116 replies to this topic

[Bront]

MavRCK, on 20 November 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Geezzzzzzz.. Everything is OP

Nerfwarrior Online

[Mercer Skye]

Don't care what anyone says, 7JJ 'Boat'ffin is going to be awesome.

But not nearly as awesome as the fire breathing 'Logan'

[Bront]

Mercer Skye, on 20 November 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

But not nearly as awesome as the fire breathing 'Logan'

1 ton of ammo for 4 SRM4s?

[Christof Romulus]

I run my Shadowhawk as a "Poptart" and do just fine.
Shadowhawk
SHADOW HAWK SHD-5M
Matches Played 23
Wins 10
Losses 13
Ratio 0.77
Kills 27
Deaths 16
Ratio 1.69
Damage Done 7,758
XP Earned 29,946
Time Played 02:15:51


That build should look really familiar because it's identical to how I'm going to run my Griffins.
Griffin

[Geek Verve]

NRP, on 20 November 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Yes, ballistics rule, precisely because they are low heat, high pinpoint damage, high DPS weapons. Energy builds have been nerfed into the ground by raising individual weapon base heat and adding ghost heat on top of that.

AC5 + 2-tons of ammo (single heat sinks - as if it matters)
6-crit slots
10-tons
60-shots max.
Damage: 5
DPS: 3.33 for a total of 90-seconds - about 300-base damage max.

ER Large Laser (with the minimum of 10-DHS as is included in 250 engines and up, cool run and heat containment basics)
2-crit slots
5-tons
Unlimited shots
Damage: 9
DPS: 2.12 for the entire match (without overheating)

Equip the equivalent capacity of ERLL's and you get:
4-crit slots
10-tons
Unlimited shots
Damage: 18
DPS: 2.29 for the entire match (without overheating) - as much base damage as you can keep targets in your sights (upwards of 412 over just 3-minutes of max. rate of fire)

I'd say neither is particular OP over the other. Throw in just a couple additional DHS (as most do) and your DPS jumps to 2.58 - again for the entire duration of the match. As a matter of fact, if you're a steady shot, the obvious choice would appear to be lasers.

Edited by Geek Verve, 22 November 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[NRP]

Nice theory crafting. Now go build a mech around AC/5s and a mech around ERLLs, run them for 20 or so drops, then come back and tell us your story. There is a reason everyone runs ballistics these days.

[C E Dwyer]

Marauder3D, on 10 November 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

After having a fantastic experience mastering out my Shadow Hawks, I realized something about the upcoming Saber Pack: Griffins focus exclusively on missles and energy weapons. So they are basically a jumping Kintaro with less missle hardpoints.

The current meta emphasizes the low(ish) heat AC family of weapons with high DPS. The Shadow Hawk and Wolverine (6R at least) can both take advantage of multiple ACs on the gun mount. Unfortunately, this leaves the Griffin out in the cold.

Neither the Griffin 1N, nor the 1S or 3M, have any ballistic hardpoints in canon. I've been looking forward to the Saber pack--don't get me wrong. It just occurred to me that the playstyle forced by missle/energy boats is totally different than the current "hose enemy down with AC fire" meta.

Anyone have any thoughts or potential builds for the Griffin to get around this limitation?

Cheers!

wolverine should be good, griffin is going to fail hard here it worked in turn based, but in a flowing almost 1st person shooter, its going to {Scrap} out badly because it relied on lrms and ppcs as a high mobility stnd off mech

[Geek Verve]

NRP, on 22 November 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Nice theory crafting. Now go build a mech around AC/5s and a mech around ERLLs, run them for 20 or so drops, then come back and tell us your story. There is a reason everyone runs ballistics these days.

I have. I regularly use both setups and like them each for their own reasons and do well with both. /shrug

About the only thing ballistics have over lasers is screen shake and higher damage per hit (at the cost of much higher weight and significantly more crit slots). I could see perhaps increasing the heat output of the higher caliber AC's a bit, but that would be about it.

Edited by Geek Verve, 22 November 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Tahribator]

Geek Verve, on 22 November 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

About the only thing ballistics have over lasers is screen shake and higher damage per hit (at the cost of much higher weight and significantly more crit slots). I could see perhaps increasing the heat output of the higher caliber AC's a bit, but that would be about it.

Pinpoint damage delivered to just one component? Little to no heat, thus enabling builds with as little as just 10DHS? Constant DPS which is practically unaffected by heat? 3xOpt max range compared to 2xOpt max range of lasers?

