101 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Void Angel, on 13 November 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

what my 12 man is seeing in games is a massive uptick in jump-sniper teams: not because jumping and firing got more valuable by themselves, but because of the impact of indirect-fire modules on brawler rushes.

Ahhhh, we start getting to the crux of things again. It seems more and more that a lot of the threads like this are coming from 12man PoV which (from most of what I've seen and read) is a small niche section of the player population. You simply cannot balance the entire game based on that. 12mans also need to understand that while they're games might be considered competitive to them, to the rest of the player base there's is just as competitive. It's not like 12mans are going to have any more or less impact on CW than the rest of the player base.

I'm seeing more and more of "well that won't work in a 12man" as if anyone here will ever have to play in a 12man setting. 12mans will get no more or less in the game than will everyone else. There seems to be this mentality that 12mans are "competitive" while the rest are not and that they will be the "competitive" side of CW. This simply isn't true. Others are going to have just as much impact on CW as 12mans

[Ghogiel]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

What I am implying is that only the very best of MW:O pilots should be CAPABLE of Pop Tarting. So if we have 1 million players, only 1 hundred or so should be able to Pop Tart. The rest o us should Grumble and talk behind their backs cause they ARE better than us.

The argument from fluff, aka the Stackpole fallacy.

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

What I am implying is that only the very best of MW:O pilots should be CAPABLE of Pop Tarting. So if we have 1 million players, only 1 hundred or so should be able to Pop Tart. The rest o us should Grumble and talk behind their backs cause they ARE better than us.

Can't pick and choose which parts of canon are going to be included though. If we followed lore then we would all be lucky to have one mech, and one mech alone. There wouldn't be a customizable mech lab and we most assuredly would not be running around in completely optimized mechs all the time. That's just not how that universe was set up. It was a war-torn, battle ravaged land of ruin.
Technology was in a downward spiral and even though most techs could maintain it, it was very rare that any innovation or invention of improvement was made. There were caches of lostech that noone had any idea about and contained tehcnology and mech designs that were well beyond the capabilities of the present-day technological know-how.
You definitely wouldn't have had any mech you wanted either and would be relegated to {Scrap} missions as a new recruit. That would likely mean you'd see a LOT of lights and mediums rolling around (75-85%) on the battlefield.

If we're talking TT JJ's then there were a lot of differences. JJs in TT were maneuvering jets. JJ capable mechs were very agile and not only got upward thrust but were highly directional as well. You could turn, change direction, spin, and shoot (it maiht have seemed like you couldn't but you could because all firing took place in the same phase) while in the air. The jets in TT also allowed a MUCH bigger boost in altitude. JJs now barely let you climb a moderate hill whereas in TT you could quickly and easily scale a mountain. Now some of this simply has to do with a hex-based map and movement but in any regard TT jets were much more mobile and directional

In my personal opinion MPBT 3025 did an excellent job with JJs as did MW2 Mercs.

[Void Angel]

Sandpit, on 13 November 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Ahhhh, we start getting to the crux of things again. It seems more and more that a lot of the threads like this are coming from 12man PoV which (from most of what I've seen and read) is a small niche section of the player population. You simply cannot balance the entire game based on that. 12mans also need to understand that while they're games might be considered competitive to them, to the rest of the player base there's is just as competitive. It's not like 12mans are going to have any more or less impact on CW than the rest of the player base.

I'm seeing more and more of "well that won't work in a 12man" as if anyone here will ever have to play in a 12man setting. 12mans will get no more or less in the game than will everyone else. There seems to be this mentality that 12mans are "competitive" while the rest are not and that they will be the "competitive" side of CW. This simply isn't true. Others are going to have just as much impact on CW as 12mans

You just ignored an actual point to harp on the anecdote given to demonstrate said point - all for the purpose of perpetrating a genetic fallacy so you can go on about 12-man elitism, or perceptions thereof. In the future, please attempt to understand posts to which you reply, and ask questions to clarify things you do not understand.

