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A Discussion On Tonnage


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#1 ShadowedR

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 05:50 AM

To the reader: This is a discussion on certain things I noted while messing around with MWO stats. If you don't like it, discuss it. But for the love of everything Mechwarrior, don't flame or troll...

Our group entered our usual discussion regarding OP this, balance that when we started discussing the Pros and Cons of an XL engine on the new Catapult Hero: Cheshire (I know it is called ‘Jester’, but COME ON)

Anyway, something dawned on me: What is the benefit of increasing the tonnage of mechs? Obviously, more armor, more guns, higher level of badassery. What is the cost? You are a bigger target at a slower speed.
But ok, seriously, from a stats point of view, how did PGI balance the benefits / drawbacks in MWO?

Now let me get this out of my system – Battletech Table Top is by no means a balanced system. We’re not even going to reference it here, so don’t comment on it, ok?
OK.

So, let us start off by looking at the specs for all of the chassis. I’ll be evaluating only one variant and exclude all of the hero mechs. These models were chosen at random (sort-off)

Posted Image





The first thing I did was to get the listed information on the chassis weight and Max Armour Values.
Note that, all of the mechs that share a weight class has the exact same amount of max armor.

This forms part of our first assumption: Inter weight class stats are kept the same. In other words, mechs that weigh the same, share a lot of common stats.

Looking at the data, we see that there is a growth of max armor values as you traverse through the weight classes. Here are a few graphs:

Posted Image



MAX ARMOR
Ok, wow, nice linear growth of max armor values. OK, there are a few kinks, but it seems ok ?
Wrong. Let us break it down further

ARMOR/TON
Ok, for each ton that your mech weighs, how much armor can we throw on there?
Immediately we see the graph is all over the place. Lights can fit the most armor/ton which is fine in my mind. It is supposed to be like that, the cost of throwing on more steel plates increases as you add more and more. The cost being tonnage. You need a bigger mech and at some point to add just 1 armor plate, you have to design a mech that is 5 tons heavier than the previous mech.

But our graph reflects a few irregularities. Look at the 20/25 ton interval:
a locust has a worse armor/ton ratio than the commando.
Look again at the 35/40 ton intervals: A Cicada has a ration than a Jenner or Raven.
Notice the 60 – 75 intervals: Look how sharply the ratio declines over just 3 weight classes.
And then finally, the small but steady growth over the assault mech chassis.
According to me, this ratio should be a constant, steady decline.

ARMOUR GAIN
Armour gain is the amount of armor gained because you built a mech 5tons heavier.
Again, this chart shows us something is wrong with the amount of armor given to each weight class:
60 – 70 ton mechs are given less armor than other mechs. The 35 ton bracket also gets less armor.

INTERLUDE
By now you've realized that not all of the weight classes are treated as equal. And that is fair.
But then, why is it that a Raven and a Jenner gets exactly the same amount of armor points to spend. Same holds true for the mechs weighing in at 65 tons: Catapult, Jagermech and Thunderbolt. They are, after all, completely different in design, shape, size etc. The only common ground they share is their weight on a scale. For the purpose of this post, I’d like to keep my assumption that all mechs, across weight classes, should be kept equal.

.......







Ok, now we go one further: What is the amount of available fitting space on a mech? For the sake of sanity, these numbers are AFTER we've fitting MAX armor, but no Engine or any other equipment. I repeat: NO fittings except max armor values.

Posted Image


OK, overall it seems like each weight index is getting a nice, linear increase in the free weight (space) we get to load stuff in. Looking at the amount of free tonnage we gain as we move along the weight classes, it becomes apparent that Cataphracts get the most boost to fitting space. I mean, look at it.






And then finally, how much free space do we get per ton in weight?
Wait, I know this graph. It’s the inverse of the Armour/Ton graph. Yep. PGI decided that we are going to make some weight classes fit less armor, but in return we’ll give them additional weight free to fit stuff in. It is obvious that by not allowing a weight class to exceed a certain armor threshold, there will be more space available when you fit to MAX armor.

