910 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 November 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

I applaud the players taking LRMs. They are shouldering the insults and playing the game how they see fit. When they are working well LRMs can win you more money, and damage, Tons of assists(Still more money), but may not get you a bunch of kills on fresh Mechs. Fire Support is at heart a supporting role that gets a bunch of grief for doing their role the right way!

Exactly

Too many people worried about what everyone else is running.

Teammate Derp, "That's a horrible design! You should change it and do this, and I would make it more like this"

Me, "Uhm dude, can you quiet down about my horrible design? I'm trying to kill another mech at the moment, please keep the backseat driving to a minimum"

[Zyllos]

This is what I would do with the entire LRM, targeting, and support mechanics in this game:

WARNING!!! VERY LONG!!!

Spoiler

Here are some changes that would really help balance LRMs overall as well as give more meaning to Electronic Warfare and Scouting:

Mech Sensor Strength

• There are active and passive sensor settings.
  
• Mech sensors have a variety of strengths, ranging from 1000m to 400m.
  
  • Strong Strength - 1000m
    
  • Average Strength - 800m
    
  • Below Average Strength - 600m
    
  • Weak Strength - 400m
• Active Sensor Mode-
  
• Active sensors can gain targets out to it's sensor strength range.
  
  • Active sensors can gain targets without LoS, as above, but only against other active sensors.
    
  • Active sensors against passive sensor targets need to be within 75% range of it's sensor strength and have direct LoS.
    
  • Active sensors can NOT detect passive sensor targets without LoS.
• While in active sensor mode, "Warning Missile Lockon" will be provided if LRMs/SSRMs are fired at you.
  
• While in active sensor mode, your SELECTED target is shared to all other teammates.
  
• While in active sensor mode, you can select any sensor target for information display (armor, weapons, mech type, ect).
  
• Passive Sensor Mode-
  
• Passive sensors reduce sensor range to 200m, regardless of sensor strength, but work just like active sensors, except for the following effects:
  
  • While sensors are passive, sensor sharing is turned off. This only effects sharing targets, but passive sensor mechs can be shared targets.
    
  • Lock on can NOT be achieved at all.
    
  • You can not select targets for information display while in passive sensor mode except for targets within 200m.
• Shutdown mechs can not be detected by regular sensors (active or otherwise).
  
• This can be swapped every 5.0s.

​Information Display Level

• There are 5 (I, II, III, IV, and V) levels of display available when you have a selected target for information display.
  
• If a selected target is outside 50% sensor strength, then an amount of time is needed to gather target information.
  
• If a selected target is within 50% sensor strength, then Level III is automatically achieved when selected.
  
• Level I
  
  • Achieved immediately when a target is selected.
    
    • Displays target indicator (Alpha (A), Beta ( , ect).
• Level II
  
  • Achieved after maintaining selection for 0.5s.
    
    • Displays mech chassis.
• Level III
  
  • Achieved after maintaining selection for 1.0s.
    
    • Displays mech loadout and armor status. This does not display any weapons destroyed, active heatsinks, ect.
• Level IV
  
  • Achieved after maintaining selection for 2.0s.
    
    • Displays mech active loadout status. This will display any weapons destroyed, out of ammo, and # of active heatsinks.
• Level V
  
  • Achieved after maintaining selection for 3.0s.
    
    • Displays amount of ammo left, ammo location, active actuators, current speed/heading relative to your speed/position, and current heat percentage.
• Level IV and V can only be achieved if a BAP is equipped.
  
• Level I information can be gained by either selecting an enemy mech yourself or shared to you by being selected by a friendly mech.

LRM Targeting and Lockon

• Lockons continue to work as they do now, with the same lockon speed.
  
  • Once a lock is achieved, only the sensor target is needed to be maintained in order to keep a lock.
    
    • This means once a lock is achieved, you no longer need to keep your crosshair on the target to maintain that lock.
      
    • The target DOES need to continue to be selected.
  • A lock is lost if the sensor target is lost or not selected for any reason.
    
    • A lock can be lost if the sensor target moves out of the forward arc of the locking mech, regardless if the sensor target was never lost.
• LRMs target specific locations (like SSRMs) in swarms (5 LRMs).
  
  • LRM/20 would fire 4 swarms, each targeting a unique location (4 locations).
    
    • The percentage chance of a specific location has the same chances as SSRMs.
  • Each swarm is a single unique target for AMS to lockon to and destroy.
• The lock is NOT needed to be maintained for a already fired LRMs to reach it's target.
  
  • If LRMs is awaiting to be fired that had a previous lock, it will continue to fire at that previous last lock. New LRM weapon firings need to have a lock or will fire were the crosshair is aimed.
    
  • LRMs that have already fired with a lock will lose tracking if the sensor target is lost and under ECM cover.
• Target decay will last for 2.0s.

LRM Firing Patterns

• LRMs ripple fire in swarms.
  
  • Each swarm will fire in 0.25s as a launcher is fired.
    
  • Each launcher takes 0.5s to recover before firing.
    
    • Example 1) LRM/20 fired out of a 20 tube launcher will fire the entire 20 LRMs in 0.75s.
      
