910 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Kutfroat, on 21 November 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

lrms should´nt even be discussed in their current state. autolock/autoaim is ok for ssrms, as a short range defense against fast moving light mechs. lrm flooding is just a sad trolling mechanism for bored or unskilled players. make them indirect firesupport incapable of killing or force some skill based gamplaymechanic onto them. and the sad part is, the way lrms work now, they don´t even need a brain or any sense of srategy/tactic to be used, just lameness. they only favor the same boring gamplay as artillery in wot did...just stay as close as possible to cover and jumpjet-snipe.

Well you're entitled to your opinion. Not many agree with you, but you're entitled to it. You've done nothing but talk about how there's "no skill" involved in using them. If it takes no skill at all then what can't everyone use them effectively. If they were really the way you're describing them, there would be no other weapon used since there would be no need. The LRMs (with the exception of damage, trajectory, and cluster) have worked the exact same way in every single iteration of the MW series. That's how they work. If you're REALLY that concerned on how they work, why don't you offer ideas on how YOU would implement them and how the mechanic should work instead of "LRMs suck and has no skills."?

[Victor Morson]

Anyone who says LRMs take no skill to use effectively is a full of themselves newbie wanting to take it out on the mean LRM boats for shaking their screen.

LRMs require the most pre-planning and positioning of any weapon in the game. Most guns are "Aim at dude and pull trigger" with the only other factors being range & heat.

I've been over this before in the thread but LRM users have about a dozen factors at any given time.

[Joseph Mallan]

Victor Morson, on 21 November 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Anyone who says LRMs take no skill to use effectively is a full of themselves newbie wanting to take it out on the mean LRM boats for shaking their screen.

about this...

Quote

the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub.

answers the position quite well.

[Lyoto Machida]

Kutfroat, on 21 November 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

are you serious? are you seriously implying that lrms - the lock on and keeping it - require any skill at all? be honest to your self! maybe if you´re 80+, blind on one eye and only got one hand. your´re so far away that you barely need to move the crosshair to keep it on target...if you really think lrms need the slightest skill, you really should stick to other games. if you really struggle to keep the target locked besides losing the lock because you have no line of sight or no ally targeting for you, this is definitely not your game.

Troll or doesn't understand game mechanics...there's no other explanation for this.

Case closed.

Or maybe he can show us how it's done with LRMs.

Edited by Lyoto Machida, 22 November 2013 - 02:41 PM.

[Whatzituyah]

Lyoto Machida, on 22 November 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Troll or doesn't understand game mechanics...there's no other explanation for this.

Case closed.

Or maybe he can show us how it's done with LRMs.

I can so show you how its done with energy weapons I am a master of energy-fu.

[SerratedBlaze]

The modules that make LRMing easier help tremendously, I make so many more hits purely fro the retention module than i could have ever believed. Stock retention is abysmal in pugs where the spotter could and probably will randomly switch targets/die/give up/run away.

I do think that removing other players radar from benefitting these modules is a good way to make LRMS less about jumping on every target that pops up instantly. But for this to work NARC needs to be made easier to load onto a 'mech. If tag and narc were needed to activate locking-on and retention mods respectively it might help teamwork become marginally more favored. (high hopes) If i have a spare energy slot on a brawler or direct sniper i'd certainly apply a tag just to be a nice guy to teammates. especially since there is a gap in energy weapons (2 hardpoints, 8crits and 8tons? guess its either one good and one pathetic or two small and unused resource) might as well use tag right? but narc isn't so easy to tack on to an opening.

Edit: forgot to mention. outrunning missiles is a great defense. its usually not worth it to target jenners or spiders unless tagging them yourself from mid range.

Edited by SerratedBlaze, 23 November 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Greyboots]

All flim-flam aside:

OIf course "LRM Flooding" is popular. Why wouldnt' it be?

AC's have the run of the game because the have the holy trinity of range, pinpoint damage and sustained fire. The ONLY weakness they have is that they require Line of Sight.

I don't know about anyone else but I almost NEVER run out of AC ammo. I'm only limited by weight on how much ammo I can actually fit on. I die before I run out of AC ammo and it's usually being cored that kills me so carrying an excessive amount of ammo rarely proves to be a drawback. 99% fo the time I go down to excessive group/alpha strikes or sustained AC fire. I'd be dead no matter what anyway so it makes absolutely no difference what so ever if the ammo explodes or not.

In the end; Big flamin' deal. A boatload of ammo is no drawback what so ever.

So. I don't blame people who take LRM boats in the slightest. If I get a bead on them they are going down. Fair is fair that the same applies in return.