This doesn't really tell us anything new, except that there is a discrepancy in the amount of armor one would expect to fit on a mech. There is no benefit is applying a maximum that is under par with what one would expect. A Raven doesn’t benefit from having a lower armor cap imposed, it just removes the ability to fit a tankier build.

Remember, mechs of other weight classes do not HAVE to fit max armor. They are allowed to pick if they want more armor and less equipment.

.....







Let us have a look at the speed of various mechs.
I fitted each mech with a Standard 200 Engine, except the locust. So ignore it.

Posted Image



Again you will note that mechs that share a weight class have the same speed when outfitted with the same engine. No difference in how fast a Thunderbolt can move VS a Catapult.

Looking at the chart, we see that light mechs get the most benefit out of engines.
Medium mechs are the worse off in terms of how engine size influences their movement speed.

One would expect to see a linear graph, such as the red one. Keep in mind, top speed. We are ignoring acceleration. Engines have less of an impact on medium / heavy mechs than the impact on Assault / Lights.

.....





CONCLUSION:
Make your own.

My conclusion is that it is going to be a whole lot longer before MWO can be considered a balanced game.

I think PGI should re-balance mechs so that even though two mechs weigh the same, the perform differently.

The current system leads towards specialization of certain mechs in certain weight classes.

I had fun messing around in excel and writing this post. And a little part hopes that this post will bring awareness to certain unbalanced aspects of MWO.

.....





TL;DR
Game needs balancing and stuff.
Discuss the topic of inter weight balancing issues with me.

#2 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:08 AM

Armor is based on the number of Internal structure points a Mech has. and total armor is doubled from TT. So a Locust with 4 points of structure would be allowed 8 points of armor (16 in MW:O) the exception was the head which was allowed 3 points per structure point, assuming that was so a PPC/AC10 could not remove your head in a single shot. So it is not a factor of the Mechs total weight.

Other than that you have charted what a lot of TT players have known for a long time. There are Weight sweet spots along the progression. Been that way forever. We work with it.

#3 ShadowedR

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:20 AM

You are referencing a conversion from the table top.
Converting from TT -> PC works out as much as converting a book, word for word, to a movie.
Not entirely.

But the hardcore fans love it.

Laying out the weights and ratios is, yes, something that experienced players know.
I've had complaints about certain chassis not performing as they *should* compared to other chassis of a different weight, since day 1.

Do we really want a game to have a set of OP chassis and the rest are all sub par?

And whatever happened to uniqueness? Quirks of a certain chassis?
Advantages on running a TBT instead of CN9 ?
It can't be in just the hard points we are given...

#4 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:45 AM

There are limited factors that can reasonably be changed between mechs of the same weight and still have a cohesive game system based on building the things. There's already arm, twist and turn differences. They could implement stricter hardpoints, but that just narrows options across the board. And there's Quirks, which they're taking their sweet time with, but which are theoretically on the way. What else? Magical hand-wavey bonuses because the stock mech had something? Leave that in the class-based games, please.

And with everything PGI has done wrong, you can't blame the non-linear progression of certain stats on them, since it's taken straight from TT. And you can say what you want about TT, but it's one of the oldest TTGs there is, and still immensely popular after all these years without ever having a major rules revision. They must have done something right.

#5 Karl Streiger

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:49 AM

View PostShadowedR, on 06 November 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

And whatever happened to uniqueness? Quirks of a certain chassis?
Advantages on running a TBT instead of CN9 ?
It can't be in just the hard points we are given...

Something even CBT has registred allready thats why we have now perks n quirks for every mech and vehicle in every new printed TRO. Its optional - but that makes a difference between a CN9-A and TBT-7K with other wise exact load out.

I admit - that I don't think that the decission of using exact 2x TT values for internals and armor as well as the number of crits was a wise design decission for MWO.

