43 replies to this topic

[Mokou]

Here a two mechs:
AWS-9M
and
AS7-RS
Can somebody explain me, why first mech need heat penalty, and second is OK?
Why 48 one point alpha is more then 30 alpha? 30 have more effective distance? Okay switch ERPPC to PPC i have same result 30>48, so 30 need penalty. 48 is tottaly OK, 48 is low alpha.
Max sustained DPS 3.18(with 18DHS) is less then 2.33 (with 21DHS).
Why?

Edited by Mokou, 12 November 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[LauLiao]

Mokou, on 12 November 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Here a two mechs:
AWS-9M
and
AS7-RS
Can somebody explain me, why first mech need heat penalty, and second is OK?

Because one replaces one PPC with two ER Large and an AC/10. Using too many of the same weapon causes additional heat if fired at once.

Quote

Why 48 one point alpha is more then 30 alpha? 30 have more effective distance? Okay switch ERPPC to PPC i have same result 30>48, so 30 need penalty. 48 is tottaly OK, 48 is low alpha.
Max sustained DPS 3.18(with 18DHS) is less then 2.33 (with 21DHS).
Why?

Not sure what you're getting at here. The second link is an Atlas that has 2 PPCs, 2 LL, and an AC/10. That SHOULD do more damage and more DPS than the 20 ton lighter Awesome with 3 PPCs from your first link.
48 point alpha is more than the 30 point alpha because it's a larger number. Not sure how you figure that 3.18 DPS is less than 2.33 DPS. Could you maybe clarify your question and check your math?

[Mokou]

You don't understand?

Quote

48 point alpha is more than the 30 point alpha because it's a larger number

PGI thinks 48 is less than 30.
3xPPC have 30 dmg at ~500m - PGI call this high damage one point alpha and add heat penalty.
2xPPC+AC/10+2xERLL have 48 dmg at ~500m - PGI say okay, this is not high damage one point alpha, and this combination don't need heat penalty.
So logically 30>48 (30 is higher than 48), couse 30 need HP, 48 dont need it.
Don't think about atlas or awesome, think only about weapons.
And yes, this is more heat efficiency AWS9M buid then stock AWS9M with same major weapons.
Okay if different mechs confuse you:
Here
BLR-1G
And
BLR-1G
But on AWS9M, 3xERPPC is stock build.

Edited by Mokou, 12 November 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[Heffay]

Mokou, on 12 November 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

You don't understand?
3xPPC have 30 dmg at ~500m - PGI call this high damage one point alpha and add heat penalty.
2xPPC+AC/10+2xERLL have 48 dmg at ~500m - PGI say okay, this is not high damage one point alpha, and this combination don't need heat penalty.
So logically 30>48 (30 is higher than 48), couse 30 need HP, 48 dont need it.
Don't think about atlas or awesome, think only about weapons.
And yes, this is more heat efficiency AWS9M buid then stock AWS9M with same major weapons.

I see. You aren't interested in an explanation; you just want to ***** about ghost heat!

Thread solved. Carry on, everyone. See you in K-Town soon!

[Mercules]

Mokou, on 12 November 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

You don't understand?
3xPPC have 30 dmg at ~500m - PGI call this high damage one point alpha and add heat penalty.
2xPPC+AC/10+2xERLL have 48 dmg at ~500m - PGI say okay, this is not high damage one point alpha, and this combination don't need heat penalty.
So logically 30>48 (30 is higher than 48), couse 30 need HP, 48 dont need it.
Don't think about atlas or awesome, think only about weapons.
And yes, this is more heat efficiency AWS9M buid then stock AWS9M with same major weapons.

Not hard to understand at all Firing 3 PPCs and hitting one point on a mech is better than firing 2 PPCs and hitting one point on a mech, an AC/10 hitting a totally different point of the mech and 2 Lasers that spray damage all over the mech.

[Mokou]

Mercules, on 12 November 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

2 Lasers that spray damage all over the mech.

If "Lasers that spray damage all over the mech", why no 3 lasers?

