116 replies to this topic

[Bront]

Cementblade, on 17 November 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

the saber will have 113 kph max and 7 jjs max

Griffin and Wolverine will likely have a 116kph max, just like the Shadowhawk and Kintaro most likely.

[Buckminster]

Bront, on 17 November 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Because those are the mechs that were available to them?

Because mediums will become more used when tonnage limits come out?

Because 55 tons is a sweet spot in speed/weapons/durability in TT and has many popular mechs?

If you look at the distribution of mechs, they have 5 different chassis representing light mechs, compared to 4 representing 55 ton mediums. Here's the breakdown:

Lights - 5
Mediums - 9 (4 at 55 tons)
Heavy - 7
Assault - 6

I'm not disappointed in the lack of assault mechs - they are supposed to be the rarest mechs on the battlefield. But I just have to believe that there are other mechs they could have opted for. Even if you take out the Unseens, there are plenty of other options.

Although I will be curious to see how this falls together with the upcoming weight limits.

[Bront]

Buckminster, on 17 November 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

If you look at the distribution of mechs, they have 5 different chassis representing light mechs, compared to 4 representing 55 ton mediums. Here's the breakdown:

Lights - 5
Mediums - 9 (4 at 55 tons)
Heavy - 7
Assault - 6

I'm not disappointed in the lack of assault mechs - they are supposed to be the rarest mechs on the battlefield. But I just have to believe that there are other mechs they could have opted for. Even if you take out the Unseens, there are plenty of other options.

Although I will be curious to see how this falls together with the upcoming weight limits.

The issue is they were aiming for the unseen, so that limited what mechs they could use a bit. Also, in Lore, mediums were the workhorses of war.

That said, I'd love to see a few more lights and maybe another heavy (and a 95 tonner, just because).

[Xeno Phalcon]

I might pilot a griffin down the line just because i like mediums with jump jets, if I could figure out how to shoehorn jump jets into my kintaro I would. (WTB Jump Jet Module)

[Sephlock]

627, on 14 November 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Sure, but lets wait for the ingame model. Let's see how big the hitboxes will be and how useful that arm shield really is.

Anything short of this will be unacceptable, given the downsides of the loadout.

[Victor Morson]

The problem stems from them not understanding, at all, how to design a 'mech and their constant refusal to talk to the player base about it, more than anything.

I seriously doubt they meant to make the Shadow Hawk a God amongst mediums and out date their own Saber reinforcement pack before it even drops, but that's what they did. The Jester thread highlights the problem: Garth came in near the end of the thread and tried to sell everyone on all the designs he cooked up for it and they were all horrendous.

I bet if you asked the designers "Why is the Shadow Hawk so good?" they wouldn't know the answers. At all. Every great mech, or terrible mech, we have is the result of them purely getting very lucky, or very unlucky, I think.

But yeah, you're right. Both the Griffin and the Wolverine are entirely outdated before they even get released. The Wolverine will be moderately more useful due to the meta, but the Griffin's problems go far beyond a current ballistic meta. The only way to save one of these is to reintroduce an ECM model.

It's about gun placement, hit box design, intelligent hard points, scale and engine restrictions.. all things that aligned perfectly on the Shadow Hawk.

EDIT: Also I wish they'd stop giving us energy boats. The infamous "maths" makes them terrible.

Edited by Victor Morson, 17 November 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Non-meta is good. Variety is good. Saber package 'Mechs will be good.

If you like ballistics, Shadow Hawk might just be close to perfect. If you don't, it's nowhere near.

Griffin and Wolverine aren't outdated. Far from it.

Oh, and not all Griffin variants have the whole "weapons on right side only" quirk. In fact, the only one that does is the Phoenix variant.

They get the variants from tabletop BattleTech, Victor. All but the Hero 'Mechs, of course. Some tabletop variants work well in this game, and some no so much. You may not like them, but that doesn't mean everyone doesn't like them.

[A_Crotchety_Old_Geezer]

Durant Carlyle, on 17 November 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

Non-meta is good. Variety is good. Saber package 'Mechs will be good.

If you like ballistics, Shadow Hawk might just be close to perfect. If you don't, it's nowhere near.

Griffin and Wolverine aren't outdated. Far from it.

Oh, and not all Griffin variants have the whole "weapons on right side only" quirk. In fact, the only one that does is the Phoenix variant.

They get the variants from tabletop BattleTech, Victor. All but the Hero 'Mechs, of course. Some tabletop variants work well in this game, and some no so much. You may not like them, but that doesn't mean everyone doesn't like them.

If I remember correctly, the Shadow Hawk was bashed a lot before it came out. On paper, it seemed at the very least unimpressive (the Cinderella of the Phoenix package, Locust aside). In the field, it proved to be very effective and fun.

In the end, the succes (or the failure) of the Saber package will depend on the brains behind the keyboards. In my opnion, the Griffin might be viable either as a "sniper" or as a light mech hunter (or both).

As to the current meta, well... let me stress the adjective "current". Who knows what will change in the future?

My only concern, as a left handed person, is that I prefer using weapons on the left arm. I wish there was an option to flip the loadout, some sort of mirror variant inside the variant. But that might be asking a bit too much.

