910 replies to this topic

[VXJaeger]

ColonelMetus, on 19 March 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

now that the 2nd LRMPOCOLYPSE is upon us everyone will turn to this post and go "that guy.... he predicted all this"

This is already 4th...

[Lyoto Machida]

VXJaeger, on 19 March 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

This is already 4th...

Lol...he's on something, I think.

Besides...I don't think LRM50 salvos coming down on your head qualify as "LRM Flooding" hahaha.

[VXJaeger]

Lyoto Machida, on 19 March 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

Besides...I don't think LRM50 salvos coming down on your head qualify as "LRM Flooding" hahaha.

Compared to previous LRMpocalypses, this is child's play and rather harmless. People just' tries them out, see that they still aren't so OP weapon as they expected, install AMS' and move on.

LRM's are better than they were, but they aren't instakill OP murderers as they has been on previous LRMpocalypses. Good to get assists, but killing someone with them is just painful.

[ColonelMetus]

dem chuld maike eech tun uf lrm ammo give missiles, more then wun thousand and then make nurf on the lrm so tahit averywuen can has them wit oot baing over powdered liek dynasty worriors gungdam LOL

[AlmightyAeng]

LRMpocalypse had splash damage. This doesn't. It put missiles on par with the direct-fire AC/PPC meta...in the right hands.

If they'd only buff up SRM's and make pulse lasers less than worthless, it'd be balanced ™.

[Dimento Graven]

My opinion of the current state of LRMs is, BY THEMSELVES (meaning no TAG/NARC, artemis, BAP, or modules) the missiles are probably balanced just fine.

However, start tossing in all the cumulative affects of:

TAG
NARC
Artemis
BAP
Adv. Target Decay
Adv. Sensor Range
UAV

Suddenly, LRMs become EXTREMELY over powered.

Higher missile speed, plus the above add-ons, significantly decreases the efficacy of all the strategies used to mitigate missiles in the past:

AMS stacks
Cover
ECM

NARC and TAG completely defeat ECM now.
The speed of missiles significantly eliminates your chance to find cover.
The speed of missiles reduces the time AMS has to reduce the incoming missiles spread.

What I would have liked to have seen in a missile speed buff is the speed increase occur at 200 meters or less from target, meaning: Missiles fired will travel at the old speed of 120 meters during the 'soft lock' period, where the missiles are relying 100% on your target information, and then the last 200 meters, speed up to 175 when missiles own lock+your mech's lock provide "hard lock".

I doubt this is feasible with the current engine, but it would have been "more better" than a near 50% speed increase...

[Varent]

loved the patch, was nice to see lrms get some love.

[KnowBuddy]

LRMs needed a speed increase. The risk of CT exposure and lock-loss while lobbing a volley at 700-800m out and having to hold lock for an obscenely long time is something people on the receiving end just don't consider. It's still an investment, but it feels very slightly less frustrating now. Based on some play testing last night (assisted by the stats reset), my LRM stats went from 28% accuracy to 37% accuracy. Compare this to 80-90% for lasers (non-pulse) and 60% for AC5s and PPCs. (This is with no build changes). Wow, quite an investment in explodey-pieces stashed around a 'Mech for mostly playing lawn darts.

When you think about it, LRMs got a 45.8% speed increase, while AMS got a 33.3% range increase. On paper this looks like LRMs were buffed approximately 12.5% versus AMS. The reality is much less, as demonstrated by the accuracy numbers. ECM is still a hard counter. Cover is still a hard counter. Speed is still effective at mitigating LRM damage, but not immunity.

The main impact of the changes appear to be making AMS worthwhile again (and double-AMS finally make sense). LRMs now have a snowball's chance of hitting a target going over 100kph (I'd say about 50% outside of 300m, anecdotally), which is good since no other weapon system was largely ineffective versus both high-speed lights and the ECM-shielded like LRMs were. And LRMs are now somewhat effective versus poptarts (though the PoPC/AC meta is most definitely not dethroned). Of course, after a patch, a large portion of the game population is going to try out the main changes, so we're seeing more LRMs. But from spectating, it's pretty clear to me that it's only the players who already knew how to handle LRMs effectively who are getting a significant boost in damage potential.