Mercules, on 12 November 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

2 PPCs and hitting one point on a mech, an AC/10 hitting a totally different point of the mech

Learn to aim.

[Sephlock]

Mokou, on 12 November 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

If "Lasers that spray damage all over the mech", why no 3 lasers?


Learn to aim.

Because then they'd all spray damage in the same points !

?

OP!

[Mercules]

Mokou, on 12 November 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

If "Lasers that spray damage all over the mech", why no 3 lasers?

Because when you start having nothing BUT LLs you can carve up mechs at a fairly good range and you are again dealing with pinpoint damage. Mixed weapons that hit different parts of the mech are less deadly than a big grouped up bunch of weapons that all hit the same spot with the same sort of delivery speed/method.

Notice you can have up to 6 medium lasers and any number of small lasers.

[Vodrin Thales]

Mokou, on 12 November 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

You don't understand?

PGI thinks 48 is less than 30.
3xPPC have 30 dmg at ~500m - PGI call this high damage one point alpha and add heat penalty.
2xPPC+AC/10+2xERLL have 48 dmg at ~500m - PGI say okay, this is not high damage one point alpha, and this combination don't need heat penalty.
So logically 30>48 (30 is higher than 48), couse 30 need HP, 48 dont need it.
Don't think about atlas or awesome, think only about weapons.
And yes, this is more heat efficiency AWS9M buid then stock AWS9M with same major weapons.
Okay if different mechs confuse you:
Here
BLR-1G
And
BLR-1G
But on AWS9M, 3xERPPC is stock build.

They don't think that 48<30. As others have stated,they recognize that 3 PPC's are a truly pinpoint hit, while the ER large lasers are not pinpoint weapons. At all but the closer of ranges they will spread there damage over multiple areas of the target mech. Ghost heat recognizes that multiple weapons of the same type are much easier to do pinpoint damage with than are different weapon types.

That said I do understand your frustration. Despite the fact ghost heat has largely helped gameplay, I find it an unwieldy and difficult to grasp system for most players. There has to be a better way to limit long range full pinpoint alphas.

[Mercules]

Vodrin Thales, on 12 November 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

They don't think that 48<30. As others have stated,they recognize that 3 PPC's are a truly pinpoint hit, while the ER large lasers are not pinpoint weapons. At all but the closer of ranges they will spread there damage over multiple areas of the target mech. Ghost heat recognizes that multiple weapons of the same type are much easier to do pinpoint damage with than are different weapon types.

That said I do understand your frustration. Despite the fact ghost heat has largely helped gameplay, I find it an unwieldy and difficult to grasp system for most players. There has to be a better way to limit long range full pinpoint alphas.

There is, it is called Convergence and means weapons don't converge on one pinpoint spot instantly when being fired but people throw up their arms and start screaming about taking the skill out of game ignoring the fact it would take MORE skill to correctly fire weapons that don't pinpoint converge and hit a mech much less the same location on a mech.

[Mokou]

What about 3xAC/10?

Vodrin Thales, on 12 November 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

That said I do understand your frustration.

No one understand, nobody ride AWS-9M, nobody ride AWS-9Q.
Every one sitin in their jagers and think AWS can't have 30 alpha is OK.

[Heffay]

Mokou, on 12 November 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

What about 3xAC/10?

No one understand, nobody ride AWS-9M, nobody ride AWS-9Q.
Every one sitin in their jagers and think AWS can't have 30 alpha is OK.

There is a sekrit way to get a 30 point pinpoint alpha strike without any heat penalty, but it's totally a sekrit!

[Sephlock]

They want to encourage hideous franken builds, ala the trial mechs.

The way I figure it, I only need to wait a few more patches before I can official declare the beginning of the Era of Taste the Rainbow!

(Am I dreaming or was the max engine size for all Hunchies 260? Since when was it raised?)

[Farix]

You can still boat those 3 PPCs, just that you have to stagger the fire to get the best affect.