Perhaps you meant PPC's with "lasers" as currently a ballistics boat like the Jager/Cataphract will demolish any laser boat you throw at it. Big lasers are only good when the enemy lets you sit back and chain them all day, like that occasional ERLL Stalker with 1000 damage.

[Mokou]

TS do not know about AWS mechs?

[Bront]

Geek Verve, on 22 November 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

AC5 + 2-tons of ammo (single heat sinks - as if it matters)
6-crit slots
10-tons
60-shots max.
Damage: 5
DPS: 3.33 for a total of 90-seconds - about 300-base damage max.

ER Large Laser (with the minimum of 10-DHS as is included in 250 engines and up, cool run and heat containment basics)
2-crit slots
5-tons
Unlimited shots
Damage: 9
DPS: 2.12 for the entire match (without overheating)

Equip the equivalent capacity of ERLL's and you get:
4-crit slots
10-tons
Unlimited shots
Damage: 18
DPS: 2.29 for the entire match (without overheating) - as much base damage as you can keep targets in your sights (upwards of 412 over just 3-minutes of max. rate of fire)

I'd say neither is particular OP over the other. Throw in just a couple additional DHS (as most do) and your DPS jumps to 2.58 - again for the entire duration of the match. As a matter of fact, if you're a steady shot, the obvious choice would appear to be lasers.

I like that theory, but there are 4 arguments against it.

1) The AC5 damage is front loaded, meaning it dishes out more DPS early, resulting in more early damage, resulting in more early kills, turning the tide of the battle so ammo limits are less of an issue.

2) Pinpoint damage means the AC5s do 5 points of damage to a single component at range, and do reasonable damage outside of optimal range. The single ERLL needs half a second of focus time to do that (potentially harder to do at range), and 2 ERLLs still require more than a quarter of a second focus time. Focus time also exposes you to direct return fire more.

3) Heat of that single AC5 means you can also mount an energy weapon companion easier. The 1 Balistic 2 Energy mech can mount the AC5 and 2 ERLLs just fine. The 3 Energy mech can't mount more than 2 ERLLs easily, meaning it's either an extra ML (less range and Still needs extra HS), or 3MLs instead (better heat, and tonnage, but at the cost of range).

- 3A) That said, on Mechs where you're choosing between ONLY an AC5 or 2 ERLL, 2 ERLL probably a better choice due to single shot damage potential as well as ammo concerns

4) Energy loadouts are terrably dependant on the tempurature of the world. DPS of the energy build drops on warmer maps (though it does go up on cooler ones), where as the heat for the AC5 is negligible with SHS on just about any world.

[Geek Verve]

Bront, on 24 November 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

I like that theory, but there are 4 arguments against it.

1) The AC5 damage is front loaded, meaning it dishes out more DPS early, resulting in more early damage, resulting in more early kills, turning the tide of the battle so ammo limits are less of an issue.

2) Pinpoint damage means the AC5s do 5 points of damage to a single component at range, and do reasonable damage outside of optimal range. The single ERLL needs half a second of focus time to do that (potentially harder to do at range), and 2 ERLLs still require more than a quarter of a second focus time. Focus time also exposes you to direct return fire more.

3) Heat of that single AC5 means you can also mount an energy weapon companion easier. The 1 Balistic 2 Energy mech can mount the AC5 and 2 ERLLs just fine. The 3 Energy mech can't mount more than 2 ERLLs easily, meaning it's either an extra ML (less range and Still needs extra HS), or 3MLs instead (better heat, and tonnage, but at the cost of range).

- 3A) That said, on Mechs where you're choosing between ONLY an AC5 or 2 ERLL, 2 ERLL probably a better choice due to single shot damage potential as well as ammo concerns

4) Energy loadouts are terrably dependant on the tempurature of the world. DPS of the energy build drops on warmer maps (though it does go up on cooler ones), where as the heat for the AC5 is negligible with SHS on just about any world.

All valid points. However, the way I see it is, where longer range shots are concerned, a skilled player will be equally effective with either. A lesser-skilled player isn't provided an easier experience with either, as they're going to have to come to a halt to be accurate in either case.

With ballistics, if you miss, you miss. With lasers, you can at least do a portion of the damage, if you can't stay on target for a full second (.5/.6 seconds for pulse). This fact alone provides a bit of an advantage to lesser-skilled players.

Having played both extensively, I don't find one to be particularly "better" than the other. I simply find they offer different styles of play and different strategies where load out is concerned. In the interest of full disclosure, I do prefer ballistics. However, it's more because I particularly enjoy the "BOOM" of an auto cannon. I still very much enjoy my laser builds as well. Unlimited ammo without taking up tonnage is a pretty big deal, IMO.