Ironically, because of the increased LRM and AMS prevalence, the specific build and strategy that the OP was complaining about is now almost completely ineffective.

[Dimento Graven]

KnowBuddy, on 19 March 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

...
ECM is still a hard counter. Cover is still a hard counter. Speed is still effective at mitigating LRM damage, but not immunity.

Until you throw in TAG and NARC which now completely counter ECM, (and maybe BAP which as I recall counters a single ECM at specific ranges, but not completely sure I'm remembering that right), or UAV which appears to counter ECM as well. Heck, even firing a PPC into an ECM capable 'mech eliminates the ECM for a while (...though interestingly enough seems to only remove the ECM affect ON THAT 'mech, any mech under his bubble is STILL ECM'd anyone else notice this?), or another ECM on DISRUPT.

I just think the implementation of the LRM change was incorrect. It should have been a 'tail end' boost, not a flat increase, but as I mentioned in my previous post, I don't think this engine could support something like that.

Quote

The main impact of the changes appear to be making AMS worthwhile again (and double-AMS finally make sense). LRMs now have a snowball's chance of hitting a target going over 100kph (I'd say about 50% outside of 300m, anecdotally), which is good since no other weapon system was largely ineffective versus both high-speed lights and the ECM-shielded like LRMs were. And LRMs are now somewhat effective versus poptarts (though the PoPC/AC meta is most definitely not dethroned). Of course, after a patch, a large portion of the game population is going to try out the main changes, so we're seeing more LRMs. But from spectating, it's pretty clear to me that it's only the players who already knew how to handle LRMs effectively who are getting a significant boost in damage potential.

Ironically, because of the increased LRM and AMS prevalence, the specific build and strategy that the OP was complaining about is now almost completely ineffective.

I disagree with you, my experience is very different from yours apparently.

Missiles were already very affective and being used quite a bit BEFORE the patch, and now AFTER? It's more than just one or two missile boats per match, it's sometimes as many as 8...

[Khobai]

Quote

Until you throw in TAG and NARC which now completely counter ECM

Multiple overlapping AMS and ECMs still shuts down LRMs completely.

LRMs absolutely needed a speed increase because LRMs are supposed to outrange PPCs. Without the speed increase LRMs were lucky to hit something 500m away which gave PPCs superior range. Now LRMs are where they need to be in terms of effective range.

It was completely stupid that one of the longest range weapons in battletech was a medium range weapon at best in MWO. So this change was a good thing. If you dont like LRMs, take ECM and AMS. If enough people on your team do it, it shuts them down.

Edited by Khobai, 19 March 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Khobai, on 19 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Multiple overlapping AMS and ECMs still shuts down LRMs completely.

Which brings us to why we need more than 5 chassis capable of carrying ECM. But even with multiple stacked, UAV, plus friendly ECM set to DISRUPT, plus TAG, plus NARC, plus (potentially) BAP... Missiles ALREADY have WAY MORE help than any other weapon system in the game.

Not to mention, get underneath, what, 250 meters I think, and ECM is no longer a factor...

Quote

LRMs absolutely needed a speed increase because LRMs are supposed to outrange PPCs. Without the speed increase LRMs were lucky to hit something 500m away which gave PPCs superior range. Now LRMs are where they need to be in terms of effective range.

Actually if I look at original BT weapons tables, that's not necessarily true.

Quote

It was completely stupid that one of the longest range weapons in battletech was a medium range weapon at best in MWO. So this change was a good thing. If you dont like LRMs, take ECM and AMS. If enough people on your team do it, it shuts them down.

Again, if that's your solution you're limited to 5 possible chassis, 3 of which are light, one a medium, and one assault.

