what about the power creep didn't?

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 November 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

I believe people figured out to emulate this with Clan (or Elite IS) pilots equipping a target computer and pulse lasers. And yeah, it broke TT. But then, what about the power creep didn't?

You know how many official scenarios used those combs??? What the players did on their own table was their fault. Not FASA/FanPro or CatLab!

[Tombstoner]

Steel Claws, on 05 November 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Sigh.... The only weapons system that really has pin point convergence in reality is lasers.

Sigh even in reality lasers suffer from divergence, admittedly over extremely long distances.
sadly people like to point out that its a game about giant robots..... sigh.... http://www.businessi...gly-cool-2013-7

[Joseph Mallan]

Tombstoner, on 08 November 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Sigh even in reality lasers suffer from divergence, admittedly over extremely long distances.
sadly people like to point out that its a game about giant robots..... sigh.... http://www.businessi...gly-cool-2013-7

I would assume that it is less than say a RAC would have?

[Satan n stuff]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 November 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

It takes an AC20 to strip the armor and damage structure on a Locust. Same shot on TT would leave 2 points of Torso armor unless the player has more than 2 points of rear torso armor. It's not so easy to one shot a light here.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to shoot them in the back. Also 40 damage on a sidetorso is usually fatal on a spider, and guaranteed to be fatal on anything lighter.

[Joseph Mallan]

***** n stuff, on 08 November 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

You'd be surprised how easy it is to shoot them in the back. Also 40 damage on a sidetorso is usually fatal on a spider, and guaranteed to be fatal on anything lighter.

It should be! TT Spider had 14 points of total side torso armor! A Single AC20 was fatal!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 08 November 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 November 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

It should be! TT Spider had 14 points of total side torso armor! A Single AC20 was fatal!

That's not the point, the point is that you can in fact one shot any light if you know where to hit them. I've seen it happen many times, and I've done it a lot myself.

[Tombstoner]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 November 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

I would assume that it is less than say a RAC would have?

yea much less, what happens is the energy density drops so it looses its damage potential. lasers should flat out have much longer ranges with pin point accuracy then any auto cannon system. ballistic weapons should suffer from some form of COF but lasers should not and only have damage drop off.

If only the devs would stop and try to add some realism to the weapons systems and stop copying the old games and make this something special "good special" not short bus special.