910 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

ColonelMetus, on 23 February 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

its about time to give every mech ECM or access to double AMS and some tripple AMS or nerf lrms

Rather you learned to play, so maybe I wouldn't have to drop with so many derps.

[Lightfoot]

LRMs are well balanced right now. You can take just one Launcher like a LRM 10 and it assists your main weapons a little. You could take LRM20-25 and you get a split, moderately good LRMs, moderately good ACs or lasers or you could turn LRMs into your main weapon with LRM35-45 and still get an assist from some alternate weapon. This discourages boating because an LRM boat is so one-dimensional it becomes a fatal flaw.

Then there is skill. LRMs have so many targeting weaknesses they become a learned skill like any other weapon in MWO. So there is a good deal of variation when facing LRMs. Basically, if you are not being swarmed by other mechs, (in which case you already lost), you just get behind something and power-down for 5 seconds and the lock breaks and the missiles stop.

[Viperion]

OneEyed Jack, on 07 November 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Don't recall if it was the same guy, but there was definitely the same post. And it was the only other time I've ever seen the phrase "LRM Flooders."

he's probably british

[KharnZor]

I don't often die to LRM's but when i do its usually my fault.

[Khobai]

Quote

LRMs are well balanced right now.

I disagree. LRMs are poorly balanced. Not only are they less effective than pinpoint weapons like PPCs, but they also have both hard and soft counters in the form of ECM and AMS, and if that wasnt bad enough they tell the enemy theyre being launched at them and they travel so slowly they have plenty of time to dodge even in assault mechs.

IMO the following changes need to be made to LRMs:
-AMS should be required to receive missile warnings (makes AMS better and LRMs harder to dodge without it)
-LRM speed should be increased from 120m/s to 140-150m/s (makes LRMs harder to dodge)
-Artemis/TAG/NARC all need buffs, they currently don't do enough to justify the extra tonnage.

That and ECM needs another balance pass because its the single most overpowered piece of equipment in the game. And I mean actually balancing ECM itself not adding more stupid roundabout counters. ECM should not prevent missiles from firing or grant stealth at all (instead add NSS and stealth armor to give us balanced stealth that has downsides).

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[KharnZor]

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

-LRM speed should be increased from 120m/s to 140-150m/s (makes LRMs harder to dodge)

I'd be ok with this IF when they miss they impact on the ground and not follow the contour of the terrain and continue off into the distance hugging the ground

[Khobai]

Quote

I'd be ok with this IF when they miss they impact on the ground and not follow the contour of the terrain and continue off into the distance hugging the ground

Id be okay with that if you could no longer jumpjet to avoid getting hit by them and if they no longer exploded on the surface of water. Water should not protect light mechs from damage.

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2014 - 11:13 AM.

[KharnZor]

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Id be okay with that if you could no longer jumpjet to avoid getting hit by them and if they no longer exploded on the surface of water. Water should not protect light mechs from damage.

I'm ok with that.

[Kjudoon]

KharnZor, on 23 February 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'd be ok with this IF when they miss they impact on the ground and not follow the contour of the terrain and continue off into the distance hugging the ground

Right now, LRMs take just under 8 seconds to reach final range if they went in a straight line. But since they don't, it's often more between 8-10 seconds. This should be down to at least 5-4 seconds which puts their speed at 200-250mps and that is in the same range as SRMs. Considering it takes less than a full second for ACs and PPCs (which travel slower than half the ACs) I don't think that is unreasonable.

As for missile warnings, I don't agree with having AMS to get missile warnings. This is something based on sensors. It would be nice if AMS worked ONLY on missiles targetted at you so it doesn't burn up on shots just flying overhead, AND volleys are not eaten up by clouds of AMS from a half dozen mechs that can safely ignore them. With the coming chaff module... It seems a fair compromise.

- NARC is getting an awesome anti-ECM buff, so that's something to be happy for.
- Artemis is going to be altered in how it's implemented to that of being a separate component at a hugely discounted price.
- Tag needs a buff to have lock out to 2000m and/or be half a ton at most. It's a sighting laser for crying out loud! Why is it as heavy as a ML???