[Koniving]

Mokou, on 12 November 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Here a two mechs:
AWS-9M
and
AS7-RS
Can somebody explain me, why first mech need heat penalty, and second is OK?
Why 48 one point alpha is more then 30 alpha? 30 have more effective distance? Okay switch ERPPC to PPC i have same result 30>48, so 30 need penalty. 48 is tottaly OK, 48 is low alpha.
Max sustained DPS 3.18(with 18DHS) is less then 2.33 (with 21DHS).
Why?

You're asking for consistency in a convoluted system. The problem is the system specifically targets one weapon type at a time.

PPC and ER PPC = 1 type.
LL, ER LL, LPL = 1 type.
Each type is treated separately.

Again, convoluted.

In all past mechwarrior games (not counting 4) boating was addressed by a simple solution. Too much heat = shutdown. They lamented this with 30 threshold. Generate 30 heat at any one instant, or accumulate 30 heat from firing too fast, and you shut down. (So you know, 3 ER PPCs = 45 heat; this would kill you in those games). But either way, both of those builds would be made completely and utterly useless because of 30 threshold. Basically one number said you can't alpha strike much at all.

MWO is the first and only battletech/mechwarrior game to EVER do a rising threshold. What a rising threshold does is allow you to increase how much you can alpha strike at once. The game's minimum number is 40. The game's current average is 80+. This means while 3 regular PPCs would shut you down in MW3, you can do 8 PPCs at once in MWO without a problem.

.....See the problem? Paul saw one. "Boating is bad. We need to punish it and ignore the root cause." Thus, ghost heat!

Refer to this thread. And this one. Or the one in my signature.

The first link explains the heat system (scroll to my post it isn't far down). It also has the common mistake made by those who really don't understand tabletop, which was committed here.
The second link explains many of the banes of the current ghost heat system and why it's so convoluted and not-intuitive.
The third ("My Most Accurate...") explains the first two and then some in immense detail.

Edit: For additional fun, try this one about autocannons. The first post refers to Battletech's autocannons versus what is in MWO, and then the follow up refers to many of the common "tabletop isn't balanced" arguments by listing a plethora of Battletech {Scrap} that was taken out of tabletop for simplicity.

Edited by Koniving, 13 November 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Ultimately ghost heat isn't about alpha strikes.


It addresses boating same weapon types en masse.


It's simply to promote the use of more varied weapons load outs on the mechs.

[Curccu]

Sephlock, on 12 November 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

They want to encourage hideous franken builds, ala the trial mechs.

The way I figure it, I only need to wait a few more patches before I can official declare the beginning of the Era of Taste the Rainbow!

(Am I dreaming or was the max engine size for all Hunchies 260? Since when was it raised?)

Since month or two ago...
...Have to try that twisted build of yours someday.

[Alistair Winter]

Forget game balance, forget pinpoint accuracy, forget alpha damage. The correct answer is: because PGI doesn't want us to boat. Whether you're boating ballistics, boating lasers or boating missiles, you're making PGI cry.

They want to see more players using different weapon types on the same mech, and they think ghost heat is the best way of achieving that.

[MustrumRidcully]

Ghogiel, on 12 November 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

Ultimately ghost heat isn't about alpha strikes.


It addresses boating same weapon types en masse.


It's simply to promote the use of more varied weapons load outs on the mechs.

Too bad that you need to make completely stupid builds on mechs like the AWS 8Q or 9M to avoid boating. You're not allowed to specialize by range and can only equip energy weapons on the 8Q, and the 9M cannot really effectively use many diverse missile launchers.

And I really don't get why they picked 2 as the max alpha value for LLs - LLs don't deal pinpoint damage to begin with, and 2 LLs deal less damage than 2 PPCs.

Ah, it's a system that doesn't make sense...

[Karl Streiger]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 November 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

And I really don't get why they picked 2 as the max alpha value for LLs - LLs don't deal pinpoint damage to begin with, and 2 LLs deal less damage than 2 PPCs.

Because 3 LLAS are uneven - and a Catapult C1 or a Heavy Metall would hit the same spot with a burst of those 3 LLAS...and 2 PPCs well 2 PPCs even with current heat and zero damage below 90m are a better choce in comparison to 3 LLAS (was that even before Ghost Heat)