Makes for a rather bland game...

NOW... You make ECM generally available to ANY chassis, we'll talk.

[Khobai]

Quote

Actually if I look at original BT weapons tables, that's not necessarily true.

Yes it is. These are the battletech ranges:

PPC = 6/12/18
LRM = 7/14/21

LRMs should outrange PPCs. But because energy weapons got x2 range and LRMs only got x1.4 range, and because LRMs traveled so slowly, the range balance of PPCs vs LRMs was fundamentally altered in MWO. Speeding up LRMs helped correct that.

Im not saying ECM/LRM interaction isnt stupid. Its completely retar ded. But the reality is as long as ECM is overpowered and counters LRMs than LRMs need to be on the strong side to be balanced... because a weapon that has counters should be stronger than a weapon that has no counters. Because of ECM and AMS, an LRM10 should be outright better than a PPC.

IMO LRMs still arnt strong enough to overcome the downside of ECM and AMS. And artemis is certainly too weak for the tonnage/crits it takes up. An LRM20 with artemis still has way worse spread than an LRM5 without artemis. Its a joke.

Quote

Which brings us to why we need more than 5 chassis capable of carrying ECM.

Its your choice not to play a mech with ECM. We dont need more mechs with ECM. We just need more players willing to be team players and play the existing mechs with ECM. If LRMs are the most popular weapon and youre not playing a mech with ECM/AMS youre not doing everything you could to help your team.

Edited by Khobai, 19 March 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[WVAnonymous]

Khobai, on 19 March 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

Yes it is.

PPC = 6/12/18
LRM = 7/14/21

LRMs should outrange PPCs

2 LRM 15 should be roughly equal in usefulness to 2 PPCs, and 2 LRM 20 should really be serious artillery on a mech.

I approve of the current conditions.

[KnowBuddy]

Dimento Graven, on 19 March 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Until you throw in TAG and NARC which now completely counter ECM, (and maybe BAP which as I recall counters a single ECM at specific ranges, but not completely sure I'm remembering that right), or UAV which appears to counter ECM as well. Heck, even firing a PPC into an ECM capable 'mech eliminates the ECM for a while (...though interestingly enough seems to only remove the ECM affect ON THAT 'mech, any mech under his bubble is STILL ECM'd anyone else notice this?), or another ECM on DISRUPT.

I just think the implementation of the LRM change was incorrect. It should have been a 'tail end' boost, not a flat increase, but as I mentioned in my previous post, I don't think this engine could support something like that.

I disagree with you, my experience is very different from yours apparently.

Missiles were already very affective and being used quite a bit BEFORE the patch, and now AFTER? It's more than just one or two missile boats per match, it's sometimes as many as 8...

Sure, your experience may be different than mine, and we're free to disagree and have different opinions. However, TAG does not completely counter ECM, TAG has a 750m max range, and lasts a piddly amount of time after losing TAG-on-target. Similarly, even with the LRM speed increase, PPC-disrupt still doesn't last long enough to keep LRM lock for a hit over 500m. I used to carry a very odd loadout of TAG, Artemis, BAP, ERPPC, LRM30 but I've dropped the ERPPC since the patch, since it's just not providing the ability to use LRMs at LONG RANGE like where the poptart snipers are. I'm fine with UAV countering ECM, since it is a consumable which provides line-of-sight for up to a minute maximum. But then, ECM as implemented in MWO is downright incorrect and still ton-for-ton, the most powerful piece of equipment bar none.

The key term here is "AFTER THE PATCH." Everyone gets their panties in a bunch in the few days after a patch when that's only an indication of people trying things out, not necessarily "the new normal."

Khobai, on 19 March 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Multiple overlapping AMS and ECMs still shuts down LRMs completely.

LRMs absolutely needed a speed increase because LRMs are supposed to outrange PPCs. Without the speed increase LRMs were lucky to hit something 500m away which gave PPCs superior range. Now LRMs are where they need to be in terms of effective range.