[KharnZor]

Kjudoon, on 23 February 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

Right now, LRMs take just under 8 seconds to reach final range if they went in a straight line. But since they don't, it's often more between 8-10 seconds. This should be down to at least 5-4 seconds which puts their speed at 200-250mps and that is in the same range as SRMs. Considering it takes less than a full second for ACs and PPCs (which travel slower than half the ACs) I don't think that is unreasonable.

As for missile warnings, I don't agree with having AMS to get missile warnings. This is something based on sensors. It would be nice if AMS worked ONLY on missiles targetted at you so it doesn't burn up on shots just flying overhead, AND volleys are not eaten up by clouds of AMS from a half dozen mechs that can safely ignore them. With the coming chaff module... It seems a fair compromise.

- NARC is getting an awesome anti-ECM buff, so that's something to be happy for.
- Artemis is going to be altered in how it's implemented to that of being a separate component at a hugely discounted price.
- Tag needs a buff to have lock out to 2000m and/or be half a ton at most. It's a sighting laser for crying out loud! Why is it as heavy as a ML???

erm. ok.
What does that have to do with what i said?

[Kjudoon]

Sorry, grabbed the wrong quote.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

I disagree. LRMs are poorly balanced. Not only are they less effective than pinpoint weapons like PPCs, but they also have both hard and soft counters in the form of ECM and AMS, and if that wasnt bad enough they tell the enemy theyre being launched at them and they travel so slowly they have plenty of time to dodge even in assault mechs.

IMO the following changes need to be made to LRMs:
-AMS should be required to receive missile warnings (makes AMS better and LRMs harder to dodge without it)
-LRM speed should be increased from 120m/s to 140-150m/s (makes LRMs harder to dodge)
-Artemis/TAG/NARC all need buffs, they currently don't do enough to justify the extra tonnage.

That and ECM needs another balance pass because its the single most overpowered piece of equipment in the game. And I mean actually balancing ECM itself not adding more stupid roundabout counters. ECM should not prevent missiles from firing or grant stealth at all (instead add NSS and stealth armor to give us balanced stealth that has downsides).

Agreed. Whole system needs a re-work starting with ECM.

It's stupid and makes it so LRM's look strong to bad players and terrible when those bad players try to use them against good players.

[Tesunie]

ColonelMetus, on 23 February 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

its about time to give every mech ECM or access to double AMS and some tripple AMS or nerf lrms

Like LRMs need to be nurfed even more. The weapon system that is considered one of the worse weapons in the game currently, with one of the most risky chances on if it will even work...

Counters to LRMs:
- They tell you they are coming in.
- AMS reduces the number of missiles that hit you (sometimes a single system can even take out an entire 10-20 LRM group, I've seen it happen).
- AMS can be grouped up by a team to make LRMs completely useless.
- ECM prevents most LRMs from being able to lock.
- BAP (a counter to ECM) doesn't interupt ECM before it will inturupt your lock if they get close to you. Sure, it turns ECM off when it gets close, but before it gets close enough to turn it off, it still disables your locks for a few moments.
- TAG is the only long range ECM cutting tool, and it works out to 750m right now (which is fine). However, it takes up a ton, and takes up what could possibly be a energy weapon slot in it's place. It also requires direct line of sight. Combine direct line of sight, non-aimable weapons, and the following point...
- LRMs are the slowest moving weapon in the game. Jump up and down at the right time, or if you are fast enough and run perpendicular to the LRMs, and you can effectively dodge ALL the LRMs that are heading towards you.
- NARC takes up a missile slot, which could be an LRM system, and weighs a lot, doesn't have much ammo, (currently, but will soon change) is also disabled by ECM, and has a very short range. (Oh, and it's manually aimed too, which means you have to be close, aiming, and in direct line of sight, most of which is bad for LRMs to be in.)
- LRMs damage whatever they land into, and don't focus damage anywhere. They are not as likely to core you out as they are most likely going to splash their 5-20ish damage all over the place, and many missiles will miss. (I have a about a 33% hit rate with my LRMs, and I don't blindly fire them at targets. Do the math here. If I have an LRM20 launcher, and only 33% of my missiles hit, and each missile does 1.1 damage per... how much damage am I really doing to do most times? That comes out to be about 7.26 damage per LRM20 launcher, which weighs 10 tons, plus at least 1 ton for ammo... Don't forget the TAG needed to get through ECM, and probably Artemis to help with Accuracy and stuff which is 1 more ton... That's 13 tons for a single LRM20 launcher which is, on average, doing 7.26 damage per volley. FEAR ME!)
- Hard 180m minimum range and then they do no damage.
- Must hold their locks for the entire flight duration, or most likely they will miss.
- Need I go on?