Edited by Jherek Carnelian, 18 November 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Jherek Carnelian, on 18 November 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

My only concern, as a left handed person, is that I prefer using weapons on the left arm. I wish there was an option to flip the loadout, some sort of mirror variant inside the variant. But that might be asking a bit too much.

I'm a dexter, myself. I can think pretty ambidextrously, and it's not too much of a disadvantage for me to have an asymmetric build biased towards the left, but now that I think of it most of my heavier single weapons tend to be mounted on the right.

Huh.

[Odanan]

627, on 13 November 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Meta meta meta... the Jester is all energy, don't even has missiles and is fun and can be dangerous.

So why not put the zombie cent in a bigger chassis?
GRF-1N
3xML, 3x ASRM6, XL300, 14DHS, 6 JJ

For me this promises fun

Nice build!
Wouldn't it be better to put all ammo in the legs, tough?

[Bront]

Jherek Carnelian, on 18 November 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

n the end, the succes (or the failure) of the Saber package will depend on the brains behind the keyboards. In my opnion, the Griffin might be viable either as a "sniper" or as a light mech hunter (or both).

It could also challenge the Cent for zombie rolls since it can mount JJs at the cost of 1 CT ML, but that may depend on the hit boxes.

Immagine this beast WVR-6R

Edit: Doh, you said Griffin. Still...

Edited by Bront, 20 November 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

I had the old 1:48 scale model of both, so I'm looking forward to that release, regardless of how effective the mechs are. Just goofing off on Smurfy's site, though, I tend to agree with you: the Wolverine's pretty diverse and has a good spread of hardpoints.

The Griffin...is a "finesse" mech, I think.

[Lord de Seis]

One can only hope there is some re-balancing by the time it is added, the Griffin and Wolverine are a couple of my favorites from playing Neveron though so I look forward to playing them.

[MavRCK]

This thread doesn't make any sense to me... the idea of the meta being all encompassing-jump snipers isn't true...

[Geek Verve]

The strange thing is, I woke up this meta and went to the meta to have some meta. Then I took a meta (read: "shower", you miscreants) and headed off to meta. On the way, my meta started making this crazy meta sound, so I had to pull over to the side of the meta...

Seriously, I think we sometimes really tend to get wrapped around the axle here, where the game's "meta" is concerned.

Edited by Geek Verve, 20 November 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Bront]

MavRCK, on 20 November 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

This thread doesn't make any sense to me... the idea of the meta being all encompassing-jump snipers isn't true...

Not jump snipers, but balistics rule.

Also, the 12 man competitive meta is different from the 12 man casual meta is different from the PUG/4 man meta.

[MavRCK]

Bront, on 20 November 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Not jump snipers, but balistics rule.

Also, the 12 man competitive meta is different from the 12 man casual meta is different from the PUG/4 man meta.

No, ballistics don't rule... you need to mix high heat weapons and low heat weapons to maximize efficiency... i dunno why you're so focused on ballistics...

PPC OP

Ballistics OP

LRM OP

ECM OP

Geezzzzzzz.. Everything is OP

[Ngamok]

NRP, on 15 November 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

I'm having a hard time seeing what the Saber mechs can do that my Kintaros can't (besides jump).

The Wolverine is the exact same thing as the Shadow Hawk except the ballistics are in the arm not the shoulder. Without seeing the other two Griffins, the prime variant makes a decent energy and missile striker. Mediums + SRMs or LRMs or 1 ER/PPC ER/LL and missiles.

[Ngamok]

Victor Morson, on 17 November 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

The problem stems from them not understanding, at all, how to design a 'mech and their constant refusal to talk to the player base about it, more than anything.

I seriously doubt they meant to make the Shadow Hawk a God amongst mediums and out date their own Saber reinforcement pack before it even drops, but that's what they did. The Jester thread highlights the problem: Garth came in near the end of the thread and tried to sell everyone on all the designs he cooked up for it and they were all horrendous.

I bet if you asked the designers "Why is the Shadow Hawk so good?" they wouldn't know the answers. At all. Every great mech, or terrible mech, we have is the result of them purely getting very lucky, or very unlucky, I think.

But yeah, you're right. Both the Griffin and the Wolverine are entirely outdated before they even get released. The Wolverine will be moderately more useful due to the meta, but the Griffin's problems go far beyond a current ballistic meta. The only way to save one of these is to reintroduce an ECM model.

It's about gun placement, hit box design, intelligent hard points, scale and engine restrictions.. all things that aligned perfectly on the Shadow Hawk.

EDIT: Also I wish they'd stop giving us energy boats. The infamous "maths" makes them terrible.

The WVR-6R and the SHD-2H are nearly identical in laodouts. Difference is 1 Ballsitic slot more in the SHD-2H which are all torso mounted and the WVR-6R is arm mounted. Or are you referring to the head missile slot in the SHD series?

[NRP]

MavRCK, on 20 November 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

No, ballistics don't rule... you need to mix high heat weapons and low heat weapons to maximize efficiency...

Yes, ballistics rule, precisely because they are low heat, high pinpoint damage, high DPS weapons. Energy builds have been nerfed into the ground by raising individual weapon base heat and adding ghost heat on top of that.

Edited by NRP, 20 November 2013 - 02:35 PM.