910 replies to this topic

[Drunk Canuck]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

That's nothing I've ever had happen. Now if 8-10 mechs are clumped together and running AMS? THAT can ruin a lurmer's day

You seem to imply that pugs have the intelligence to run AMS, but they don't. Better to pack an extra heatsink or a medium laser because they would rather try to kill someone then live longer.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 20 November 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Mordin Ashe, on 06 November 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

Agreed, LRMs are barely viable as it is. Screenshakes in general could use a nerf though, there are too many things that shake my cockpit too much. I mean, 65 tons and one missile makes me shake like a leaf in wind. Doesn't make any sence.

I hesitate to bring actual physics into this so here's a less... problematic... comparison:

Abrams tank weighs over 60 tons, has a low center of gravity and is very stable - 1 Missile shakes it like a motel bed.

Now we have a similarly weighted vehicle with an extremely high center of gravity, stands on two legs and requires a sophisticated gyroscopic assembly to maintain balance... Add one high-explosive warhead and... what do you get?

[Drunk Canuck]

Mercules, on 19 November 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Um... it is spread all over the mech and SOMEONE is exposed so that they can lock on. Kill that guy.

Hardly, AMS will shoot down around 5 missiles in a 15 volley, however multiples triggered at the same time reduces the total number of missiles shot down, even with dual AMS, I can take massive damage from an LRM boat alpha strike. I have been hit by LRM 45 with Artemis alpha's and I can go from fresh to orange in the CT and my sides are hardly even yellow in my Jester. LRM's need some retooling like widening the spread with Artemis and making AMS shoot down more missiles, or returning the firing arc to what it was before they gave them the magic buff stick.

[Nimura Nekogami]

Drunk Canuck, on 20 November 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Hardly, AMS will shoot down around 5 missiles in a 15 volley, however multiples triggered at the same time reduces the total number of missiles shot down, even with dual AMS, I can take massive damage from an LRM boat alpha strike. I have been hit by LRM 45 with Artemis alpha's and I can go from fresh to orange in the CT and my sides are hardly even yellow in my Jester. LRM's need some retooling like widening the spread with Artemis and making AMS shoot down more missiles, or returning the firing arc to what it was before they gave them the magic buff stick.

If you got hit with 45 LRM`s you should deserve an orange CT? (also: you used an Catapult.....the walking CT )

LRM`s are at the moment in an good state. It is an good fire-support-weapon. there is enough cover to take on every map.

[Galenit]

I have the impression that something wiht ams is wrong.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it works not.
Tonight in a match i was spectating a mech with ams and 700 ammo left, he was shoot by mass-lrm5, he died, the ams has still 700 ammo left.

Maybe its about the ping?
Like the hits that give no feedback ...

[St4LkeRxF]

DrxAbstract, on 20 November 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

I hesitate to bring actual physics into this so here's a less... problematic... comparison:

Abrams tank weighs over 60 tons, has a low center of gravity and is very stable - 1 Missile shakes it like a motel bed.

Now we have a similarly weighted vehicle with an extremely high center of gravity, stands on two legs and requires a sophisticated gyroscopic assembly to maintain balance... Add one high-explosive warhead and... what do you get?

For start Abrams can use smoke screen against missiles and by now it does have advanced systems against guided missiles,
next Abrmas have gun stabilizer to have target in sight no matter what while you need to use mouse to aim.

Anti tank missile purpose is to pierce armor and of course it will shake crew inside Abrams, but LRMs are more like unguided rockets that you can see on helicopters which have fragmentation warhead which wont produce that much shake on Abrams.

I am not against screen shake but we really need to find some balance, without the need for module (that doesn't help) because if we continue like this we gonna need more than 4 module slots.

[Rushin Roulette]

CapperDeluxe, on 07 November 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

The circle of OP crying life:

- LRM OP
- PPC OP
- Gauss OP
- SRM OP
- UAC OP
- PPC OP
- LRM OP

it just goes around and around and around

Well. to make this complete. there was a slight wrinkle in the last round of "X" weapon is OP. We had a short phase of "Machineguns are OP".. the one weapon people were predicting to never be included in any weapon is OP list together with the Flamer.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rushin Roulette, on 21 November 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

Well. to make this complete. there was a slight wrinkle in the last round of "X" weapon is OP. We had a short phase of "Machineguns are OP".. the one weapon people were predicting to never be included in any weapon is OP list together with the Flamer.