I can see where the other side is coming from, though. I can't tell you how many people have complained in game chat, after I was able to ruin their day with my 3xUAC5 Illya. Those players are just never around to see those other instances where weapon jams leave me a sitting duck to practically any weapon brought to bear, or when I run out of ammo and become the slowest and least dangerous pew pew support mech on the field.

I think the differences between ballistics and energy weapons are intentional and, IMO, reasonable.

[Elyam]

55-ton jump-capable mediums: key maximization weight; anime aesthetic; appealed to both TT wargamers and RPG players as among the most popular designs in BT.

From its earliest days, I have more hours behind a Griffin than most could claim (over 1000 matches, from the 3020s on Solaris, through the 4th Succession War, the actions of the 3030's, the coming of the Clans, through the late 3050s). There is no mech the GRF can't defeat.

But for MWO, after initial Saber announcement (a good and profitable choice since Phoenix was largely about pulling the interest and investment of old players), I wondered how the hardpoints would be spread. As it turns out, I'm not worried about the all-Right-Torso loadout. The great challenge, of course, will be shielding constantly with the left side to keep the right alive. Allowing 7 jets is a boon toward that end. The other two variants will no doubt give us hardpoint allotments that use the rest of the mech.

I figure it will take the whole pilot-skill training period in the mech to become adept at right-guard engagement in the 1N, even for experienced Centurion pilots as the added jump-maneuvering will be key. Nothing easy here...everyone will know the score, and consistent survival will be mastered by few. But I'm really looking forward to it. These sorts of tough designs should be in MWO.

Edited by Elyam, 25 November 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Shade4x]

Meta game builds are meta game builds because they are the easiest and least skilled way for the majority of skilled pilots to do well with, almost always due to laziness. People that understand their strengths, and weakness's... their play style, and can design a mech around those will almost always beat a skilled pilot with a generic carbon copy build. This has been true for every PVP style game in exsistance. If you watch carefully you can always spot them. I remember watching the stream of the tourny winner running cataphract 3D's with the standard meta sniper build. The got absolutely wrecked by 2 shadowhawks with srms.

Who the hell do you think made the meta game builds in the first place? Someone who tried something differn't, perfected it, and made it work. Right now the rule is to all be a JJ sniper with 30-40 point alpha's and attempt to spike targets. If you don't like the rules, change em.

[Koniving]

Bront, on 10 November 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

The Griffin, not so much. Particularly the phoenix model with every hardpoint on the (left?) side of the mech.

Right side of the mech.

---------------

Bront, on 10 November 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

They can't all be meta released mechs, and if they ever do balance everything (and we are balanced better than we were a few months ago, though far from "balanced"), the Meta part won't be an issue.

But yes. Far from balanced. A significant improvement to balance would be to change the autocannons in MWO from their current form to more lore-based (bursts or full auto variants where it takes multiple hits to get the actual damage).

Assorted random examples:

Whirlwind AC/5 as an automatic style (to achieve MWO's DPS) would be 1 shot every 0.5 seconds at 1.33(repeating) damage per shot, coming to 5 damage at 1.0 seconds (Fire at 0 seconds, 0.5 seconds, 1.0 seconds) and repeating the cycle by 1.5 (just like our single shot AC/5 does now. Fire at 0 seconds, do 5 damage, wait til 1.5 seconds to fire again).

Chemjet Gun (largest inner-sphere mech-mounted AC/20) is a 4 shot cannon that deals 5 damage per shot, and to match the DPS of MWO's AC/20 would fire 1 shot every second as a full auto (chain fed). Thus (0 seconds Fire + 5 damage, 1 second fire + 5 damage, 2 seconds fire + 5 damage, 3 seconds fire + 5 seconds [20 damage], 4 seconds repeat). As a burst fire (magazine fed), it could churn out all 4 shots at 0.75 second intervals (0, 0.75, 1.5, 2.25) with 1.75 seconds of 'cool down' to reload the next magazine. (Chemjet Gun is very specifically described as a slow firing weapon).

Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is an AC/20 that is a 10 shot variant dealing 2 damage per shot with lore-based sub-variants (full auto chain fed and cassette/magazine fed burst fire).

Pontiac 50 is an AC/10 that is a 12 ton vulcan cannon that spews out "a cassette (magazine) of Fifty 100mm rounds in a single trigger pull."

It's bigger brother, the Pontiac 100, is a 14 ton AC/20 described as a "multi-barrel vulcan cannon" that "spews out a fiery cloud of a hundred 100mm rounds."