    • Example 2) 2x LRM/10 fired out of a 10 tube launcher will fire the initial 2 swarms in 0.25s, wait 0.5s, then fire 2 more swarms in 0.25s, taking a total time of 1.0s to release the full 20 LRMs.
      
    • Example 3) 1x LRM/10 and 2x LRM/5 fired out of a 15 tube launcher will fire 3 swarms in 0.5s
  • As an LRM weapon is fired, swarms are placed on a queue, ready to be fired by a launcher in the location the weapon is located.
• The cone of LRMs is called the "tracking strength".
  
  • The default cone will be 5m, regardless of the mech it's targeting.
    
  • The cone will center on the "bone" that was randomly chosen.
• LRM speeds will be slightly increased to 150m/s.
  
• Direct Fire Mode-
  
• LRMs travel in very low arcs toward the target with direct LoS.
  
  • This is the default firing pattern of LRMs.
    
  • This flight pattern is fairly straight, so the overall travel time is reduced in reaching the target but will most likely not clear cover.
• Indirect Fire Mode-
  
• If a target is hit by TAG, NARC, or shared with C3 coverage, then LRMs fired without LoS will do indirect fire.
  
• Indirect fire travel in high arcs toward the target.
  
  • Basically the same flight paths that LRMs take now.

Beagle Active Probe (BAP)

• BAP will increase sensor strength by 20%.
  
• Provide target information Levels IV and V.
  
• Will display if a mech has ECM equipped when a sensor target is received/shared to others.
  
• Will allow up to 100% sensor strength for detecting passive sensors with direct LoS and 200m for detecting passive sensors without LoS.
  
  • Can detect shutdown mechs within 50% sensor strength with LoS and 200m without LoS.
• BAP will display "Warning: Locked On" if an enemy has locked on to you.
  
• ECM will counter all bonuses of BAP except for displaying if a mech has ECM equipped.
  
  • "Warning: Locked On" will only be countered by the mech equipped with ECM, not other mechs under ECM cover.

Target Acquision Gear (TAG)

• TAG will share a target (as if it was selected) to all mechs.
  
• A target shared with TAG will allow LRMs to fire in Indirect Fire mode.
  
• TAG will increase tracking strength of LRMs by 50% (to 2.5m).
  
• Lockon speed is reduced.
  
• TAG will stack with NARC.

NARC Beacon

• NARC will share a target (as if it was selected) to all mechs.
  
• A target shared with NARC will allow LRMs to fire in Indirect Fire mode.
  
• NARC will attach to a location hit on the mech and last for 20s.
  
  • Each location the NARC is not attached to will be reduced the chance to target by 50% and added to the location the NARC landed on.
    
  • If the location the NARC is attached to is destroyed, the NARC will prematurely end.
• Lockon speed is reduced.
  
• ECM will wholly counter NARC.
  
• NARC will stack with TAG and Artemis IV.

Artemis IV Fire Control System (Artemis IV FCS)

• Artemis IV will reduce lockon speed.
  
• Artemis IV will reduce increase tracking strength of LRMs by 50%.
  
• Artemis IV will increase tracking strength of LRMs by 80% (to 1.0m).
  
• Artemis IV only works with direct LoS.
  
• ECM will wholly counter Artemis IV.
  
• Artemis IV will stack with NARC.

C3 Network

• There are two C3 modules available:
  
  • C3 Master
    
  • C3 Slave
• Any mech equipped with C3 will share all targets, not just the one selected, to all other C3 equipped mechs.
  
  • All C3 mechs will automatically gain Level III target information. If one mech with BAP equipped also utilizes C3, then all of it's target information for a selected target (Level IV and V) will also be shared, as long as the BAP equipped mech is continuing to select it's target with Level IV and V.
• C3 target shared to another C3 equipped mech will provide LRMs Indirect Fire mode to that mech.
  
• C3 will reduce lockon speed.
  
• If multiple C3 Masters are equipped, then those C3 Masters will become backup Masters.
  
  • When all C3 Masters have been destroyed, then all C3 Slaves will cease to function.
• All C3 shared information ignores the active/passive sensor modes.
  
• C3 Network provides no bonus to non-C3 Network equipped mechs.

Guardian Electronic Counter Measures (GECM)

• GECM has two modes, Disrupt and Counter.
  
• Regardless of mode, GECM will counter NARC, Artemis IV, C3, and BAP.
  
  • An active NARC will cease to provide any benefit when under GECM cover.
    
  • Artemis IV will cease to provide any benefit when under GECM cover.
    
    • This includes both the Artemis IV user and target of Artemis IV.
  • C3 will cease to provide any benefit when under GECM cover.
    
    • This includes both the C3 user and target of C3.
  • BAP will cease to provide any benefit when under GECM cover except for the following:
    
    • BAP will display "ECM" next to a sensor target to display at this mech has ECM equipped.
• Regardless of mode, the mech equipped with GECM receive the following benefits:
  
  • Reduce sensor strength of mechs attempting to detect it by 50% while running active sensor mode.
    
  • Unable to be detected by active sensors when outside of LoS.
    