That was the mistake of the assuming poster. There will in fact almost always be someone that will not like weapon X.

[PappySmurf]

Mercules said---> Did you notice the Locust/Spider behind you keeping you locked for the LRMs? That is how they, "seam to just go right through them." The other possibility is that they launched them at you and you backed down the hill or behind a building but even though they lost contact the missiles still tracked to the last spot they had a lock on you and hit you anyway. You have to break LoS and move TO THE SIDE to avoid them.

I say no I did not notice a small mech by me.But the reason I made the comment is the missiles cannot be avoided by cover which makes them OP in a way. Mechwarrior4 was better on missile balance in that even though the missiles were powerful they could easily be avoided by cover. Anything just above the height of the mech would do as cover.With MWO a 1000 foot building is not enough cover its just ridicules.Also the mechs in MWO are way less maneuverable than MW4 was and the acceleration times forward and reverse are also way slower in MWO than MW4 which results in missiles being OP as well.

Edited by PappySmurf, 21 November 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[Mercules]

Drunk Canuck, on 20 November 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Hardly, AMS will shoot down around 5 missiles in a 15 volley, however multiples triggered at the same time reduces the total number of missiles shot down, even with dual AMS, I can take massive damage from an LRM boat alpha strike. I have been hit by LRM 45 with Artemis alpha's and I can go from fresh to orange in the CT and my sides are hardly even yellow in my Jester. LRM's need some retooling like widening the spread with Artemis and making AMS shoot down more missiles, or returning the firing arc to what it was before they gave them the magic buff stick.

LRMs are spread all over the mech. When they are not there are other circumstances involved like them using Artemis which means LoS between you and they and your weapons probably reach them faster. Another possibility is a TAGging spotter, who you kill or drive off. The last is you use a mech that seems to take all damage to one location... like the Catapult or Dragon who have huge CTs AND you don't bother to twist.

When I get the warning I try to spot the missiles and then turn right before they hit me. On my Shadowhawk I tend to give them my left arm, same with Centurions. Other mechs I pick the least damaged area and turn that to them. That is when I don't get the hell out of the way and break LoS.

PappySmurf, on 21 November 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

I say no I did not notice a small mech by me.But the reason I made the comment is the missiles cannot be avoided by cover which makes them OP in a way. Mechwarrior4 was better on missile balance in that even though the missiles were powerful they could easily be avoided by cover. Anything just above the height of the mech would do as cover.With MWO a 1000 foot building is not enough cover its just ridicules.Also the mechs in MWO are way less maneuverable than MW4 was and the acceleration times forward and reverse are also way slower in MWO than MW4 which results in missiles being OP as well.

I avoid missiles all the time with cover. I hear them "Wham" on the buildings, rocks, Capture Point drilling machines. When it doesn't work is when they have a spotter that has eyes on you. At that point they, and by they I mean ~I~ can pull off tricks like dropping the lock and then restoring it after the missiles have passed a certain point so they regain lock and turn to follow you around obstacles. This requires skill to do though as you have to time the "re-lock" just right or it won't work and you have to have someone who can hold that lock for you.

The other thing I see a lot of people mistakenly do is climb a hill, get the warning, and back straight up. What happens then is they get below the hill but the missile lock doesn't drop right away(because dedicated missile users and their spotters get the right modules, so the missiles still track for a bit. When they finally lose their track they still go basically to the last position and then swing down to mech level and level off then fly for a short while. So they swoop down and then fly just above ground level. If you back straight up, you get hit, end of story. So you need to back down the hill and swing left of right some to avoid them.

So these mystical, "I can't avoid them." LRMs don't exist. The possibility to avoid them is there, you just haven't learned how yet. You can't let them have a spotter and you can't just assume because you think there is an obstacle between you and them that you are safe, you need to move laterally to the person launching.

Now, if you are in an assault mech that moves 50kph< you may be correct, you might not be able to avoid missiles, but no one is forcing you to drive a slow mech.

