213 replies to this topic

[TychoTheItinerant]

Roadbeer, on 13 November 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I can't, because

my tongue is

inextricably lodged

in my left nostril.

I like Nickelback

and Stephanie Meyer

novels.

Fixed. Two can play that game.

[RG Notch]

Roadbeer, on 13 November 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

You're right, blaming the players is much easier because there are more of them to swing the bat at.
But it's not like BT/MW is a hot IP, otherwise it wouldn't have taken 10 years for someone to pick up the mantle. But as I type that, I realize that the IP has been in a legal quagmire for the bulk of that time, so maybe you have a point that SHOULD PGI fail, it would get picked up rather quickly. M$ willing.

Don't neglect the ease of poking PGI though, I get lots of mileage out of the they care too much line and some of their other blunders. Players on the other hand are just easy pickings, look at the guy in this thread. I used to poke the Goons but they all left and I started agreeing with some of what they were saying at the end. If anything I used to be harder on the players until PGI showed me they really should never have got the license.
I used to post a lot more and be more evenhanded in my bashing but PGI has shown they won't listen and really just seem to view us as fungible paying units. So I stick to just needling them and the staunch defenders for fun. It's turned into a win win for me. Either PGI reverses the slide and we get a fun mech game or it goes **** up and I can laugh at the former mods and defenders who helped protect PGI from criticism. Some of it may not be constructive but it's just as helpful as the PGI can do no wrong folks, or if not PGI no MW/BT games. BTW if you defend PGI at every turn saying you have some issues with them is no different from the bigot who claims to have minority friends (nor aimed at you Roadbeer.)
Anyways, nice to have an adult discussion, I'm betting your lil pal is getting riled as we speak.

[Roadbeer]

RG Notch, on 13 November 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Anyways, nice to have an adult discussion, I'm betting your lil pal is getting riled as we speak.

Which one, my little plaything? It's really got to drive him up the wall that I'm able to completely destroy him while simultaneously have a conversation.

I used to take the other tack, I found it REALLY easy to smack PGI around because I looked at them as a mature game company, even though I had never heard of them. This was right up to between the monetization of CW and the beginning of 3pvageddion.
When in my own life, I took on a project for a client because I thought I knew what I was doing and spent about 100 hours creating a database for them, and individually, each component of it worked flawlessly, it was when I tried to tie it all together that it fell apart and I realized that "This is kinda hard" and had to spend another 30 hours of my personal time finding out where I screwed up, and fix it.
Couple that experience, along with learning more about PGI and I discovered that they are a young and relatively inexperienced company so I decided to cut them a bit of slack (not let them off the hook) but not hit them with both barrels at every "slight" that came down the pipe.

They still hear it when I disagree, but (and we'll probably disagree) it's a damn sight better than it was a year ago. We don't have Kaleidoscopic HUD and Lurmpocalypse type patches. So my disagreement only comes with changes like the FSWG removal Yeah, they're moving molasses slow, but I do see forward progress, so, as long as there is that they'll have my support.

Besides, posters like my little plaything there, amuse the {Scrap} out of me.

Edit: Don't believe me, look at this list

TychoTheItinerant, on 13 November 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Fixed. Two can play that game.

LOL, it seriously

is like watching

a Great White

play with a seal

before eating it.

Edited by Roadbeer, 13 November 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[RG Notch]

Roadbeer, on 13 November 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Which one, my little plaything? It's really got to drive him up the wall that I'm able to completely destroy him while simultaneously have a conversation.

I used to take the other tack, I found it REALLY easy to smack PGI around because I looked at them as a mature game company, even though I had never heard of them. This was right up to between the monetization of CW and the beginning of 3pvageddion.
When in my own life, I took on a project for a client because I thought I knew what I was doing and spent about 100 hours creating a database for them, and individually, each component of it worked flawlessly, it was when I tried to tie it all together that it fell apart and I realized that "This is kinda hard" and had to spend another 30 hours of my personal time finding out where I screwed up, and fix it.
Couple that experience, along with learning more about PGI and I discovered that they are a young and relatively inexperienced company so I decided to cut them a bit of slack (not let them off the hook) but not hit them with both barrels at every "slight" that came down the pipe.