  • Unable to be detected at all when running passive sensor mode except at 200m.
    
    • This only stops the mech from being detected as a sensor target, it does not keep mechs from selecting it as a target, and gaining a lock on it, when detected.
• ECM cover is 180m range.
  
• ECM can swap modes every 5.0s.
  
• Disrupt Mode-
  
• Disrupt mode is used to protect all friendly mechs within ECM cover from enemy mechs attempting to detect it.
  
  • ​Reduce sensor strength of mechs attempting to detect it by 25% while running active sensor mode.
    
  • Reduce sensor strength of mechs attempting to detect it by 50% while running active sensor mode and out of direct LoS.
    
  • Undetectable when running passive sensors except at 200m.
    
  • Target decay is reduced by 75% (to 0.5s).
• Counter Mode-
  
• Counter mode is used to counter enemy mechs within ECM cover from targeting enemy mechs and also keep enemy ECM from providing a benefit.
  
  • All enemy mechs within ECM cover lose all shared targets, can not share targets, and can only detect it's own targets at 50% sensor strength, still following the rules for active/passive sensors.
    
  • All enemy mechs within ECM cover and has an ECM equipped ceases to function on a 1:1 ratio.

Overall, the above is suppose to implement EW, LRMs, and scouting as being very important into the overall system without any one system overpowering another.


The active/passive sensor modes, just by themselves is a way for mechs to get hide from active sensors while outside of LoS. The penalty paid for this is that you can not gain a lock on a target and gain target information, you can not share your targets to other mechs (and you would be gaining very little of your own targets anyways), and are reliant upon scouts to share targets to you to be aware of where enemies are at.

Level I target information, used for calling out targets, can be given to players by being selected by one of your teammates. When someone has a target selected, not only is there a triangle displayed above the target, the called target letter is displayed. This will let forward scouts find targets to fire at and let bigger mechs run passive sensors to protect themselves be shared to where the target is location, and it's call target letter. But, running passive sensors without C3 will make it were those passive sensor mechs can't select the target themselves (unless under 200m) to see any additional information on where to aim at, ect.

This also enforces the idea that if you want to use LRMs, you need to run active sensor mode. When running in this mode, either yourself with direct LoS or a forward scout selecting a target for sharing with you in direct LoS, can fire LRMs at the target once a lock is achieved. And locks will still allow players to fire other weapons without interfering with aiming by not having to keep the crosshair on target to maintain locks. Also, once missiles are in the air and a lock is lost, those missiles will still keep traveling to their target so if you do get off some missiles with just a short amount of lock time, they will still travel to the target.

To gain Indirect Fire mode LRMs, someone needs to mark the target with some type of EW tool, be it TAG, NARC, or C3. Indirect Fire mode is always used when available, even if in direct LoS (this is because the target most likely will run for cover, thus Indirect Fire mode could clear the cover while Direct Fire mode will almost always not clear cover).

To balance this out, LRMs will now spread their damage out much more, regardless of launcher size, by randomly selecting a "bone" of the target, just like SSRMs. Unlike SSRMs, these are selected in groups of 5 LRMs, called swarms. And sense swarms are ripple fired out, salvos are much more spread out so AMS will be much stronger. To get around this, use larger LRM weapons with larger launchers to quickly fir e swarms out, thus reducing the exposure time to AMS.

GECM will no longer just stop targeting a mech all the way up to 250m (or whatever it is now). Instead, GECM is either used by the scout to get in close for itself by staying out of LoS (and becoming very hard to target until it gets close) then turn on Counter mode to keep LRM launchers from firing (but SSRM launchers can still put the hurt on mechs because all mechs can be targeted at 200m, regardless) -OR- used to hide itself and other mechs around it from being easily targeted (by reducing sensor range) while running Disrupt mode.

The differences in interaction between active/passive sensors and GECM produce some interesting effects. GECM can really hide a group of mechs by running GECM in Disrupt mode and everyone going to passive sensor mode. This greatly reduces the range active sensors can target them but the group will lose all ability to select targets and get target locks without a forward scout to share targets.

GECM can also be used to just reduce the effective range of LRMs by 25% by everyone running active sensor mode and running Disrupt mode. This allows players to just get a little bit closer without LRM retaliation, but only by ~25% (250m) so it doesn't out right stop LRM users.

Or some combination inbetween, like active sensor mode Raven with Disrupt ECM while mechs within 180m run passive sensor mode. This will allow the Raven to provide shared targets for the passive guys to fire at but the Raven will show up as a target long before other targets.

Either way, I have typed up enough and I doubt any of this will happen.

[StompingOnTanks]

LRMs are fine the way they are. They're designed as suppression and support weapons, to keep the enemy's heads down and their mechs pinned behind cover, and that's exactly what they do: You walk into the open, you get a facefull of missiles. Snipers, scouts, AMS and ECM are how you counter that, and they're pretty effective at it.

I have a Trebbie that mounts 2 LRM 15s and four tons of ammo, and the most damage I've ever gotten out of it in a match was 300 something, with one kill, after using all of my LRM ammo. Compared to my Cent and Awesome that max out at 400 and 600 damage per match each, and you start to see how weak LRMs actually are... Or maybe I'm just terrible at using LRMs.