[Sandpit]

Drunk Canuck, on 20 November 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

You seem to imply that pugs have the intelligence to run AMS, but they don't. Better to pack an extra heatsink or a medium laser because they would rather try to kill someone then live longer.

You seem to imply that pugs are mindless derps that cant' play the game. I pug almost exclusively and see plenty of mixes of AMS, ECM, etc. I have builds that have AMS and I have other builds that don't. If I drop in a mech that isn't carrying AMS then I know I need to find a buddy that does or has ECM OR I need to stay close to cover and not just derp out there to get shot up. Does it happen? Sure it does. Sometimes I'm not paying enough attention to the situation, sometimes they just have a really good spotter but I don't jump on here and rant and rage about how "op" lrms are either

[HammerSwarm]

I don't want to get all think about it here but.

Lrms should be better than other weapons: Why? they require several things to go right.

First: Direct fire weapons:
Lasers: See it, shoot it.
Ballistics: See it, Lead it, shoot it.
Neither of those have a hard counter, neither are subject to a betty warning.

Missiles:
Indirect fire: most of the time you don't see your target so you need another player to lock onto a target for you so you can lock them.
Lock time: it's not an insignificant amount of time when you are trying to lock a mech and it keeps appearing and disappearing because of cover and good play

So Assuming those 2 items have gone right you can now fire:
Missiles away: a target can break LOS and you lose your lock, or enter ecm and you lose your lock.
While Airborn: {INCOMING MISSILES BRO}

So Assuming the target stays in LOS and not ECMed
Prior to impact: AMS can take some of your missiles down lowering weapons damage, and cover can still block them even with line of site from a team mate.

Missiles are so disadvantaged that the battletech people saw fit to give them not one but two additional targetting systems and a totally separate guidance system.

I'm not saying, hey you suck if you get hit by missiles because lord knows everyone gets hit sometimes.

I am saying, hey bro there is a reason these things are good, because you have every opportunity to make them into cute fireworks by playing smart.

If anything would be a fix it would be to include more ECM mechs so the chances of being covered would be better, and fix narc so that it can be used effectively so that ECM isn't too OP when used effectively, leading to another round of missile buffs.

Edited by HammerSwarm, 21 November 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Eaerie]

I have a locust I use to force people into cover with. Armed with 2 LRM5's and a Mlas It is fast enough to get into range and position quickly, fire off a volley and dart to a new spot and repeat. I dont expect to do a whole lot of damage with the LRM's what I am aiming for is to force the mech to respond to the "incoming missiles" message and get into cover and almost always they assume the missiles came from the main group of my teammates which breaks there ability to fire on my team.
I only run a couple LRM heavy mechs (Cat, BLR, STK) and the only time i can really chew up an opponent with them is if I can get and maintain LOS with them. Its the people that charge across a large open area at the LRM mech that are just tasty bits of metal to chew up. If you come charging at me from 500+m with no cover you give me plenty of time to rain on you while keeping you TAG'ed and using artemis so every missile i fire hits (seems few people carry AMS) while still giving me plenty of room to move and spread incoming damage around AND maintain that range.

[Xyroc]

Weeks and weeks of people saying LRMs suck ... now a lot of people start using them and I guess they are OP again ....

[Joseph Mallan]

Beliall, on 21 November 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Weeks and weeks of people saying LRMs suck ... now a lot of people start using them and I guess they are OP again ....

Cause folks forget that Fire Support is supposed to be painful.

[PappySmurf]

Mercules said--> They fixed the enter key for win8 now my Quotes will not work hahaha. Anyways you said-->I avoid missiles all the time with cover. I hear them "Wham" on the buildings, rocks, Capture Point drilling machines. When it doesn't work is when they have a spotter that has eyes on you. At that point they, and by they I mean ~I~ can pull off tricks like dropping the lock and then restoring it after the missiles have passed a certain point so they regain lock and turn to follow you around obstacles. This requires skill to do though as you have to time the "re-lock" just right or it won't work and you have to have someone who can hold that lock for you.

The other thing I see a lot of people mistakenly do is climb a hill, get the warning, and back straight up. What happens then is they get below the hill but the missile lock doesn't drop right away(because dedicated missile users and their spotters get the right modules, so the missiles still track for a bit. When they finally lose their track they still go basically to the last position and then swing down to mech level and level off then fly for a short while. So they swoop down and then fly just above ground level. If you back straight up, you get hit, end of story. So you need to back down the hill and swing left of right some to avoid them.