It was completely stupid that one of the longest range weapons in battletech was a medium range weapon at best in MWO. So this change was a good thing. If you dont like LRMs, take ECM and AMS. If enough people on your team do it, it shuts them down.

QFT. I used to call out that I carried MRMs to teammates. I still do poorly with LRMs beyond 600m, they still really only work well between 250-600m.

Dimento Graven, on 19 March 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

But even with multiple stacked, UAV, plus friendly ECM set to DISRUPT, plus TAG, plus NARC, plus (potentially) BAP... Missiles ALREADY have WAY MORE help than any other weapon system in the game.

LRMs already have WAY MORE counters than any other weapon system in the game by a factor of about 5, all of which stack and also stack with teammates' counters.

Dimento Graven, on 19 March 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Not to mention, get underneath, what, 250 meters I think, and ECM is no longer a factor...

Sure, and LRMs are not very effective under 250m, and totally ineffective below 180m. This and the inability of LRMs to work adequately at long range are why many experienced LRM-boaters don't bother loading BAP.

Dimento Graven, on 19 March 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

NOW... You make ECM generally available to ANY chassis, we'll talk.

Unlikely to happen, sorry.

Khobai, on 19 March 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

Yes it is. These are the battletech ranges:

PPC = 6/12/18
LRM = 7/14/21

LRMs should outrange PPCs. But because energy weapons got x2 range and LRMs only got x1.4 range, and because LRMs traveled so slowly, the range balance of PPCs vs LRMs was fundamentally altered in MWO. Speeding up LRMs helped correct that.

Im not saying ECM/LRM interaction isnt stupid. Its completely retar ded. But the reality is as long as ECM is overpowered and counters LRMs than LRMs need to be on the strong side to be balanced... because a weapon that has counters should be stronger than a weapon that has no counters. Because of ECM and AMS, an LRM10 should be outright better than a PPC.

This is true. LRMs are supposed to be the longest range weapon system in the game. ECM is not supposed to hard counter missile locks. AMS is supposed to be useful. Just because people have a visceral reaction to that incoming missile warning doesn't mean that LRMs are as effective at actually doing damage as people think they are.

Edited by KnowBuddy, 19 March 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

2 LRM 15 should be roughly equal in usefulness to 2 PPCs, and 2 LRM 20 should really be serious artillery on a mech.

How do you figure?

An LRM10 with 2 tons of ammo takes up the same tonnage/more crits than a PPC.

So an LRM15 should be better than a PPC. An LRM15 with artemis/tag should be WAY better.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 19 March 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

How do you figure?

An LRM10 with 2 tons of ammo takes up the same tonnage/more crits than a PPC.

So an LRM15 should be better than a PPC. An LRM15 with artemis/tag should be WAY better.

But for that weight an LRM10 averages 7 damage per salvo or equal to a Large laser.

[Rebas Kradd]

Ghost Badger, on 19 March 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

LRMpocalypse had splash damage. This doesn't. It put missiles on par with the direct-fire AC/PPC meta...in the right hands.

If they'd only buff up SRM's and make pulse lasers less than worthless, it'd be balanced ™.

No, you'd still have that group of about ten forumwarriors griping about how the game isn't "even remotely" balanced until NARC is lighter and command console has a purpose.

[KnowBuddy]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 March 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

But for that weight an LRM10 averages 7 damage per salvo or equal to a Large laser with a roughly 4 second duration, limited ammo, and the risk of ammo explosions.

FTFY

[Joseph Mallan]

KnowBuddy, on 19 March 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

FTFY

not sure that is the right words for that...

[Dimento Graven]

KnowBuddy, on 19 March 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Sure, your experience may be different than mine, and we're free to disagree and have different opinions. However, TAG does not completely counter ECM, TAG has a 750m max range, and lasts a piddly amount of time after losing TAG-on-target.