But somehow somewhere you have to start - although TT and MWO are comparable about those stats these comparison was never made and so MWO is 90% MechLab and 10% battle for Solo players and 50% mech lab 40% teamwork and 10% battle for players that drop in groups.

Its kind of ironic - that stock loadouts were available - and all stats and values considering weight, armor and crits are choosen that they are nearly exact copys of the TT BattleMechs. So any change of those values could cause interference that will it make not possible to create canon builds - that on the other hand are inferior and hardly useable in game.

#6 DaZur

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:59 AM

@OP...

I love this kind of stuff. Good on ya...

#7 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:00 AM

View PostShadowedR, on 06 November 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

You are referencing a conversion from the table top.
Converting from TT -> PC works out as much as converting a book, word for word, to a movie.
Not entirely.

But the hardcore fans love it.

Laying out the weights and ratios is, yes, something that experienced players know.
I've had complaints about certain chassis not performing as they *should* compared to other chassis of a different weight, since day 1.

Do we really want a game to have a set of OP chassis and the rest are all sub par?

And whatever happened to uniqueness? Quirks of a certain chassis?
Advantages on running a TBT instead of CN9 ?
It can't be in just the hard points we are given...

LOL None of the chassis perform as they do on TT. Not a single one. Jagers and Dragons are a joke on TT, An Atlas can crush many pairs of lights. A Hunchback with an AC20 is a scary thing to turn a corner an see! None of that menace is here. 6 PPCs remove as much armor as 3 on TT. What's wrong with it is the precision it does it with.

Usually a Treb was used in its original role, Medium Missile support and a Centurion was a Medium Cavalry.

As to sub par chassis, Most builds I could make a ton for ton fearsome build out of, just by tweaking armor, Sinks and removing the anti infantry weapons. I will reverse the question, Why was it fine for 30 years to have both sub par an superstar builds? That is because for official games the players were given what was written into the scenario, and had to make them work. Imagine what would happen if we were given the "good" Mechs from TT!!! I'm already hearing that the Shadow Hawk is turning out to be a beastly Medium.

One of my favorite TT Moments was taking a Wasp. I was running and jumping around annoying the {Scrap} out of the enemy. Then their Griffin got right up beside me and kicked my leg up into my teeth! I played the rest of the game stuck in one hex, facing to keep an enemy in sight and firing when I had a target in range. I was the last Mech left on my side! That is how MechWarrior should feel!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 November 2013 - 07:04 AM.


#8 ShadowedR

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:01 AM

View PostOneEyed Jack, on 06 November 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

And with everything PGI has done wrong, you can't blame the non-linear progression of certain stats on them, since it's taken straight from TT. And you can say what you want about TT, but it's one of the oldest TTGs there is, and still immensely popular after all these years without ever having a major rules revision. They must have done something right.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not against the TT. Not at all.
But TT exists in another framework entirely.

Copying an existing system is a sure fire way to get something off the ground.
But translating it into a new environment is a bit harder.

PGI really has their work cut out for them.
And a part of me feels bad for the dev team.
The immense responsibility with a classic such as this. It can't be easy.

#9 ShadowedR

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:06 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

One of my favorite TT Moments was taking a Wasp. I was running and jumping around annoying the {Scrap} out of the enemy. Then their Griffin got right up beside me and kicked my leg up into my teeth! I played the rest of the game stuck in one hex, facing to keep an enemy in sight and firing when I had a target in range. I was the last Mech left on my side! That is how MechWarrior should feel!


Thats brilliant.
A game should make you feel something while you are playing it.

Enabling players to customize their mechs on a fine grained level is to invite people to start MIN/MAX'ing.
Not against it. Its just that IF you are going to allow people to go nuts, at least provide them a stable platform to do it from.
Keep what you have control over, uniform.

#10 DaZur

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:08 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

That is how MechWarrior should feel!

Like you're piloting your mech with ones foot stuck in your mouth?