Edited by Greyboots, 23 November 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Sandpit]

I'll be glad when December gets here so we can move on to a new FotM

[Sephlock]

Sandpit, on 23 November 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

I'll be glad when December gets here so we can move on to a new FotM

Fully Overnerfed Terrible Missile?

[Sandpit]

Sephlock, on 23 November 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Fully Overnerfed Terrible Missile?

lol That made me chuckle. If most ofthe QQers on the forums had there way that would be every weapon in the game. I may just start a new list to go with my remove list on nerfs and ops. Just to see what kind of contradiction shows up. I'm pretty sure I can show posts that say "nerf LRMs (for example)" and then another that calls for "LRMs to be bumped"

[xMEPHISTOx]

Victor Morson, on 21 November 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Anyone who says LRMs take no skill to use effectively is a full of themselves newbie wanting to take it out on the mean LRM boats for shaking their screen.

LRMs require the most pre-planning and positioning of any weapon in the game. Most guns are "Aim at dude and pull trigger" with the only other factors being range & heat.

I've been over this before in the thread but LRM users have about a dozen factors at any given time.

I agree but only to a point. Different weapon systems require different skill sets, obviously. So to say LRM's takes no skill is false and somewhat ignorant.
But I do feel that it takes less skill(s) to use a LRM boat then a sniper or brawler. For LRMs positioning is key, no real difficulty in aiming as opposed to a sniper who not only needs to position but also take manual aim and shoot in some cases while moving laterally while coming down from a jump.
I do play both btw, so not just making this assessment based on hatred as many may be doing.

*Edited for addition.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 23 November 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Sandpit]

xMEPHISTOx, on 23 November 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

I agree but only to a point. Different weapon systems require different skill sets, obviously. So to say LRM's takes no skill is false and somewhat ignorant.
But I do feel that it takes less skill(s) to use a LRM boat then a sniper or brawler. For LRMs positioning is key, no real difficulty in aiming as opposed to a sniper who not only needs to position but also take manual aim and shoot in some cases while moving laterally while coming down from a jump.
I do play both btw, so not just making this assessment based on hatred as many may be doing.

*Edited for addition.

Oh I have no doubts. It takes skill to be good at any portion of this game. I don't care if it's energy, missiles, ballistics, scouting, sniping, lights, heavies, assaults.
It doesnt' matter what type of mech you're using, if you don't know what you're doing you're going to get chewed up by someone who DOES know what they're doing.

I've shredded an Atlas in a Jenner simply because the pilot didn't know how to counter my face hug-fu. lol

[Greyboots]

xMEPHISTOx, on 23 November 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

To to say LRM's takes no skill is false and somewhat ignorant.

I would prefer the term "misinformed" to ignorant. IT's less confrontational and once upon a time we were all in a position where we didn't really understand how the game fits together.

LRMs can certainly be quite overpowered. Then again so can a huge ball of AC mechs or a swarm of light mechs.

As soon as anything turns up where you don't have the the team that can deal with it, it appears OP real quick.

The BIGGEST problem I see in PUGS is that people think AMS is useless. One AMS is fairly useless to be sure but if EVERYONE had one and you stick to groups? They become much more powerful.

More skilled players understand this one and in these teams (premades especially) you'll see a missle defence based around an ECM to limit the number of targets available to LRMS AND almost every mech will have AMS. This forces the individual AMS systems to concentrate fire giving the targeted player time to move and break the lock and other players to get out of the way of the LRMs. All LRMs currently in flight then become useless unless someone can re-equire the lock quickly enough. this, of course, is then limited to the TAG equipped mechs rather than have every oponent able to reaquire the lock from multiple angles.

If, however, there was a PUG culture of everyone having an AMS (which isn't happening) and more people running TAG (which is on the rise), Missiles wouldn't be such a one-sided affair.

Quote

But I do feel that it takes less skill(s) to use a LRM boat then a sniper or brawler. For LRMs positioning is key, no real difficulty in aiming as opposed to a sniper who not only needs to position but also take manual aim and shoot in some cases while moving laterally while coming down from a jump.

As opposed to an Artemis and TAG equipped LRM boat who also needs to get LoS and ALSO choose between targets likely to be able to break the lock before the slow missiles reach their target. Snipers can basically take pot shots at anything they can see for a limited amount of time, not so much with LRMs. Trying to get a lock on the wrong target can cost you a fair bit of DPS.