Either way, I won't consider LRMs overpowered until I see an LRM boat get 5+ kills in one match, without kill stealing.

Edit: Just got 5 kills in a match with said Trebbie. They all had red CTs and were fighting my allies when I found them though, so my point still stands.

Edited by StompingOnTanks, 25 November 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[CravenMadness]

Have had five kills, six assists and nine-hundred and ninety-five damage in my A1 lrm5 x6 build. ... 'Course it -was- on alpine peaks. I love when zero mechs out of twelve have ams. Makes my job so much easier. Folks just got to stuff that extra medium laser or extra heat sink instead of taking a piece of equipment that pretty much neuters or halves the damage of an entire weapon system.

[Zyllos]

StompingOnTanks, on 25 November 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

LRMs are fine the way they are. They're designed as suppression and support weapons, to keep the enemy's heads down and their mechs pinned behind cover, and that's exactly what they do: You walk into the open, you get a facefull of missiles. Snipers, scouts, AMS and ECM are how you counter that, and they're pretty effective at it.

I have a Trebbie that mounts 2 LRM 15s and four tons of ammo, and the most damage I've ever gotten out of it in a match was 300 something, with one kill, after using all of my LRM ammo. Compared to my Cent and Awesome that max out at 400 and 600 damage per match each, and you start to see how weak LRMs actually are... Or maybe I'm just terrible at using LRMs.

Either way, I won't consider LRMs overpowered until I see an LRM boat get 5+ kills in one match, without kill stealing.

Edit: Just got 5 kills in a match with said Trebbie. They all had red CTs and were fighting my allies when I found them though, so my point still stands.

I agree. I think LRMs are not overpowered. I also do not think they are underpowered.

What I think is they are just plain implemented incorrectly, along with the supporting equipment.

They already have a good system implemented for LRMs, in the spreading SSRM damage. Honestly, SSRMs need to spread in groups of 2 SSRMs each, so that a specific group receives distributed, concentrated damage like how it works in the TT. LRMs also needs to do the same in swarms of 5 LRMs.

The reason why this needs to happen is that MWO is utilizing the TT armor system. When weapon systems act in a different manner than the expected distributed system that the TT armor system expects, you get what you see now, ballistics being too good when compared with other systems.

[Sandpit]

Zyllos, on 25 November 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

I agree. I think LRMs are not overpowered. I also do not think they are underpowered.

What I think is they are just plain implemented incorrectly, along with the supporting equipment.

They already have a good system implemented for LRMs, in the spreading SSRM damage. Honestly, SSRMs need to spread in groups of 2 SSRMs each, so that a specific group receives distributed, concentrated damage like how it works in the TT. LRMs also needs to do the same in swarms of 5 LRMs.

The reason why this needs to happen is that MWO is utilizing the TT armor system. When weapon systems act in a different manner than the expected distributed system that the TT armor system expects, you get what you see now, ballistics being too good when compared with other systems.

I think they should group the LRMs like TT. Groups of 5, each group hits a specific location.

[SmithMPBT]

Leave LRMs alone. ECM is so overused in 12 mans now it makes LRM builds nearly useless.

[Hellen Wheels]

The thing about LRMs is, that if you have two or three other mechs on your side packing a few racks, the sound effects are really cool when they're all firing in sync.

Can get some good fireworks going, too.

I luvs me some rockets red glare.

[Zyllos]

Sandpit, on 25 November 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

I think they should group the LRMs like TT. Groups of 5, each group hits a specific location.

Exactly. It fixes so many issues with players utilizing smaller LRM launchers because of their "CT homing" capabilities.

There should be no differences in LRM launcher sizes other than the ratio of weight, heat, critical slots, DPS, and ability to bypass AMS.

Tracking capabilities and target hit locations should be unchanged. Each "swarm" of 5 LRMs should have the same expected capabilities between all launcher sizes.

***EDIT: I would also like to add that there needs to be a toggle to swap between direct and indirect fire for LRMs. The maximum range of direct fire LRMs should be reduced to 660m, an increase in velocity, and MUCH lower firing arc to the aimed location.***

Edited by Zyllos, 25 November 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Sandpit, on 25 November 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

I think they should group the LRMs like TT. Groups of 5, each group hits a specific location.

If they did this they'd need a significant speed buff, and a slight damage buff. The damage because damage aimed at the CT is supierior to damage spread all over. (similar to how they buffed SSRM damage after it doesn't go solely for the core, though to a lesser degree - maybe to 1.4ish)

It would need the speed buff because currently, when you aim LRMs at a mech who is moving, you often hit them low or high - depending upon the direction they're moving. LRMs aimed at arms or legs would miss entirely far more often at the current speed.

Edit: I agree though that the change to LRM targeting should be done. I just don't want to have a month of LRMs being horrible before these changes are made - so I reccomend that they happen at the same time.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 25 November 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[PropagandaWar]

Blacke, on 19 November 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Plenty of people get killed trying to spot for LRMs. Tag is very important, if I have a tag spotter it is the difference between a 40 point game ad a 800 point game.