... I already do that! :)

#11 sokitumi

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:10 AM

View PostShadowedR, on 06 November 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:


Don't get me wrong. I'm not against the TT. Not at all.
But TT exists in another framework entirely.

Copying an existing system is a sure fire way to get something off the ground.
But translating it into a new environment is a bit harder.

PGI really has their work cut out for them.
And a part of me feels bad for the dev team.
The immense responsibility with a classic such as this. It can't be easy.

you're right. Personally I'd go a step further and just say trying to adhere to TT is daft. This game could be balanced so much easier/better if TT was just left behind where it belongs.. on a table... or in some dusty basement... next to the axis and allies box... that your parents keep threatening to throw away unless you take it asap.

#12 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:13 AM

View Postsokitumi, on 06 November 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

you're right. Personally I'd go a step further and just say trying to adhere to TT is daft. This game could be balanced so much easier/better if TT was just left behind where it belongs.. on a table... or in some dusty basement... next to the axis and allies box... that your parents keep threatening to throw away unless you take it asap.

If you don't want a BT-based game, go play a game not based on BT.

#13 sokitumi

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:16 AM

View PostOneEyed Jack, on 06 November 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

If you don't want a BT-based game, go play a game not based on BT.

Like for ex. MW2, 3, 4? They had no problems seeing the problems of converting an apple into an orange. And each of those was a 4star AAA game of it's time.

I'm not sure you're using the phrase "based on" correctly.

Edited by sokitumi, 06 November 2013 - 07:20 AM.


#14 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:19 AM

View PostDaZur, on 06 November 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Like you're piloting your mech with ones foot stuck in your mouth?

... I already do that! :)

Nah. Thats the feeling you get when your Regulator gets its lift skirt damaged in the first round and you become a pillbox! T Players from GenCon 08 Still whisper about the insane(yet devilishly hansom) player at the battle of Outreach.

View Postsokitumi, on 06 November 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Like for ex. MW2, 3, 4? They had no problems seeing the problems converting an apple into an orange. And each of those was a 4star AAA game of it's time.

Which still felt like playing BattleTech. I played those games, Heat was a near perfect recreation, armor felt right, damage was good!

#15 ShadowedR

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:20 AM

View Postsokitumi, on 06 November 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

you're right. Personally I'd go a step further and just say trying to adhere to TT is daft. This game could be balanced so much easier/better if TT was just left behind where it belongs.. on a table... or in some dusty basement... next to the axis and allies box... that your parents keep threatening to throw away unless you take it asap.


To some extent, yes, but not entirely.
You have thousands of years of history to tie into your game.
That and a stack of hardcore fans. TT & MW fans.

You have to keep a link to TT to some degree :)

#16 Dr Slap

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:32 AM

Good Post, but i can't follow your conclusions and some Statements.

Some Feedback:

1. Speed seems to be an exponential curve, which is good. This should be User to Offset the limited load a Licht can take. And Speed needs to grow quicker as it is a weaker game Feature than free Tonnage.

2. The heavy bumps. Again this is for gameplay Balance. The bump gives heavies a good loadout to make them a serious thread to assaults while the armour reduction keeps them killable. A linear digression would blur the differences between the classes. And buff assaults.

3. Your graphs Show why people feel that Mediums have no role. There is no distinction in weight/armor/loadout compared to lights while the punishment in Speed is much more significant due to the steep curve.

to conclude: linear stat development would make it a boring game more distinction would be beneficial to role warfare.

#17 Murphy7

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:37 AM

View PostShadowedR, on 06 November 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:


To some extent, yes, but not entirely.
You have thousands of years of history to tie into your game.
That and a stack of hardcore fans. TT & MW fans.

You have to keep a link to TT to some degree :)


Agreed.

MWO construction is at least loosely based on TT construciton rules, where

3 tons for cockpit, always
Gyro = 1 ton per 100 engine rating, rounded up (already folded into the engine stats)

Jump Jets (0.5 tons per jet for lights and mediums), (1.0 ton per jet for heavies), (2.0 tons per jet for assaults).