So not the same type of skill to be sure but I'd be hesitant to label it as "less skill". Indirect firing? Sure. Far less skill and you also tend to do far less damage which seems quite fair. Using LRMs to their maximum "direct-fire" potential? Not so much. You have to get out in the open like everyone else and they become "direct fire" weapons with slow projectiles that take the high road.

Quote

I do play both btw, so not just making this assessment based on hatred as many may be doing.

Just a note: I'm not calling you "wrong" in any way, just pointing out that alternative people with alternative playstyles can offer different perspectives.

I don't "boat" for indirect fire though I certainly do so when it's sensible. I boat because if I get a bead on someone it can really really hurt. If boating is hurting you a massive amount in gameplay it's quite possibly a stacked team. Alternatively, it's not actually indirect fire at all:- Someone with Artemis and a TAG can probably see you.

If I can see light mechs? With Artemis and TAG I can blow their legs off and the next couple of volleys will kill them (if someone else doesn't beat me to it).. If I can see a Medium mech? I can shred it because they tend to not have enough armour to deal with sustained LRM fire. Heavy Mechs tend to fare the best but Assaults tend to be so large that I'll torso them out if they stand there long enough.

None of which is true of indirect fire. I tend to have minimal effects on lights unless they are TAGGED and even then it's a lot of ammo to do significant damage. Medium mechs have the maneuverability to break the lock and avoid most of the missiles. The spread on other mechs tends to mean I make a lot of stuff yellow and am essentially only making it easier for the direct fire mechs to punch through their armour.

Using indirect fire I simply do less damage, blow off fewer components and get fewer kills. Sure, I might live long enough to actually run out of ammo all the time BUT the sharper assault with LoS helps eliminate more mechs earlier on and even if I die I tend to get more cBills and more XP anyway.

I wonder if people think the same about the 2 ways of "boating" or whether "boating" is only considered boating when it's indirect fire.

Edited by Greyboots, 23 November 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Sandpit]

Greyboots, on 23 November 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

LRMs can certainly be quite overpowered. Then again so can a huge ball of AC mechs or a swarm of light mechs.

Uhm....

I'm trying to figure out how I want to explain my opinion on this

If a weapon is OP, then it's OP in all regards. It's not only OP when it's used en masse. Sure getting rained on by 3-4 LRM boats coordinating together sucks donkey but that doesn't mean the weapon is "OP". That means it sucks to get hit by a coordinated team.

[Commissar Aku]

Cover is op if you aren't hiding behind a building in River ****** Night, or in the tunnel in Crimson Strait, missiles go strait through. Instead of whining about LRM spam why not whine about broken terrain, objects and buildings.

[Lightfoot]

I have taken to rounding out my configs with a few LRMs so I can start hitting stuff before other weapons are in range, however, most of these mechs only support SRM4's so even LRM10's fire in a stream, but it works okay so who cares. They aren't my main weapon on these mechs, just and added element.

So, alot of the flooders you are seeing just don't have enough missile tubes to fire the full salvo.

[Mystere]

I don't know about you folks, but I sometimes like to carry a single LRM5 for recon purposes -- fire in the direction of terrain cover and see how many AMS tracers I get. It sure is very effective in exposing enemy formations under both ECM and AMS cover.

[Victor Morson]

xMEPHISTOx, on 23 November 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

But I do feel that it takes less skill(s) to use a LRM boat then a sniper or brawler. For LRMs positioning is key, no real difficulty in aiming as opposed to a sniper who not only needs to position but also take manual aim and shoot in some cases while moving laterally while coming down from a jump.

If you want to be ineffective, sure. Effective LRM boats need to put their TAG on target, within 750m (leaving a scant 500m of "safe fighting area" before you start getting dangerous close to minimum range), otherwise all the damage is just scattered, aimless trash damage.

The only way LRMs can be remotely viable is if they are Artemis + TAG'ed, and it's why I think those 6 LRM5 A1s are jokes. They almost always get trashed rather one-sidedly by someone running TAG and some 15s.

XPH Aku, on 23 November 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Cover is op if you aren't hiding behind a building in River ****** Night, or in the tunnel in Crimson Strait, missiles go strait through. Instead of whining about LRM spam why not whine about broken terrain, objects and buildings.

Let's also talk about Tourmaline Desert where missiles explode on invisible edges left and right.

[Joseph Mallan]

Greyboots, on 23 November 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

All flim-flam aside:

OIf course "LRM Flooding" is popular. Why wouldnt' it be?

AC's have the run of the game because the have the holy trinity of range, pinpoint damage and sustained fire. The ONLY weakness they have is that they require Line of Sight.