I mean, you do realize that you're scolding me for agreeing with you, right?

Edited by Void Angel, 13 November 2013 - 09:16 PM.

[Sandpit]

Void Angel, on 13 November 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

You just ignored an actual point to harp on the anecdote given to demonstrate said point - all for the purpose of perpetrating a genetic fallacy so you can go on about 12-man elitism, or perceptions thereof. In the future, please attempt to understand posts to which you reply, and ask questions to clarify things you do not understand.

I mean, you do realize that you're scolding me for agreeing with you, right?

First and foremost if you think that was scolding you, I should let you have a conversation with my kids sometime so you can know the difference.

It's neat how you use words I never used and perceived a lot more hostility than there is. I have nothing at all against 12mans or any other size premade. This is a team game, teamwork is not OP. I do, however, see a trend in the 12mans and a different play style and dynamic going on in that niche of the community. I didn't ignore any points, I'm pointing out that there's two unique sections of our community and a lot of the threads that involve major changes (IE removals, nerfs, etc.) seem to come from the "competitive" section of 12mans.

You cannot balance an entire game (although I think you do get some unique perspectives on certain things) based on a niche of players in the community. Maybe you should stop taking things as an attack and read a post without a bias before you respond? I ignored nothing, I pointed out that the suggestion was based on experiences of 12man play and that many seem to feel that the 12man is the "competitive" portion or that that section of players are somehow going to be more competitive and important than the rest of the players. All I am pointing out is that everyone from lone wolf puggers to 12man premades are going to have just as much involvement and impact on CW.

You do realize that you're attacking me on a personal level and pointing out hostility where there is none right?

P.S.

I stand by any and all statements when it comes to a player asking for the removal of something. I dont' care if it's a lone wolf, pugger, premade, or 12man. Bad idea and suggestion is bad idea and suggestion

[ArmageddonKnight]

Yes OP, poptarting is bad, but a sugestion like this will never get enough supporters becouse poptarting is to big a thing ingame, people dont like giving up their advantage. its just like when u nerf a weapon, all the people who use them QQ. Same thing will happen here.

That said, poptarting is only a problem becouse of pinpoint conversion, as other have said.
Most poptart mechs have their weapons setup in such a way that if pinpoint convergance wasnt a thing and it acutally mattered where the weapon was placed, those poptarts wouldnt be able to do as much pinpoint dmg, as their weapons are usualy spread between arms and torso.

As a tempory fix, this could work, but it would have to be that ..temporary. The aiming system / convergance system needs sorting to fully sort out this issue, and infact many other balance issues.

[Sandpit]

ArmageddonKnight, on 14 November 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Yes OP, poptarting is bad, but a sugestion like this will never get enough supporters becouse poptarting is to big a thing ingame, people dont like giving up their advantage. its just like when u nerf a weapon, all the people who use them QQ. Same thing will happen here.

Just because you decided to make a blanket statement:

I don't poptart, I don't even use ballistics, so your argument there is completely invalid. Don't assume to speak for or know things about other players in the game. These kinds of statements are a good example of players just making a blanket statement that is completely wrong. A bad idea is a bad idea because it's a bad idea, not because people are QQing and don't want to lose their "advantage"

[Mechteric]

There's just no logic to preventing weapons while jumping. Jump jet shake is already there to give you a fighting chance to shoot them before they can even fire at you.

[Void Angel]

Sandpit, on 14 November 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

First and foremost if you think that was scolding you, I should let you have a conversation with my kids sometime so you can know the difference.

It's neat how you use words I never used and perceived a lot more hostility than there is. I have nothing at all against 12mans or any other size premade. This is a team game, teamwork is not OP. I do, however, see a trend in the 12mans and a different play style and dynamic going on in that niche of the community. I didn't ignore any points, I'm pointing out that there's two unique sections of our community and a lot of the threads that involve major changes (IE removals, nerfs, etc.) seem to come from the "competitive" section of 12mans.