So these mystical, "I can't avoid them." LRMs don't exist. The possibility to avoid them is there, you just haven't learned how yet. You can't let them have a spotter and you can't just assume because you think there is an obstacle between you and them that you are safe, you need to move laterally to the person launching.

Now, if you are in an assault mech that moves 50kph< you may be correct, you might not be able to avoid missiles, but no one is forcing you to drive a slow mech.

I say you may be right in one way MWO is different than MW4 was in many things missile avoidance is one of them.But you proved my point that the missiles in MWO are like the missiles were in MechAssault auto tracking to a point they even fly around buildings that should provide cove but do not or any obstacle your trying to use for cover. I play assaults to mediums and I truly cannot avoid the missile spammers because the mechs are just to un maneuverable and slow turning rates and slow acceleration times.This along with by the time they lock-fire and hit you is just a matter of seconds 3-6 at the most which with the slow maneuvering mechs you cannot get undercover fast enough to avoid death 90% of the time.Plus like you said if they have a spotter ® ing you constantly with 2-6 missile boats your fried even in a faster medium.So in conclusion I would say they need to fix the missile arc lower make the mechs turning rate and acceleration faster just more maneuverable like in Mechwarrior4 and for the love of god fix the joystick problems so it was like in Mechwarrior4 where I can use my joystick again.

[Xyroc]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 November 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Cause folks forget that Fire Support is supposed to be painful.

LOL very true ... IMO people only cry out stuff is OP when you got like 4+ mechs on the opposing team that are running the same type-ish load out. May it be LRMS , PCCs, AC/20s really dont matter. One dual 20 jagger no one bats an eye , see 5 and everyone goes crazy saying they OP. lol

[PappySmurf]

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Posted Today, 09:33 AM

Beliall, on 21 November 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Weeks and weeks of people saying LRMs suck ... now a lot of people start using them and I guess they are OP again ....

Cause folks forget that Fire Support is supposed to be painful.

Well that's just not true for many old vets of past MechWarrior PC games the missiles in all previous versions of MechWarrior were BRUTAL they could kill or knock you down easy.But they could also be countered by rushing under cover to avoid them which in away is a great balance.If you were stupid enough to get caught out in the open then you deserved what you got =death. But in MWO with the low maneuverability of the mechs and the fast lock and fire times of the auto targeting missiles there is no balance at all plus i do run AMS and it has little affect on the outcome of a missile spam.

Edited by PappySmurf, 21 November 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

PappySmurf, on 21 November 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

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Posted Today, 09:33 AM


Beliall, on 21 November 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Weeks and weeks of people saying LRMs suck ... now a lot of people start using them and I guess they are OP again ....

Cause folks forget that Fire Support is supposed to be painful.

Well that's just not true for many old vets of past MechWarrior PC games the missiles in all previous versions of MechWarrior were BRUTAL they could kill or knock you down easy.But they could also be countered by rushing under cover to avoid them which in away is a great balance.If you were stupid enough to get caught out in the open then you deserved what you got =death. But in MWO with the low maneuverability of the mechs and the fast lock and fire times of the auto targeting missiles there is no balance at all plus i do run AMS and it has little affect on the outcome of a missile spam.

Your post is a little confusing... could you fix the formatting. I have only had a problem with LRMs when the game has failed to recognize cover I am behind or under. Now if I got cause out in a storm, then that's my fault not the rain's.

[PappySmurf]

Joseph said-->Your post is a little confusing... could you fix the formatting. I have only had a problem with LRMs when the game has failed to recognize cover I am behind or under. Now if I got cause out in a storm, then that's my fault not the rain's.

I would love to fix the format Joseph but PGI just cannot seem to get WIN8 and there website to work properly when every one else on the internet can??

Plus i forgot to add the fact to many times my mechs get caught in open terrain stuck on a invisible object and by the time I get my slow maneuvering mech turned around and moving again im dead from missile spam or other mechs weapons fire.So the invisible objects that stick you in place on all maps might be another reason people are dying so fast.