Engine rating had fixed allowable points: walk mp * tonnage = so a 50 ton mech could have a 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, or 400 rated engine (not really the last unless XL, but I digress)

This made different weight classes have different feels and abilities based on free tonnage left over for weapons, armor, ammo, and heat sinks.

55 tonners were the best 5/8/5 platform going, while 60 tonners were far better for the 5/8 with no jump.

There was an oddity where a 4/6 75 tonner, 80 tonner, and 85 tonner all had the same tonnage free for weapons, armor, ammo, and heat sinks - where the only difference really was in durability (IS to allow Armor).


This only applies to MWO as an artifact of the source material.

With wide open engine rating usage, the relative maneuverability of each mech has blended with less sharp destinctions, and if anything the engine cap / maximum speed limit has hurt the upper potential of light mechs.

With player skill based aiming (and perfect convergence) mech durability is a function of the HSR, the hit boxes for chassis, and the armor/structure alloted to that location based on tonnage. In kind of a cool twist, this is why the durabilty of Thunderbolts, Catapults, and Jaegermechs all feel different, where in TT their potential was exactly the same.

And as for the reason for some weight classes and chassis, there are now other considerations - torso twist, yaw and pitch, where are the weapons mounted on this chassis, what are my available hardpoints.

MWO has far from a perfect system, but it offers a new and different feel from TT that is at least familiar, and I appreciate both.

#18 sokitumi

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:43 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Which still felt like playing BattleTech. I played those games, Heat was a near perfect recreation, armor felt right, damage was good!

That's my whole point. Giant robots moving (relatively) slowly, and shooting at panels -> Will feel like BT no matter how a-retentive strict adherence to numbers they get.

Somehow I think BT purists would be totally ok with MW not being a FPS at all, using a V.A.T.S-like system from fallout. Totally based on math.

And that could fun it's own way... but it wouldn't be mechwarrior.

#19 ShadowedR

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:45 AM

View PostDr Slap, on 06 November 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Good Post, but i can't follow your conclusions and some Statements.

Some Feedback:

1. Speed seems to be an exponential curve, which is good. This should be User to Offset the limited load a Licht can take. And Speed needs to grow quicker as it is a weaker game Feature than free Tonnage.

2. The heavy bumps. Again this is for gameplay Balance. The bump gives heavies a good loadout to make them a serious thread to assaults while the armour reduction keeps them killable. A linear digression would blur the differences between the classes. And buff assaults.

3. Your graphs Show why people feel that Mediums have no role. There is no distinction in weight/armor/loadout compared to lights while the punishment in Speed is much more significant due to the steep curve.

to conclude: linear stat development would make it a boring game more distinction would be beneficial to role warfare.


Thanks for calling me out on some things.
Shows you read the post :)

Firstly, the conclusions are what you make of it. The post is more of a rant while dodging work responsibility.
Now, your questions:

1. Speed looks like an exponential curve, but it is actually Polynomial.
- It has a slight curve where the Trend Lline (Red) meets the data line (Green)
This suggests that either the 75 - 85 ton bracket is drawing more advantage from n STD200 Engine, or that the 40 - 70 tonners are being left behind. Heh

2. I am inclined to agree on the bumps as for balancing factors, but if that was so, why aren't we seeing any balancing between a Centurion, Hunchback and Trebuchet? I'm leaning towards two factors: Table Top Conversion and certain builds.
This is a guess, but I'd rate they had to give the Cataphract more available tonnage to make certain stock builds viable.
Its a guess

3. Linear development in the overall performance of mechs would indeed create a bland game, thats why I want to see differences between chassis such as Centurion, Trebuchet and Hunchback.

:o

#20 3rdworld

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:46 AM

Armor limits don't make any sense whatsoever.

Armor over max should just take up internal space.





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