They still hear it when I disagree, but (and we'll probably disagree) it's a damn sight better than it was a year ago. We don't have Kaleidoscopic HUD and Lurmpocalypse type patches. So my disagreement only comes with changes like the FSWG removal Yeah, they're moving molasses slow, but I do see forward progress, so, as long as there is that they'll have my support.

Besides, posters like my little plaything there, amuse the {Scrap} out of me.

Edit: Don't believe me, look at this list

See that points out the fact of how easy it is to mock the players. I don't give PGI any slack anymore, because they act like they don't need it. The 3PV snafu was the perfect example. Instead of letting it slip they felt 3PV wasn't a big advantage they tried to slip in it and even add in the patch notes a comment like it was awaited with bated breath. Then they get snarky on twitter about it. Then when faced with forum uproar, they issue lame horribly put together "We're sorry if you were offended" type apology. They threw the poor CM under the bus and acted like people going on vacation was a valid reason for such nonsense. That showed me that, yeah they are a young company, but they don't seem to want to know it.
That and communicating with their mods shows the same level of incompetence and inexperience coupled with attitude. In other words NOOBS. They are new to this but won't take advice and think they know it all. People like that deserve all the {Scrap} that gets heaped on them because they could have avoided a lot if they wouldn't act like they have everything in order, that the game is great and everyone is happy.
I do think they have made small strides in game balancing, which is tough work. I do think they too often have excuses. IT's a beta, unforeseen this or that, then we're working on new UI blah blah. There's always something that keeps them from adding new modes or fixing issues they even acknowledge. The game is better than before in many ways, but it's also the same in too many ways. No new maps, no new modes. It's like if they can't monetize it, it gets back burnered.
They pinned themselves in a corner with all the bridges they've burned. They've upset Founders and competitive players and failed to deliver a new player experience worth a ****. I can't see how they expect this game's population to grow while the game itself remains stagnant. Little new content to interest vets and no tutorials or help for new players.
According to some there's a huge player base of happy folk who never come here and happily hand over cash but even they will burn out. How long until these people have all the mechs they want mastered and no need to spend for premium. How many new players will stick out the awful NPE? How many times can they answer AtD questions with SOON?
For the progress they've made do you see this game heading for a big uptick soon? Let's be real the new UI isn't likely to see general release in 2013. Do you think 2014 holds good things for MWO?

[Roadbeer]

RG Notch, on 13 November 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

For the progress they've made do you see this game heading for a big uptick soon? Let's be real the new UI isn't likely to see general release in 2013. Do you think 2014 holds good things for MWO?

Depends on what UI 2.0 actually is. I know enough that you can do a lot of great things when you change/improve your DB structure. It all remains to be seen. As far as WHEN, we're what, 7 weeks from the end of 2013? Who cares at this point? You can apoplecticly talk about deadlines or realize it'll happen when it happens. Should PGI say "We've had these problems", Yes, will that change anything? Not really.

As far as the way the forum reacted (death threats, etc.) to 3PV, they got the response they deserved, even though from a business standpoint, it wasn't the right thing to do. From where I'm sitting, someone threatens my family, calls in bomb threats, you're LUCKY you get a half-hearted apology and an arrest record.

[RG Notch]

Roadbeer, on 13 November 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Depends on what UI 2.0 actually is. I know enough that you can do a lot of great things when you change/improve your DB structure. It all remains to be seen. As far as WHEN, we're what, 7 weeks from the end of 2013? Who cares at this point? You can apoplecticly talk about deadlines or realize it'll happen when it happens. Should PGI say "We've had these problems", Yes, will that change anything? Not really.

As far as the way the forum reacted (death threats, etc.) to 3PV, they got the response they deserved, even though from a business standpoint, it wasn't the right thing to do. From where I'm sitting, someone threatens my family, calls in bomb threats, you're LUCKY you get a half-hearted apology and an arrest record.