That's why i bring my own TAG and some lasers followed up by LOS. 2 lrm 15's tend to trump the little wussa pults that are all lrm 5's. I also brawl with my mech if I have to, but then again thats why the Green Meanies average damage is 325. While its nice that I can fire over a hill I see the clown clouds missing more than they are hitting against any player that actually knows a little about cover.

[Sandpit]

I don't think grouping them would require a buff of any kind. LRM 20, RNG determines how many actually hit the target. then group those hitting into groups of 5. RNG determines the hit location of each group. AMS then works as usual.

[Mystere]

Hellen Wheels, on 25 November 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

The thing about LRMs is, that if you have two or three other mechs on your side packing a few racks, the sound effects are really cool when they're all firing in sync.

Can get some good fireworks going, too.

I luvs me some rockets red glare.

Mass firing Katyusha rockets is both beautiful and terrifying, especially if you realize they're heading towards you.

[Lyoto Machida]

Zyllos, on 25 November 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

This is what I would do with the entire LRM, targeting, and support mechanics in this game:

WARNING!!! VERY LONG!!!

Spoiler

Here are some changes that would really help balance LRMs overall as well as give more meaning to Electronic Warfare and Scouting:

Mech Sensor Strength

• There are active and passive sensor settings.
  
• Mech sensors have a variety of strengths, ranging from 1000m to 400m.
  
  • Strong Strength - 1000m
    
  • Average Strength - 800m
    
  • Below Average Strength - 600m
    
  • Weak Strength - 400m
• Active Sensor Mode-
  
• Active sensors can gain targets out to it's sensor strength range.
  
  • Active sensors can gain targets without LoS, as above, but only against other active sensors.
    
  • Active sensors against passive sensor targets need to be within 75% range of it's sensor strength and have direct LoS.
    
  • Active sensors can NOT detect passive sensor targets without LoS.
• While in active sensor mode, "Warning Missile Lockon" will be provided if LRMs/SSRMs are fired at you.
  
• While in active sensor mode, your SELECTED target is shared to all other teammates.
  
• While in active sensor mode, you can select any sensor target for information display (armor, weapons, mech type, ect).
  
• Passive Sensor Mode-
  
• Passive sensors reduce sensor range to 200m, regardless of sensor strength, but work just like active sensors, except for the following effects:
  
  • While sensors are passive, sensor sharing is turned off. This only effects sharing targets, but passive sensor mechs can be shared targets.
    
  • Lock on can NOT be achieved at all.
    
  • You can not select targets for information display while in passive sensor mode except for targets within 200m.
• Shutdown mechs can not be detected by regular sensors (active or otherwise).
  
• This can be swapped every 5.0s.

​Information Display Level

• There are 5 (I, II, III, IV, and V) levels of display available when you have a selected target for information display.
  
• If a selected target is outside 50% sensor strength, then an amount of time is needed to gather target information.
  
• If a selected target is within 50% sensor strength, then Level III is automatically achieved when selected.
  
• Level I
  
  • Achieved immediately when a target is selected.
    
    • Displays target indicator (Alpha (A), Beta ( , ect).
• Level II
  
  • Achieved after maintaining selection for 0.5s.
    
    • Displays mech chassis.
• Level III
  
  • Achieved after maintaining selection for 1.0s.
    
    • Displays mech loadout and armor status. This does not display any weapons destroyed, active heatsinks, ect.
• Level IV
  
  • Achieved after maintaining selection for 2.0s.
    
    • Displays mech active loadout status. This will display any weapons destroyed, out of ammo, and # of active heatsinks.
• Level V
  
  • Achieved after maintaining selection for 3.0s.
    
    • Displays amount of ammo left, ammo location, active actuators, current speed/heading relative to your speed/position, and current heat percentage.
• Level IV and V can only be achieved if a BAP is equipped.
  
• Level I information can be gained by either selecting an enemy mech yourself or shared to you by being selected by a friendly mech.

LRM Targeting and Lockon

• Lockons continue to work as they do now, with the same lockon speed.
  
  • Once a lock is achieved, only the sensor target is needed to be maintained in order to keep a lock.
    
    • This means once a lock is achieved, you no longer need to keep your crosshair on the target to maintain that lock.
      
    • The target DOES need to continue to be selected.
  • A lock is lost if the sensor target is lost or not selected for any reason.
    
    • A lock can be lost if the sensor target moves out of the forward arc of the locking mech, regardless if the sensor target was never lost.
• LRMs target specific locations (like SSRMs) in swarms (5 LRMs).
  
  • LRM/20 would fire 4 swarms, each targeting a unique location (4 locations).
    
    • The percentage chance of a specific location has the same chances as SSRMs.
  • Each swarm is a single unique target for AMS to lockon to and destroy.
• The lock is NOT needed to be maintained for a already fired LRMs to reach it's target.
  
  • If LRMs is awaiting to be fired that had a previous lock, it will continue to fire at that previous last lock. New LRM weapon firings need to have a lock or will fire were the crosshair is aimed.
    