TAG makes an ECM'd target lockable up to 750m range. TAG lasts as long as someone is TAG'ing it. Please don't try and minimize its effect. If it's not working for you, your spotters are bad, an experienced spotter with TAG working with an experienced, properly equipped, LRM boat pilot was a DEADLY combination BEFORE the speed boost.

Now... Haysooos FRIGGIN marimba...

Quote

Similarly, even with the LRM speed increase, PPC-disrupt still doesn't last long enough to keep LRM lock for a hit over 500m. I used to carry a very odd loadout of TAG, Artemis, BAP, ERPPC, LRM30 but I've dropped the ERPPC since the patch, since it's just not providing the ability to use LRMs at LONG RANGE like where the poptart snipers are.

The disrupt is what? I think at least 4 seconds (correct me if I'm wrong). At 500m that's only a bit over 2 seconds flight time. Artemis+TAG locks in half a second, so in under 3 seconds you've delivered a missile salvo on a PPC disrupted 'mech at 500 meters.

Quote

I'm fine with UAV countering ECM, since it is a consumable which provides line-of-sight for up to a minute maximum. But then, ECM as implemented in MWO is downright incorrect and still ton-for-ton, the most powerful piece of equipment bar none.

We disagree about the power of ECM since it really only affected TWO weapons, LRMs and SSRMs. LRMs wasn't as bad as everyone wants to make out because you could STILL fire LRMs at stationary targets without locks and hit them effectively.

Quote

The key term here is "AFTER THE PATCH." Everyone gets their panties in a bunch in the few days after a patch when that's only an indication of people trying things out, not necessarily "the new normal."

Having been through 3 other LRM debacles from PGI, all of which were addressed via hot fix, I can tell you the resulting hew and cry is NOT without some actual standing.

Quote

QFT. I used to call out that I carried MRMs to teammates. I still do poorly with LRMs beyond 600m, they still really only work well between 250-600m.

We're obviously using our LRMs differently. I have no problem with using them effectively between 180 and 800m.

Quote

LRMs already have WAY MORE counters than any other weapon system in the game by a factor of about 5, all of which stack and also stack with teammates' counters.

I can only think of a few SET equipable LRM counters:

ECM
AMS
having a fast 'mech

Everything else:
Cover

I could be having a 'senior moment' so if there's more than that, you let me know. Now, let's list what I can remember that ADD to LRM performance:

BAP
TAG
NARC
Artemis
Adv. Sensor Range
Adv. Target Decay
UAV

Maybe even more, it could be my 'senior moment' is making me forget them as well.

Quote

Sure, and LRMs are not very effective under 250m,

I can't agree with this, at all, since if they're within 250 meters having them in range of my LRMs, plus my other weapons, makes for an EXTREMELY deadly alpha... Well... We HAVE to be using LRMs extremely differently for you to say this.

Quote

and totally ineffective below 180m. This and the inability of LRMs to work adequately at long range are why many experienced LRM-boaters don't bother loading BAP.

Same response as above. Used properly they're incredibly effective at ranges up to 800 meters, beyond that and there's potentially enough time for AMS and target decay to significantly reduce their effectiveness. Of course you're talking about a weapon you can be firing at a target where you're completely out of site of the enemy and free from any risk too, so there's got to be SOME mitigating factors to it, no?

Quote

Unlikely to happen, sorry.

Too bad, if PGI doesn't do anything about this latest patch, that'd be the next best thing to do. For F's sake man, we don't even have any heavy chassis capable of ECM, that's just stupid.

Quote

This is true. LRMs are supposed to be the longest range weapon system in the game. ECM is not supposed to hard counter missile locks. AMS is supposed to be useful. Just because people have a visceral reaction to that incoming missile warning doesn't mean that LRMs are as effective at actually doing damage as people think they are.

Yeah tell that to the 36 people I killed with my missile boats last night... I'm sure they'd argue about the damage being done to them being as much as they thought it was...