You didn't answer the question although you did manage to blame the loonies again. If you're going to let the loonies control how you manage a community, you get what you deserve. Saying it will happen when it happens is just sad. When I have deadlines I have to make them, or I have to explain to the client what happened and hope they will understand and continue to retain me. PGI seems to be of the impression that things will happen when they happen and the customer should be happy they let them play at all. They seem to feel they can get away with it be done when it's done. That works for folks with a solid reputation, not for folks who make fishing and hunting games and the forgetable MP of Duke Nukem Forever.
I ask again, for the progress they've made and supposing this UI is like the magic wands you talk about do you see PGI turning this around? I'm honestly not sure. I think if they don't change mindset and really get cracking this is going bust. They clearly don't have a huge player pool. Spin it how you want, if they did they wouldn't hide the player counter. So are the UI changes going to be enough to get folks to come back. Because I can't see CW, even in skeletal form being out until the 2nd quarter of 2014. PGI just can't seem to foresee problems and always does the opposite of what you should do, they over promise and under deliver expertly.

[Dakkath]

Where the heck is Mike Forst??!

[RG Notch]

Dakkath, on 13 November 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Where the heck is Mike Forst??!

Vacation, that's the usual excuse.

[Roadbeer]

Sorry, didn't see the question, at least not the question you wanted answered.

RG Notch, on 13 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

That works for folks with a solid reputation, not for folks who make fishing and hunting games and the forgetable MP of Duke Nukem Forever.

Ok, I keep seeing that line and I kind of find it somewhat unfair, it's like saying "Oh, you've worked at McDonald's, well, you're only qualified to work in fast food, regardless of what skills you may have. And even if they try to do something better, you remind them at every misstep that they're only experience is at McDonald's. Those who love to point that out, should give them credit for trying something harder than working at McDonald's, not mock them for it.

RG Notch, on 13 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

I ask again, for the progress they've made and supposing this UI is like the magic wands you talk about do you see PGI turning this around? I'm honestly not sure. I think if they don't change mindset and really get cracking this is going bust.

I honestly don't have an answer. Don't know if too much damage is done or if UI 2/CW are going to be ground breaking, your guess is as good as mine.

RG Notch, on 13 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

They clearly don't have a huge player pool. Spin it how you want, if they did they wouldn't hide the player counter.

I'm on both sides of this, you and I only have anecdotal evidence based off of our personal experience, so I don't have a good metric to prove if that's true or not. Removing the player counter is a strong argument against a healthy game, but I also have clients who have asked me to remove their hit counter because they find it unnecessary and their traffic is stable/increasing. Had there never been a player counter in the first place, what would your metric be? www.house-marik.net has 3 new people sign up ever day, and a good portion of them are new players. If I go by that metric, the game is doing well (not great, but well).

RG Notch, on 13 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

So are the UI changes going to be enough to get folks to come back. Because I can't see CW, even in skeletal form being out until the 2nd quarter of 2014.

LIke I said, I don't have an answer really. Without knowing what the underlying factors are of the UI, I can't say "Oh, when that's implemented, it will take X number of weeks to implement Y feature. I do know, from experience, that once you change the structure of your UI, the rest of it flies together quite quickly as all the hard work underneath has been done. It's what lies beneath that is the real factor, everything on top is just the gloss.

RG Notch, on 13 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

PGI just can't seem to foresee problems and always does the opposite of what you should do, they over promise and under deliver expertly.

That's common with most young, inexperienced, companies. Unfortunately they are now in a situation where the learning curve is steep and the clients are unforgiving. You asked earlier if I thought they were in over their head, and I said yes, and like with the young, they are arrogant about their mortality. I *THINK* they've had their gut-check moment, their first trip to the hospital, whatever analogy you want to use. The question is what they're going to do about it? and did they learn from it?

DId I get all your questions?

[RG Notch]

Roadbeer, on 13 November 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Sorry, didn't see the question, at least not the question you wanted answered.

Ok, I keep seeing that line and I kind of find it somewhat unfair, it's like saying "Oh, you've worked at McDonald's, well, you're only qualified to work in fast food, regardless of what skills you may have. And even if they try to do something better, you remind them at every misstep that they're only experience is at McDonald's. Those who love to point that out, should give them credit for trying something harder than working at McDonald's, not mock them for it.


I honestly don't have an answer. Don't know if too much damage is done or if UI 2/CW are going to be ground breaking, your guess is as good as mine.