  • LRMs that have already fired with a lock will lose tracking if the sensor target is lost and under ECM cover.
• Target decay will last for 2.0s.

LRM Firing Patterns

• LRMs ripple fire in swarms.
  
  • Each swarm will fire in 0.25s as a launcher is fired.
    
  • Each launcher takes 0.5s to recover before firing.
    
    • Example 1) LRM/20 fired out of a 20 tube launcher will fire the entire 20 LRMs in 0.75s.
      
    • Example 2) 2x LRM/10 fired out of a 10 tube launcher will fire the initial 2 swarms in 0.25s, wait 0.5s, then fire 2 more swarms in 0.25s, taking a total time of 1.0s to release the full 20 LRMs.
      
    • Example 3) 1x LRM/10 and 2x LRM/5 fired out of a 15 tube launcher will fire 3 swarms in 0.5s
  • As an LRM weapon is fired, swarms are placed on a queue, ready to be fired by a launcher in the location the weapon is located.
• The cone of LRMs is called the "tracking strength".
  
  • The default cone will be 5m, regardless of the mech it's targeting.
    
  • The cone will center on the "bone" that was randomly chosen.
• LRM speeds will be slightly increased to 150m/s.
  
• Direct Fire Mode-
  
• LRMs travel in very low arcs toward the target with direct LoS.
  
  • This is the default firing pattern of LRMs.
    
  • This flight pattern is fairly straight, so the overall travel time is reduced in reaching the target but will most likely not clear cover.
• Indirect Fire Mode-
  
• If a target is hit by TAG, NARC, or shared with C3 coverage, then LRMs fired without LoS will do indirect fire.
  
• Indirect fire travel in high arcs toward the target.
  
  • Basically the same flight paths that LRMs take now.

Beagle Active Probe (BAP)

• BAP will increase sensor strength by 20%.
  
• Provide target information Levels IV and V.
  
• Will display if a mech has ECM equipped when a sensor target is received/shared to others.
  
• Will allow up to 100% sensor strength for detecting passive sensors with direct LoS and 200m for detecting passive sensors without LoS.
  
  • Can detect shutdown mechs within 50% sensor strength with LoS and 200m without LoS.
• BAP will display "Warning: Locked On" if an enemy has locked on to you.
  
• ECM will counter all bonuses of BAP except for displaying if a mech has ECM equipped.
  
  • "Warning: Locked On" will only be countered by the mech equipped with ECM, not other mechs under ECM cover.

Target Acquision Gear (TAG)

• TAG will share a target (as if it was selected) to all mechs.
  
• A target shared with TAG will allow LRMs to fire in Indirect Fire mode.
  
• TAG will increase tracking strength of LRMs by 50% (to 2.5m).
  
• Lockon speed is reduced.
  
• TAG will stack with NARC.

NARC Beacon

• NARC will share a target (as if it was selected) to all mechs.
  
• A target shared with NARC will allow LRMs to fire in Indirect Fire mode.
  
• NARC will attach to a location hit on the mech and last for 20s.
  
  • Each location the NARC is not attached to will be reduced the chance to target by 50% and added to the location the NARC landed on.
    
  • If the location the NARC is attached to is destroyed, the NARC will prematurely end.
• Lockon speed is reduced.
  
• ECM will wholly counter NARC.
  
• NARC will stack with TAG and Artemis IV.

Artemis IV Fire Control System (Artemis IV FCS)

• Artemis IV will reduce lockon speed.
  
• Artemis IV will reduce increase tracking strength of LRMs by 50%.
  
• Artemis IV will increase tracking strength of LRMs by 80% (to 1.0m).
  
• Artemis IV only works with direct LoS.
  
• ECM will wholly counter Artemis IV.
  
• Artemis IV will stack with NARC.

C3 Network

• There are two C3 modules available:
  
  • C3 Master
    
  • C3 Slave
• Any mech equipped with C3 will share all targets, not just the one selected, to all other C3 equipped mechs.
  
  • All C3 mechs will automatically gain Level III target information. If one mech with BAP equipped also utilizes C3, then all of it's target information for a selected target (Level IV and V) will also be shared, as long as the BAP equipped mech is continuing to select it's target with Level IV and V.
• C3 target shared to another C3 equipped mech will provide LRMs Indirect Fire mode to that mech.
  
• C3 will reduce lockon speed.
  
• If multiple C3 Masters are equipped, then those C3 Masters will become backup Masters.
  
  • When all C3 Masters have been destroyed, then all C3 Slaves will cease to function.
• All C3 shared information ignores the active/passive sensor modes.
  
• C3 Network provides no bonus to non-C3 Network equipped mechs.

Guardian Electronic Counter Measures (GECM)

• GECM has two modes, Disrupt and Counter.
  
• Regardless of mode, GECM will counter NARC, Artemis IV, C3, and BAP.
  
  • An active NARC will cease to provide any benefit when under GECM cover.
    
  • Artemis IV will cease to provide any benefit when under GECM cover.
    
    • This includes both the Artemis IV user and target of Artemis IV.
  • C3 will cease to provide any benefit when under GECM cover.
    