[lots more on how 12-mans are different than PuGs, etc. redacted for brevity]

You do realize that you're attacking me on a personal level and pointing out hostility where there is none right?

P.S.

I stand by any and all statements when it comes to a player asking for the removal of something. I dont' care if it's a lone wolf, pugger, premade, or 12man. Bad idea and suggestion is bad idea and suggestion

Clanner, please. Pointing out that you have misrepresented my statement in order to harp on another subject is not attacking you personally, nor am I attributing hostility to you. What I have done is scold you for ignoring my actually point in order to lecture about a different subject. No amount of word games will change that fact:neither silly deflections about "real" scolding nor nonsensical objections to my using different words to describe and summarize your statements will avail you.

Again, your maniacal focus on percieved 12-man elitism clearly demonstrates that you have not understood our conversation. I mentioned a 12-man trend in passing to illustrate my actual point - that no mechanic can be considered in a vacuum. Your response was "Ah, he mentioned 12-mans! That must be what he's all about - the crux of the matter! I shall lecture him about how 12-mans are different from PuG play and ignore the entire rest of his post!"

Edited by Void Angel, 14 November 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Sandpit]

Void Angel, on 14 November 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

snip "stuff"

No, I pointed out that 12 mans are not something that should be taken into account for balancing purposes

[Void Angel]

I despair of ever divining your purpose in redacting an entire quote when you are quoting the post above you. Regardless, I'm going to have to challenge the honesty of your protestations. You didn't just "point out" that 12-mans shouldn't^* affect balance. You accused me of approaching the isssue (on which, by the way, again, we agree) from only a 12-man perspective, then used a genetic fallacy to ignore the entire point and harp away on a soapbox.

Your inability to follow the conversation is mystifying to me. I could understand making a reading error in your first response, but you've been corrected twice now, and instead of realizing your mistake, you're going on and on as if I'm challenging your opinion on 12-mans and balance. Could it be that the half-sentence you quoted out of context was actually the only part of my original post you even read?


*:this is untrue; 12-man and PuG gameplay both need to be balanced as much as possible. Treating these needs as mutually exclusive is a false dichotomy.

[ArmageddonKnight]

JJ's use the power of the mech to superheat the air around it and use it as thrust. This is why JJ's have no finite fuel.

So technicaly JJ's shouldnt work in a vacume, but i bet they will work on the new moon base map.

JJ's use the mechs power, so why not say that when they are active, power is diverted from weapons system and/or weapon system controlers to the JJ's, thus dissabling weapons.

if JJ's are going to work in a vacume going against the way they work in BT lore, then why not make up somthing technical to explain JJ's disabling Weapons.

Saying its a bad idea becouse ..well u think its a bad idea. .doesnt make it bad.
JJ's will still work, u just end up using them as they should be, as a means to get around terrain.

The only reason u wouldnt like this idea is if u want them to be used in battle, as a means to gain an advantage, which is how they are being used atm.

Thus my previose post is valid.

[Troutmonkey]

Sandpit, on 14 November 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

No, I pointed out that 12 mans are not something that should be taken into account for balancing purposes

Every angle should be considered when balancing weapons. Generally if it's balanced for 12 mans, it will be balanced for everyone else. If it's slightly more powerful at the top level, it's going to be exponentially more powerful in the lower brackets.

Disclaimer - I only solo for the most part.

[Sandpit]

Troutmonkey, on 17 November 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Every angle should be considered when balancing weapons. Generally if it's balanced for 12 mans, it will be balanced for everyone else. If it's slightly more powerful at the top level, it's going to be exponentially more powerful in the lower brackets.

Disclaimer - I only solo for the most part.

I think you've got it backwards. It becomes more exponential in 12mans because that's where the min/max is really used. You see less variety and such at that level and you only see whatever the FotM is for the most part.