I'm on both sides of this, you and I only have anecdotal evidence based off of our personal experience, so I don't have a good metric to prove if that's true or not. Removing the player counter is a strong argument against a healthy game, but I also have clients who have asked me to remove their hit counter because they find it unnecessary and their traffic is stable/increasing. Had there never been a player counter in the first place, what would your metric be? www.house-marik.net has 3 new people sign up ever day, and a good portion of them are new players. If I go by that metric, the game is doing well (not great, but well).


LIke I said, I don't have an answer really. Without knowing what the underlying factors are of the UI, I can't say "Oh, when that's implemented, it will take X number of weeks to implement Y feature. I do know, from experience, that once you change the structure of your UI, the rest of it flies together quite quickly as all the hard work underneath has been done. It's what lies beneath that is the real factor, everything on top is just the gloss.


That's common with most young, inexperienced, companies. Unfortunately they are now in a situation where the learning curve is steep and the clients are unforgiving. You asked earlier if I thought they were in over their head, and I said yes, and like with the young, they are arrogant about their mortality. I *THINK* they've had their gut-check moment, their first trip to the hospital, whatever analogy you want to use. The question is what they're going to do about it? and did they learn from it?

DId I get all your questions?

I believe so. Thanks for answering. The real issue is what did they take away from these bad experiences. I feel they took the wrong lessons. Instead of trying to figure out and explain new features they went all closed mouthed. As if not giving anyone stuff to complain about works. Without information people were free to speculate wildly and talk so much about issues amongst themselves without all the info they came up with great ideas that probably never could have been implemented because of perfectly legitimate reasons known only to the team. I'm not saying they needed to be on the forums and answering everything. They sadly seem to feel there is no middle ground between Stalinist lock down and answering everything. Even their attempts to get around this, the AtD devolved into empty non answers to most questions.
They ran away from criticism instead of engaging with it. They became afraid of the forums. Forums like any dangerous beast need to be controlled and dealt with. Leaving them to their own devices or beating them down too much leads to running and screaming. Once it got wild and bit you you had to either reason with it or run away. That allowed things to spoil and it went downhill from there.
Anyways I just wish they would at least give us the roadmap, even if it's long and twisty and written in pencil. People killed them for going back on their word. I think most of it had to do with how they went about it. In a case like this it's probably best to do the opposite of the saying it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. I think they should have said it was coming and dealt with the outcry up front rather than the tempest over nothing it really was. You can joke about a the 3PV whatever you call it but I think that incident did irreparable harm to the community. I think it was a waste of resources that accomplished nothing but drove away players. I don't think it helps new players or attracted anyone and the reasoning of the "apology" was laughable and insulting IMHO. Not gonna rehash that again.
I will never understand why they "launched" in the state it was,...well now as It think about it if the UI and CW are as far off as I fear I guess they really couldn't wait for them to be done. That decision and the sluggish development may be the last straws and this camel may need a backiotomy.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Destined, on 13 November 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

What's a mod?

A terrible jorb to have on this game forum.

[Ter Ushaka]

Destined, on 13 November 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

What's a mod?

[Otto Cannon]

I enjoyed this thread. I normally forget to check here but the thread I was in got moved with me still in it. I'm glad I took the time to look around, there's a lot being moved here now so I should drop in more often.

The cake was good too.

[Kunae]

Roadbeer, on 13 November 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Ok, I keep seeing that line and I kind of find it somewhat unfair, it's like saying "Oh, you've worked at McDonald's, well, you're only qualified to work in fast food, regardless of what skills you may have. And even if they try to do something better, you remind them at every misstep that they're only experience is at McDonald's. Those who love to point that out, should give them credit for trying something harder than working at McDonald's, not mock them for it.

They are not our children, nor friends, who we feel the need to encourage, to make something better for themselves. We are not their mommies.

Rather than approaching this as a parent, with PGI the errant children, think of this more as taking your favorite pooch to a vet when they have a serious ailment. Do you want your pooch, lovingly named Mechwarrior, operated on by an experienced veterinary surgeon, or some guy who has only worked at McDonalds before, but wants to try something harder?

[Roadbeer]

Kunae, on 14 November 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

They are not our children, nor friends, who we feel the need to encourage, to make something better for themselves. We are not their mommies.