However, LRMs do have some Advantages:
- They can fire indirectly, using a teammates lock, provided it's steady enough...
- Don't need to be "aimed" per say.

Khobai, on 23 February 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

IMO the following changes need to be made to LRMs:
-AMS should be required to receive missile warnings (makes AMS better and LRMs harder to dodge without it)
-LRM speed should be increased from 120m/s to 140-150m/s (makes LRMs harder to dodge)
-Artemis/TAG/NARC all need buffs, they currently don't do enough to justify the extra tonnage.

My opinions (and nothing more):
- AMS shouldn't effect missile warnings, as someone else said, that's a sensor thing.
- LRMs do need to go faster, as that will help them punch through AMS and help prevent as much dodging of the missiles. It also will help users to need to have the target lock "stare" a little shorter.
- Artemis/TAG I think are in decent places right now. NARC needs some rather MASSIVE buffs to be even worth me considering on a build. Thankfully, they are expecting to get a buff soon... if it will be enough we shall find out then.

KharnZor, on 23 February 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'd be ok with this IF when they miss they impact on the ground and not follow the contour of the terrain and continue off into the distance hugging the ground

That is a BUG, and is not intended. I see this when they "hit" a slopped edge, and instead of hitting said edge, they instead "hover" over it. It's like they can't figure out the ground is there because of the angle. I'm almost thinking this is due to the "movement system" that was placed in for mechs and hills. It didn't do it before that was added in that I know of...

Kjudoon, on 23 February 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

- Tag needs a buff to have lock out to 2000m and/or be half a ton at most. It's a sighting laser for crying out loud! Why is it as heavy as a ML???

Why would TAG need a buff to go out to 2000m? LRMs can't reach that far, and TAG was not intended for the LRM using mech to place (though we do it that way, and nothing is wrong with that), but was meant to be placed onto a spotting mech instead. I feel that, considering LRM max range, 750m isn't too bad right now.

I also don't think they need to be lighter, but they could use to not take up an energy hard point, and instead either take up a hard point of their own, or be able to be freely placed like BAP, ammo, heat sinks, etc. (Of course, these are my thoughts/opinions on the subject.)

[Oni Ralas]

LRM's are broken, have been broken, and will likely remain broken. The moment I got a developer to admit they nerfed them to the ground due to QQ of the masses, I knew it was a lost cause. There is no single weapon in the entire MWO sphere which has as much stacked against it as the LRM.


I've just returned after a long absence, just to scope things out. And, like always, I dusted off my 6LRm5 trollcat and went out hunting. I still killed people with it, and managed some quite decent scores too - but I've spent nearly all my MWO career (since late '11...sheesh!) on mobile LRM firing skills. They're still broken, in a big way, and the only folks that could be even remotely decent with them have had plenty of seat time to know the flight patterns and speed by heart. And it's only really useful if all the other cards fall into place - namely decent team with scouting and/or countering ECM (which NO ONE DOES anymore... ugh). The chances of it going well are far less than it going bad, which is another reason I do it - it adds a level of excitement to an otherwise slow paced and (gasp) somewhat boring climate.

Edited by Oni Ralas, 23 February 2014 - 04:55 PM.

[Kjudoon]

The TAG does 3 things: Cuts ECM (outside of 200m if they got that close), Collects target information for alll mechs to see where it's damaged and loaded with, allows for locks (should be instant locks) for alll guided weapons that fire on the TAGged target.

Why 2000m? That's the range approximately of an AC2. they can use the sensor data to try to hit components.