There's 4 listed AC/2 variants, 6 unique AC/5 variants (with sub-variants for Chain Fed and Magazine Fed options), 11 variants of AC/10, and 10 unique AC/20s with many sub-variants.

It's important to note that there is actually no listing, what-so-ever, of a single shot AC/20. There is a single shot UAC/20 mounted exclusively on the Cauldron Born. However on that very important note, I must also point out that the dreaded twin UAC/20 Hunchback IIC actually sports twin 6-barrel, 6 shot UAC/20s. As in it requires 6 total hits to deal 20 damage. In ultra mode, the guns fire twice as fast at risk of jamming, dealing 12 shots in the same time period to deal 40 damage.

Now, if PGI followed lore and used these instead of the "Tabletop summary," would you consider autocannons to be far more balanced?

(Note: As terrifying and "cool" as the AC/5 is in this video for the MW:LL mod, it's dealing 1 damage per shot, requiring 5 hits to deal 5 damage, done in approximately 1.6 to 2 seconds. [Slower than our AC/5 does 5 damage, which is ready to shoot again in 1.5 seconds.]) There's also 4 AC/5s on the tank at the beginning.


On this video, mind you this video is outdated and somewhat incorrect with the information at the end (as well as the number of shots the Chemjet Gun fires, it fires 4 shots not 3), the premise is essentially the same. It demonstrates "Burst fire" (magazine/cassette fed) Autocannons.



Remember that while there are single shot versions of certain cannons they do not actually include the AC/20 on Inner Sphere battlemechs (there is one mounted on a 100 ton tank because the tank is stable [short, very wide, very long] meanwhile the Inner Sphere brands of mechs are tall, too thin, too narrow to carry one. The exception potentially being the King Crab although it actually has 120mm 12 shot AC/20 Death Givers). This leaves the "powerful single hit" weapons to be one brand of AC/10s, PPCs, and Gauss Rifles being the most powerful single hit weapon in the game. Heat and Heat Scale keeps PPCs under wraps. Anyone who has ever used them know that AC/10s are way too hot to constantly use them (making the 'spread heat' instead of 'all heat at once' multi-shot AC/10s more appealing). And Gauss Rifles have their charge up mechanic.

(Edit: Replaced second video, I had the wrong one up.)

Edited by Koniving, 27 November 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[Sandra McCrow]

I am actually looking forward to the Griffin. Jumping ppc/streak boat or ml/streak boat that goes 116kph - i am in! Ballistics on a hawk are overrated - it's not a jagger, the firepower of 2 ac2 requires a long exposure that hawk cannot afford, and 3 ac2 are simply too hot.

[Buckminster]

Buckminster, on 15 November 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

I just find it curious that they picked two more 55 ton mediums for the Saber package. Someone that grabbed Overlord and Saber packages gets a total of 18 mechs, and 9 of them are 55 ton mediums.

It's actually why I didn't get it - I already had Centurions, Catapults and Ravens, and added the Locusts, Shadow Hawks, Thunderbolts and Battlemasters with the Phoenix Package. Last thing I wanted was more mediums.

Although not trying to contradict myself, I did end up buying it. Because, you know, mechs and stuff. It's not hard to sell me on the old school nostalgia.

[Alex Warden]

CyclonerM, on 10 November 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Forget the stravag meta and play YOUR game!

+10 qft

NRP, on 22 November 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Nice theory crafting. Now go build a mech around AC/5s and a mech around ERLLs, run them for 20 or so drops, then come back and tell us your story. There is a reason everyone runs ballistics these days.

funny enough, i tend to perform pretty well in "non-meta-optimized" mechs... there certainly is a reason why everyone runs the fotm builds (since cbt).... i don´t wanna make too much enemies around here, so i just stop at this point

Edited by Alex Warden, 29 November 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[Bront]

FYI:

Quote

Griffin GRF-1N(P)

• Tonnage: 55
  
• Engine: 275 Standard

• 
  
  • Top Speed: 81 kph
    
  • Max Engine Rating: 360

• Armor: 304 (Standard)
  
• Internal Structure: Standard
  
• Weapons & Equipment:

• 
  
  • Right Torso: LRM 10
    
  • Right Arm: PPC

• Hardpoints:

• 
  
  • Left Torso: 1 AMS
    
  • Right Torso: 3 Missile
    
  • Right Arm: 3 Energy

• Heat Sinks: 12 Single
  
• Jump Jets: 5 (7 Max)
  