    • This includes both the C3 user and target of C3.
  • BAP will cease to provide any benefit when under GECM cover except for the following:
    
    • BAP will display "ECM" next to a sensor target to display at this mech has ECM equipped.
• Regardless of mode, the mech equipped with GECM receive the following benefits:
  
  • Reduce sensor strength of mechs attempting to detect it by 50% while running active sensor mode.
    
  • Unable to be detected by active sensors when outside of LoS.
    
  • Unable to be detected at all when running passive sensor mode except at 200m.
    
    • This only stops the mech from being detected as a sensor target, it does not keep mechs from selecting it as a target, and gaining a lock on it, when detected.
• ECM cover is 180m range.
  
• ECM can swap modes every 5.0s.
  
• Disrupt Mode-
  
• Disrupt mode is used to protect all friendly mechs within ECM cover from enemy mechs attempting to detect it.
  
  • ​Reduce sensor strength of mechs attempting to detect it by 25% while running active sensor mode.
    
  • Reduce sensor strength of mechs attempting to detect it by 50% while running active sensor mode and out of direct LoS.
    
  • Undetectable when running passive sensors except at 200m.
    
  • Target decay is reduced by 75% (to 0.5s).
• Counter Mode-
  
• Counter mode is used to counter enemy mechs within ECM cover from targeting enemy mechs and also keep enemy ECM from providing a benefit.
  
  • All enemy mechs within ECM cover lose all shared targets, can not share targets, and can only detect it's own targets at 50% sensor strength, still following the rules for active/passive sensors.
    
  • All enemy mechs within ECM cover and has an ECM equipped ceases to function on a 1:1 ratio.

Overall, the above is suppose to implement EW, LRMs, and scouting as being very important into the overall system without any one system overpowering another.



The active/passive sensor modes, just by themselves is a way for mechs to get hide from active sensors while outside of LoS. The penalty paid for this is that you can not gain a lock on a target and gain target information, you can not share your targets to other mechs (and you would be gaining very little of your own targets anyways), and are reliant upon scouts to share targets to you to be aware of where enemies are at.

Level I target information, used for calling out targets, can be given to players by being selected by one of your teammates. When someone has a target selected, not only is there a triangle displayed above the target, the called target letter is displayed. This will let forward scouts find targets to fire at and let bigger mechs run passive sensors to protect themselves be shared to where the target is location, and it's call target letter. But, running passive sensors without C3 will make it were those passive sensor mechs can't select the target themselves (unless under 200m) to see any additional information on where to aim at, ect.

This also enforces the idea that if you want to use LRMs, you need to run active sensor mode. When running in this mode, either yourself with direct LoS or a forward scout selecting a target for sharing with you in direct LoS, can fire LRMs at the target once a lock is achieved. And locks will still allow players to fire other weapons without interfering with aiming by not having to keep the crosshair on target to maintain locks. Also, once missiles are in the air and a lock is lost, those missiles will still keep traveling to their target so if you do get off some missiles with just a short amount of lock time, they will still travel to the target.

To gain Indirect Fire mode LRMs, someone needs to mark the target with some type of EW tool, be it TAG, NARC, or C3. Indirect Fire mode is always used when available, even if in direct LoS (this is because the target most likely will run for cover, thus Indirect Fire mode could clear the cover while Direct Fire mode will almost always not clear cover).

To balance this out, LRMs will now spread their damage out much more, regardless of launcher size, by randomly selecting a "bone" of the target, just like SSRMs. Unlike SSRMs, these are selected in groups of 5 LRMs, called swarms. And sense swarms are ripple fired out, salvos are much more spread out so AMS will be much stronger. To get around this, use larger LRM weapons with larger launchers to quickly fir e swarms out, thus reducing the exposure time to AMS.

GECM will no longer just stop targeting a mech all the way up to 250m (or whatever it is now). Instead, GECM is either used by the scout to get in close for itself by staying out of LoS (and becoming very hard to target until it gets close) then turn on Counter mode to keep LRM launchers from firing (but SSRM launchers can still put the hurt on mechs because all mechs can be targeted at 200m, regardless) -OR- used to hide itself and other mechs around it from being easily targeted (by reducing sensor range) while running Disrupt mode.

The differences in interaction between active/passive sensors and GECM produce some interesting effects. GECM can really hide a group of mechs by running GECM in Disrupt mode and everyone going to passive sensor mode. This greatly reduces the range active sensors can target them but the group will lose all ability to select targets and get target locks without a forward scout to share targets.

GECM can also be used to just reduce the effective range of LRMs by 25% by everyone running active sensor mode and running Disrupt mode. This allows players to just get a little bit closer without LRM retaliation, but only by ~25% (250m) so it doesn't out right stop LRM users.

Or some combination inbetween, like active sensor mode Raven with Disrupt ECM while mechs within 180m run passive sensor mode. This will allow the Raven to provide shared targets for the passive guys to fire at but the Raven will show up as a target long before other targets.

Either way, I have typed up enough and I doubt any of this will happen.

Great post...2 things:

1) No one read the spoiler most likely.
2) I have doubts on PGI implementing 3 of those ideas, much less all of them.