I don't know about anyone else but I almost NEVER run out of AC ammo. I'm only limited by weight on how much ammo I can actually fit on. I die before I run out of AC ammo and it's usually being cored that kills me so carrying an excessive amount of ammo rarely proves to be a drawback. 99% fo the time I go down to excessive group/alpha strikes or sustained AC fire. I'd be dead no matter what anyway so it makes absolutely no difference what so ever if the ammo explodes or not.

In the end; Big flamin' deal. A boatload of ammo is no drawback what so ever.

So. I don't blame people who take LRM boats in the slightest. If I get a bead on them they are going down. Fair is fair that the same applies in return.

I applaud the players taking LRMs. They are shouldering the insults and playing the game how they see fit. When they are working well LRMs can win you more money, and damage, Tons of assists(Still more money), but may not get you a bunch of kills on fresh Mechs. Fire Support is at heart a supporting role that gets a bunch of grief for doing their role the right way!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 November 2013 - 06:34 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

LRMs and skill is a strange beast. I definitely agree that LRMs require skill - it's not the same skill as a sniper requires, but you can stil ldo a lot of things wrong.

Part of the skill seems to be figuring out if that target that just appeared will still be there three minutes (not sure if that's accurate, sure feels like 3 minutes) later when your missiles will finally get to it, or if you will long have lost the target and your missiles are wasted.
Of course, once you use your TAG and all, they kinda become like direct-fire weapons... But then you have to wonder why not just use a direct-fire weapon?

---


Mustrum's "Alternate Way to Implement LRM fire"

Spoiler

When you fire an LRM or SSRM, 5 targeting pulses are generated over 1 second. (10 targeting pulses over 15 seconds for Artemis LRMs). At the end of this duration, the missiles fly off. The pulses are aimed similar to lasers, e.g. are hitscan and based on your reticule with perfect convergence and all that.

The targeting computer selects targeting pulses that "hit" somethnig, where avaialble. It selects 5 pulses, each corrosponding to one group of LRMs in the launcher (1 missile for LRMs, 2 for LRM10, 3 for LRM15 and 4 for LRM20).

The pulses determine the "bone" (SSRMs track "bones" on the target mech right now, this is the same principle) based on where the targeting pulse "hit". This happens even if you have no target selected.

The missiles will still also have a scattering pattern in addition to this, if all missiles in a salvo were flying towards the same target, one would see a spiral-form hit pattern.

TAG and Artemis make this spiral tighter, and generate more pulses than regular LRMs in the same duration.

For normal indirect fire, the missiles will instead spread evenly across 5 semi-random hit locations (semi-random: No hit location can be generated twice, the head is never selected.). This requires you to have the target selected, if you fire your LRMs unselected, your missiles will go to waste. Additionally, missiles flying towards randomly located hit locations have a 33 % chance to miss entirely.

Allied TAG also generates these pulses. That means it matters where on the target your TAG hits when you're acting as spotter.

Narc constantly generates the pulses, the pulses corrospend to wherever the Narc hit. If multiple Narcs are on the same target, the last Narc counts.

When multiple targeting pulses on a target are avaialble, the youngest best 5 signals from the last second are used.
Priority is this:
1. Your own TAG or targeting pulses
2. Narc. (The last Narc attached to the target)
3. Friendly Spotter with TAG. (The closest TAG)
4. Friendly Spotter without TAG.

What does that mean when multiple
A: Someone has your target marked, but fires his TAG in the aim.
B: 3 of your targeting pulses are on the targets right arm, the rest missed.
C: A Narc is on the target, attached to the right torso.
D: Someone else fired 3 pulses with his TAG on the left leg and 2 pulses on the right leg, in that order.
E: Someone had the target marked, or you had the target in sight.

Your own targeting gives you 3 pulses on target. They have priority over everything else, so they will defintiely be taken.
The allied TAG was useless, it didn't generate an actual target location, so it's ignored. The Narc fills up the last 2 then.
So the missiles would try to hit the right arm (3) and right torso (2).
If the Narc wasn't, Tagger "D"s last 2 pulses would be used, hitting the right arm (3) and right leg (2).


So, in effect:
- Aiming and tracking targets becomes important for LRM users and spotters.
- Without any aiming and tracking, you lose a third of your missiles and will spread damage, but you will never miss entirely (if you have the target selected)
- You will never hit perfectly where you aimed at due to innate scattering.


Oh, and ECM could also work nicely in this system - it would simply block all TAG, NARC and indirect-fire pulses.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 25 November 2013 - 07:14 AM.