Yes it is more for scouts, but since nobody outside of a premade pug lance packs TAG for friendlies, usually the LRM boat has to go get it's own locks because of whiny "I don't want them to steal my kill" brawlers and idiots who don't understand what team play is about. TAG is awesome for LRMishers who engage at 4-600m and use there LRMs like guided ACs.

Honestly, Tag should be a module or like Endo-Steel mods that has a half ton of weight and no slots if it stays only at 750m with all the limitations currently in place. And yes, I know how insane would be with TAG lasers after that.

[Kjudoon]

Oni Ralas, on 23 February 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

LRM's are broken, have been broken, and will likely remain broken. The moment I got a developer to admit they nerfed them to the ground due to QQ of the masses, I knew it was a lost cause. There is no single weapon in the entire MWO sphere which has as much stacked against it as the LRM.


I've just returned after a long absence, just to scope things out. And, like always, I dusted off my 6LRm5 trollcat and went out hunting. I still killed people with it, and managed some quite decent scores too - but I've spent nearly all my MWO career (since late '11...sheesh!) on mobile LRM firing skills. They're still broken, in a big way, and the only folks that could be even remotely decent with them have had plenty of seat time to know the flight patterns and speed by heart. And it's only really useful if all the other cards fall into place - namely decent team with scouting and/or countering ECM (which NO ONE DOES anymore... ugh). The chances of it going well are far less than it going bad, which is another reason I do it - it adds a level of excitement to an otherwise slow paced and (gasp) somewhat boring climate.

LRMs will remain broken as long as they keep trying to pander to high skill twitch munchkins who are the only ones who can use the hard to use weapons of the game which are buffed into being the best weapons of the game, thereby leaving the rest of the bell curve out in the cold... with their money.

Subsidize (buff) something, you get more of it. Tax (nerf) something, you'll get less of it. What is true in economics is true in game rules too. If all you want are poptart pinpoint twitch munchkins oneshotting everyone with double gauss snipers... well, make sure no other weapon can compete with it. To me the only way to compete with the meta is to make equal ways to achieve the same results.

[wanderer]

To give people an idea- if there's three AMS systems in the line of fire of my 'Phract-2X, I won't deal significant damage.

With two LRM 15 racks. Group fired.

Tested repeatedly and deliberately. One dual-AMS that gets to track a flight as it passes by will shred my salvo to bits, a third AMS will reduce it to a few minor love taps.

A lance that invests in 1.5 tons of AMS + ammo will neutralize me until and if they run out of ammo- and that's not even taking the usual LRM stoppers (terrain, ECM, loss of LOS) into account. I hit with about 25% of my shots as it is- and that's just assuming at least one missile makes it to target.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 24 February 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

To give people an idea- if there's three AMS systems in the line of fire of my 'Phract-2X, I won't deal significant damage.

With two LRM 15 racks. Group fired.

Tested repeatedly and deliberately. One dual-AMS that gets to track a flight as it passes by will shred my salvo to bits, a third AMS will reduce it to a few minor love taps.

A lance that invests in 1.5 tons of AMS + ammo will neutralize me until and if they run out of ammo- and that's not even taking the usual LRM stoppers (terrain, ECM, loss of LOS) into account. I hit with about 25% of my shots as it is- and that's just assuming at least one missile makes it to target.

You know, this wasn't something TT had. But I must say I like seeing it. I had a match a few months back where a Stalker with 2 LRM15s was firing on my D-DC. I was with 6-8 other players huddled behind the hill. Our AMS shot down every salvo fired at me. As my allies were out of sight, it may have looked like I was cheating, but the thrill of being safe from 30 incoming missiles was exhilarating.

[Kazma]

wow, 31 pages already

[wanderer]

Quote

As my allies were out of sight, it may have looked like I was cheating, but the thrill of being safe from 30 incoming missiles was exhilarating.

Fortunately, you can see the AMS tracer streams from not-seen units engaging a flight.

I actually use it to "scout" approaches. Chuck a shot over a hill, watch for tracers. Hello, hiding peoples. Thank you for drawing me a pointer.