[Greyboots]

Zyllos, on 25 November 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

***EDIT: I would also like to add that there needs to be a toggle to swap between direct and indirect fire for LRMs. The maximum range of direct fire LRMs should be reduced to 660m, an increase in velocity, and MUCH lower firing arc to the aimed location.***

What, exactly, would this accomplish? And I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really want to know what people expect this to do.

There is actually no difference between direct fire and indirect fire except indirect fire uses someone else's target. Artemis is what makes the difference and all it cares about is whether or not you have LOS to your target whether that be a locked target and the missiles home in or unlocked and they just hit where the crosshairs are.

Is this really just a way to make LRMs more powerful by reducing the penalties for shooting at ECM shielded targets and mechs that "pop out" to attack that you can't get a lock on?

Or am I missing something?

Edited by Greyboots, 25 November 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Kutfroat, on 21 November 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

lrms = the way of the unskilled poossies. even worse than artillery in wot ever was.

I disagree with this slightly. LRMs = the way of people grinding a missile hard point heavy mech. They're cheap, semi-effective if not alarming, and light weight. They're not pretty but they get the job done.

[Cimarb]

Zyllos, on 25 November 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

I agree. I think LRMs are not overpowered. I also do not think they are underpowered.

What I think is they are just plain implemented incorrectly, along with the supporting equipment.

They already have a good system implemented for LRMs, in the spreading SSRM damage. Honestly, SSRMs need to spread in groups of 2 SSRMs each, so that a specific group receives distributed, concentrated damage like how it works in the TT. LRMs also needs to do the same in swarms of 5 LRMs.

The reason why this needs to happen is that MWO is utilizing the TT armor system. When weapon systems act in a different manner than the expected distributed system that the TT armor system expects, you get what you see now, ballistics being too good when compared with other systems.

No. Do you want ballistics and energy weapons to randomly hit like in TT also? LRMs damage the way they should. Clustering them into fives was just to make things simpler in TT so you didn't have to roll once for each missile (four rolls instead of twenty? Yes please). How about missiles hitting your legs even though they all visually hit your torsos? (Or vice versa) Please stop with the TT implementations that make no sense in a real time shooter.

Honestly, the opposite needs to happen. Instead of clustering the LRM damage, the direct fire weapons are the ones that need adjusted. ACs should fire bursts of rounds, like a large bore MG (which they are) and PPCs should do a small radius cone that disburses the damage amongst the hitboxes impacted. This would dramatically balance out the weapon systems and decrease the pinpoint issue immensely.

[Sandpit]

Cimarb, on 25 November 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

No. Do you want ballistics and energy weapons to randomly hit like in TT also? LRMs damage the way they should. Clustering them into fives was just to make things simpler in TT so you didn't have to roll once for each missile (four rolls instead of twenty? Yes please). How about missiles hitting your legs even though they all visually hit your torsos? (Or vice versa) Please stop with the TT implementations that make no sense in a real time shooter.

Honestly, the opposite needs to happen. Instead of clustering the LRM damage, the direct fire weapons are the ones that need adjusted. ACs should fire bursts of rounds, like a large bore MG (which they are) and PPCs should do a small radius cone that disburses the damage amongst the hitboxes impacted. This would dramatically balance out the weapon systems and decrease the pinpoint issue immensely.

I feel the weapons are pretty well balanced as is. No need to nerf ballistics

[Cimarb]

Greyboots, on 25 November 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

What, exactly, would this accomplish? And I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really want to know what people expect this to do.

There is actually no difference between direct fire and indirect fire except indirect fire uses someone else's target. Artemis is what makes the difference and all it cares about is whether or not you have LOS to your target whether that be a locked target and the missiles home in or unlocked and they just hit where the crosshairs are.

Is this really just a way to make LRMs more powerful by reducing the penalties for shooting at ECM shielded targets and mechs that "pop out" to attack that you can't get a lock on?

Or am I missing something?

I think they might mean a flight path/speed difference. There is already a flight path difference under a certain range, but I don't think a lot of these people that complain are aware of that. It wouldn't make much sense for the flight speed to be quicker, aside from the obvious advantage of a more direct flight path (less distance = less time to impact), but maybe they want more control over that flight path, regardless of range, and I can understand that.

For instance, even if the target is 250 meters away, I may be on the other side of a ridge and need the extra vertical to hit him, so indirect flight path would work better for me. On the other hand, even though the target is 750 meters away, he may be under an overhang (Caustic Valley, anyone?) and a direct flight path would allow me to hit him.

[Cimarb]

Sandpit, on 25 November 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

I feel the weapons are pretty well balanced as is. No need to nerf ballistics

I don't disagree, necessarily, as I like pretty much all of the weapons for one role or another, but the pinpoint issue that many, many people complain about is not a convergence issue at all - it is the amount of damage applied instantly to one single hitbox. No one complains about MGs being overpowered, or the LBX, or any of the lasers even, because they all do their damage over time. The ones people complain about are PPCs, ACs, and Gauss. I think the delayed fire of the Gauss has successfully put it in a great niche, but the other two are still problem children.