Rather than approaching this as a parent, with PGI the errant children, think of this more as taking your favorite pooch to a vet when they have a serious ailment. Do you want your pooch, lovingly named Mechwarrior, operated on by an experienced veterinary surgeon, or some guy who has only worked at McDonalds before, but wants to try something harder?

Only that we're in a remote area, and at the time, we only have someone fresh out of vet school, who once worked at McDonald's.
Do we want to let our inexperienced vet to at least try? and through trial and error, hopefully save our ailing "Mechwarrior" while giving us the option to pay him or not.

Or do we just put a bullet in our beloved "Mechwarrior"? And then wait for someone to breed another pet like our beloved pooch, which may or may not ever come.

Because if the answer is the later, why are you even here?

[Kunae]

Roadbeer, on 14 November 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Only that we're in a remote area, and at the time, we only have someone fresh out of vet school, who once worked at McDonald's.
Do we want to let our inexperienced vet to at least try? and through trial and error, hopefully save our ailing "Mechwarrior" while giving us the option to pay him or not.

Or do we just put a bullet in our beloved "Mechwarrior"? And then wait for someone to breed another pet like our beloved pooch, which may or may not ever come.

Because if the answer is the later, why are you even here?

Ah, the old fallback to "If PGI's Mechwarrior flops, nooooone will ever touch this for another 60 gazillion years!!111!one!!".

I don't buy into that paranoia. I think that the environment wasn't right, for a new MW game, over the last 10 year hiatus. Look at what has happened in the last year and a half to two years.

Star Citizen funded.
MWO launched.
Elite Dangerous funded.
Camelot Unchained funded.

All of these IP's have seen an absence for 9-15 years, yet are now making a resurgence. I think, with the advent of successful crowd-funding recently, that this is a sea-change in the game development industry, and that the Mechwarrior IP could thrive, in the right hands, if PGI's MWO folds.

[Roadbeer]

Kunae, on 14 November 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Ah, the old fallback to "If PGI's Mechwarrior flops, nooooone will ever touch this for another 60 gazillion years!!111!one!!".

I don't buy into that paranoia. I think that the environment wasn't right, for a new MW game, over the last 10 year hiatus. Look at what has happened in the last year and a half to two years.

Star Citizen funded.
MWO launched.
Elite Dangerous funded.
Camelot Unchained funded.

All of these IP's have seen an absence for 9-15 years, yet are now making a resurgence. I think, with the advent of successful crowd-funding recently, that this is a sea-change in the game development industry, and that the Mechwarrior IP could thrive, in the right hands, if PGI's MWO folds.

See, that's not what I said at all.
I didn't say "If PGI didn't, nobody would!", I said, at the time PGI is doing it, so support it or don't.

[Kunae]

Roadbeer, on 14 November 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

See, that's not what I said at all.
I didn't say "If PGI didn't, nobody would!", I said, at the time PGI is doing it, so support it or don't.

Actually you implied that:

Roadbeer, on 14 November 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Or do we just put a bullet in our beloved "Mechwarrior"? And then wait for someone to breed another pet like our beloved pooch, which may or may not ever come.

That pretty much says what I hyperbolized.

[RG Notch]

My comments regarding PGi's resume wasn't about them trying something new, it was about acting like successful companies that can get away with telling their player's it'll be done when it's done. If you've got a track record of success people will cut you slack. When you have none you are required to get things done on time or people will use the slack to hang you.
I said before you get slack as a new company if you act like know you are one. Once you decide you can be arrogant and you know best, well then you've worn out your chances.

[Roadbeer]

Kunae, on 14 November 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

That pretty much says what I hyperbolized.

Fair enough, I should have said "Which may or may not be a long time in coming"

RG Notch, on 14 November 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

My comments regarding PGi's resume wasn't about them trying something new, it was about acting like successful companies that can get away with telling their player's it'll be done when it's done. If you've got a track record of success people will cut you slack. When you have none you are required to get things done on time or people will use the slack to hang you.
I said before you get slack as a new company if you act like know you are one. Once you decide you can be arrogant and you know best, well then you've worn out your chances.

Oh yeah, they need a healthy dose of Humble Pie... or K Town cake (which can be quite humbling)... whichever.