• ECM Capable?: No
  
• Module Slots: 2
  
• 30% C-Bill Bonus
  
• 10% Loyalty Point Bonus

Griffin GRF-1S

• Tonnage: 55
  
• Engine: 275 Standard

• 
  
  • Top Speed: 81 kph
    
  • Max Engine Rating: 360

• Armor: 304 (Standard)
  
• Internal Structure: Standard
  
• Weapons & Equipment:

• 
  
  • Left Torso: LRM 5
    
  • Right Arm: Medium Laser x2, Large Laser

• Hardpoints:

• 
  
  • Left Torso: 2 Missile
    
  • Right Torso: 1 AMS
    
  • Right Arm: 4 Energy

• Heat Sinks: 16 Single
  
• Jump Jets: 5 (7 Max)
  
• ECM Capable?: No
  
• Module Slots: 2

Griffin GRF-3M

• Tonnage: 55
  
• Engine: 275 XL

• 
  
  • Top Speed: 81 kph
    
  • Max Engine Rating: 360

• Armor: 320 (Standard)
  
• Internal Structure: Standard
  
• Weapons & Equipment:

• 
  
  • Left Torso: Small Laser, CASE
    
  • Right Torso: LRM 20
    
  • Right Arm: ER PPC

• Hardpoints:

• 
  
  • Left Torso: 1 Energy, 1 AMS
    
  • Right Torso: 4 Missile
    
  • Right Arm: 1 Energy

• Heat Sinks: 13 Double
  
• Jump Jets: 5 (7 Max)
  
• ECM Capable?: No
  
• Module Slots: 2

Wolverine WVR-6R(P)

• Tonnage: 55
  
• Engine: 275 Standard

• 
  
  • Top Speed: 81 kph
    
  • Max Engine Rating: 360

• Armor: 304 (Standard)
  
• Internal Structure: Standard
  
• Weapons & Equipment:

• 
  
  • Head: Medium Laser
    
  • Left Torso: SRM 6
    
  • Right Arm: AC/5

• Hardpoints:

• 
  
  • Head: 1 Energy
    
  • Left Torso: 3 Missile
    
  • Right Torso: 1 AMS
    
  • Right Arm: 2 Ballistic

• Heat Sinks: 12 Single
  
• Jump Jets: 5 (7 Max)
  
• ECM Capable?: No
  
• Module Slots: 2
  
• 30% C-Bill Bonus
  
• 10% Loyalty Point Bonus

Wolverine WVR-6K

• Tonnage: 55
  
• Engine: 275 Standard

• 
  
  • Top Speed: 81 kph
    
  • Max Engine Rating: 375

• Armor: 368 (Standard)
  
• Internal Structure: Standard
  
• Weapons & Equipment:

• 
  
  • Head: Medium Laser
    
  • Left Torso: SRM 6
    
  • Right Arm: Small Laser, Medium Laser, Large Laser

• Hardpoints:

• 
  
  • Head: 1 Energy
    
  • Left Torso: 1 Missile
    
  • Right Torso: 1 AMS
    
  • Right Arm: 4 Energy

• Heat Sinks: 14 Single
  
• Jump Jets: 0 (0 Max)
  
• ECM Capable?: No
  
• Module Slots: 2

Wolverine WVR-7K

• Tonnage: 55
  
• Engine: 275 XL

• 
  
  • Top Speed: 81 kph
    
  • Max Engine Rating: 360

• Armor: 370 (Standard)
  
• Internal Structure: Standard
  
• Weapons & Equipment:

• 
  
  • Head: Medium Pulse Laser
    
  • Left Torso: SRM 6
    
  • Right Torso: SRM 6
    
  • Right Arm: Small Pulse Laser, Large Pulse Laser

• Hardpoints:

• 
  
  • Head: 1 Energy
    
  • Left Torso: 2 Missile
    
  • Right Torso: 1 Missile, 1 AMS
    
  • Right Arm: 2 Energy

• Heat Sinks: 13 Double
  
• Jump Jets: 5 (7 Max)
  
• ECM Capable?: No
  
• Module Slots: 2

Yeah, not really liking any of those hardpoints. The Shadowhawks look superior in almost every way. The Griffin 3M looks to be the best, but it's still an inferior light hunter compared to the 2D2.

[Jonal]

Thanks for playing the Shadow Hawk...and forcing every team to carry you. You brought down every team you ever played on. Not your fault that medium mechs suck, but it is your fault for playing one.

EDIT: Don't bother crying to me about skill, skill doesn't give you more armor. Skill doesn't make you have more weapons that hit harder. So take your skill and choke on it.

Edited by Jonal, 01 December 2013 - 07:30 AM.