[mouser42]

I love jump brawling in light mechs it beats the heck out of being a cap pirate any day. A Jenner is not going to stand still and trade blows with any mech if it can help it. It's going to bite you on the ankle jump in the air tap dance on your cockpit canopy and then carved its initials your back armor. Most assaults and and a some heaves can kill a light with one or two alpha strikes and most medium light hunters can keep up with lights. Speed is our armor so are jump jets if used right. It takes skill and lots of practice to hit a target effectively while in the air. Some times it's the only way I can hit back with out getting killed. Last but most important to me is that most players don't have the skill at hitting fast flying objects up close or the patience to learn how, which I'm very thankful for.

Edited by mouser42, 17 November 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Void Angel]

See, I'm a little different in my lights. I use jump jets primarily to change directions just after they've shot at me - I tap the jets and get back up to speed before they can recycle their guns - or to avoid slowing down when going over very steep slopes.

Close objects, though, are difficult for larger mechs to hit, because arm weapons are actually coming in from the side - it makes it harder to hit you if their aim is even a little off. And of course, they need to lead you, too...

[NocturnalBeast]

OMG!!! Someone plays better than me....NERF THEM....NERF THEM! I could never be bothered with trying to improve my game.

[Troutmonkey]

Sandpit, on 17 November 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

I think you've got it backwards. It becomes more exponential in 12mans because that's where the min/max is really used. You see less variety and such at that level and you only see whatever the FotM is for the most part.

Typically in the higher levels the players there will be acutely aware of what's currently powerful, and the best ways to minimize, avoid or counter that move with superior skill or tactics. In the lower levels if a few players manage to exploit that unbalanced flaw, then most of the lower ranked players will be helpless to counter it, as they would lack the skill and knowledge to do so.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 18 November 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Grey Black, on 13 November 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

And this is why we shouldn't make suggestions like this. It might actually happen.

As someone that appreciate good game design and (seperated from that) doesn't care much for poptarts, this is actually a nicer thought than ghost heat.

I am not saying it's a good idea, however. It might kill too many "legitimate" uses of jump jets (like the non-poptarting light or medium mech that uses JJs to gain maneuverability in a firefight.) But, of coruse, if they'd buff jump jet distance, speed and control in exchange, maybe that could be a sacrifice worth considering.

Though even better might be just fixnig the whole heat and convergence/alpha-strike/pinpoint issues.
Heck, simply introducing a global 0.25 to 0.5 second weapon cooldown when firing any weapon that deals 5 or more damage per single projectile might address the convergence problems.

Sandpit said:

Ahhhh, we start getting to the crux of things again. It seems more and more that a lot of the threads like this are coming from 12man PoV which (from most of what I've seen and read) is a small niche section of the player population. You simply cannot balance the entire game based on that. 12mans also need to understand that while they're games might be considered competitive to them, to the rest of the player base there's is just as competitive. It's not like 12mans are going to have any more or less impact on CW than the rest of the player base.

No, you have to balance for the 12vs12 competitive play scenarios. You can't forget the regular PUGgers like me, but you also need to ensure balance is sound at 12vs12, and this is your priority.

You can't lose sight of the "lower tiers", but you also have to realize that the different levels of skill and coordination in PUGging will distort a lot of balance issues anyway. What you want to avoid is to give PUGs an easy strategy or build that is usually superior.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 November 2013 - 01:57 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 November 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

Though even better might be just fixnig the whole heat and convergence/alpha-strike/pinpoint issues.
Heck, simply introducing a global 0.25 to 0.5 second weapon cooldown when firing any weapon that deals 5 or more damage per single projectile might address the convergence problems.

Or they simple can remove that HSR thing - and bring convergence time back.
If HSR is the reason for the removement - remove HSR.
I couldn't rememeber a real problem hitting a heavy or assault mech without HSR.

I had no problems with the idea of having a designated light Mech hunter - that hardly have a problem with HSR.
I knew it was hardly possible to hit a light with an AC 20 - that was the reason to have some pulse lasers or even pilot a Hunter Killer CN9-AL (before engine cap) or Dragon

So yes Pulse Laser and SSRM should be the only weapons with HSR.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 November 2013 - 02:01 AM.