101 replies to this topic

[KinLuu]

You should still be able to fire Lasers and Missiles while jumping.

Otherwise it would be a real hard nerf for mechs that do not need hard nerfing. Like Jenner and Blackjack.

Khobai, on 12 November 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

Terrible idea. Why punish mechs like the spider because of mechs like the highlander?

The problem isnt poptarting. Its pinpoint alpha. Poptarting wouldnt be scary if pinpoint alpha weapons werent as effective. And nerfing poptarting wont make pinpoint alpha weapons any less effective.

We need to stop treating the symptoms and instead treat the actual illness, by nerfing pinpoint alpha weapons like the PPC, AC/20, AC/5, and making them spread damage around more. Mechs doing 30-40 damage to a single location is absurdly overpowered with the current armor values.

Nonsense.

Even if ACs and PPCs would spread their damage, jumpsniping would still be the no.1 tactic, because of its defensive advantages.

Edited by KinLuu, 12 November 2013 - 11:58 PM.

[Mad Cow Jenkins]

KinLuu, on 12 November 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

You should still be able to fire Lasers and Missiles while jumping.

Otherwise it would be a real hard nerf for mechs that do not need hard nerfing. Like Jenner and Blackjack.



Nonsense.

Even if ACs and PPCs would spread their damage, jumpsniping would still be the no.1 tactic, because of its defensive advantages.

And that should be the only advantage, defensive or trying to ram down another mech. I remember first i tried jump jets the disappointment of having big as rocket on your back and you move slowly controlled upwards. It would have been better with a "rocket" stage that was fullblow upwards/forwards then a "control" stage when the rocket boost slowed down.

[DLFReporter]

Jumping and Firing is BT Canon. Live with it.

[Ghogiel]

Texas Merc, on 12 November 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

OK I will be the nerd on this one.

Hey guys, In TT you couldn't jump while firing!

Tell us more about this TT of which you speak.

[MustrumRidcully]

The idea has its appeal.

Why not ghost heat from jumping? Or wouldn't even PGI go so far?

Or maybe just disable convergence when jumping?

[mike29tw]

KinLuu, on 12 November 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

You should still be able to fire Lasers and Missiles while jumping.

Otherwise it would be a real hard nerf for mechs that do not need hard nerfing. Like Jenner and Blackjack.



Nonsense.

Even if ACs and PPCs would spread their damage, jumpsniping would still be the no.1 tactic, because of its defensive advantages.

Try jump sniping with lasers and tell me how you obliterate the other team.

MustrumRidcully, on 13 November 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

The idea has its appeal.

Why not ghost heat from jumping? Or wouldn't even PGI go so far?

Or maybe just disable convergence when jumping?

Ghost JJ fuel.

Jumping more than once in 10 sec will result in addition fuel consumption. Addition fuel cost scale with tonnage.
For example, a Highlander that wants to poptart will have to pace its jump once every 10 sec, otherwise he instantly lose 50% of its JJ fuel.

This one is easy.

[XX Sulla XX]

Seems like a terrible idea. You take away something used without a problem for the majority of players in most games to address a small problem that only effects a minority of players.

[KinLuu]

mike29tw, on 13 November 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Try jump sniping with lasers and tell me how you obliterate the other team.

If the other team can only use lasers as well, no problem.

[Ghogiel]

KinLuu, on 13 November 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

If the other team can only use lasers as well, no problem.

Lasers are actually good for JJ brawling right now.

They do not suffer from the screen shake and always pin point, so you can fire them while thrusting (though it is not in the center of the crosshair and is in different place around it depending on where the weapon is mounted.)

[Grey Black]

Okay, so here's my thoughts on the matter. Tl; dr, the nerf is completely uncalled for and unnecessary as it destroys lights more than heavies.

Speaking as a heavy pilot (the Cataphract 3D is my Beauty), we really don't need to poptart. Yes, I'm set up with 2 ERPPC for sniping, but I really don't need it. Removing my ability to fire while jumping would not affect my skills in the Beauty in the slightest.

However, when I 12 man, I tend to pull out my Jenner, as I enjoy scout hunting. In my Jenner, I need every advantage I can get to not get squashed quick. Half of my piloting at that point involves quick turns, irregular movement and jumping. As a light mech, firing while jumping is not a convenience to pad my score. It's a matter of necessity. I can't count the number of times I've needed to pull off a quick jump turn into a necessary kill for the team. If my Jenner couldn't fire while jumping, there would have been a vastly different outcome in my matches.

Again, I'm not even a master light pilot! The Jenner is the guy I pull out for a change of pace. If I can learn that about light piloting in my somewhat limited experience with lights, I can only imagine the opinion and skill of a light who actually knows what they're doing and how it would affect light survivability and output to remove jump firing from the game.

I'll post more later, but please mull that over before suggesting we completely remove jump firing from the game.

[Ari Dian]

xMEPHISTOx, on 12 November 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

You must be new to the bt/mw universe...I have been able to jump and shoot in bt/mw since back in battletech solaris up to mw4 and now mwo. So while 'dolphin diving' was a term ive heard before in battlefield 2 and similar games it does not apply to jump sniping in bt/mw.

In its current state in mwo jump sniping requires a certain degree of skill and some do not have it. I feel this may be contributing to the QQ in relation to the subject, as It may seem unfair that he or she can do something I cannot.

Oh...and this (below) to.

House rules dont count.

You were never able to fire your weapons while jumping in BT.

[Tahribator]

I'd say a comprimise would be greatly increasing the "jumpjet heat" when using Class I and II Jumpjets. Let's say, as soon as you touch the spacebar instead of getting normal 20% heat, you get 50% heat. This will pretty much ensure a 2xPPC poptarter lands with 90% heat and has just screwed up his DPS until he cools down. Class III-V JJ's are unaffected since they're quite small so lights, mediums and lighter heavies(Quickdraw) can use them without penalties(or considerably less).

The heat implementation is already there, the devs would just need to adjust the heat amount. I expect a lot of tears from "competitive" community if a nerf takes place though. Then the only way to use 2xPPC+1AC effectvely would be to use a Misery, which currently is locked up behind a paywall.

[-Natural Selection-]

Know what happens when you don't give a jumper a target? They move.

Know what happens when they move? They turn into a silly frog jumping target.

Know why they keep jumping? Because people like me get used to being in a mech with JJs and it becomes like crack. You just cant stop! (speaking personally about lights, as I don't pooptart)

[General Solo]

You should I sacrifice my play style to accommodate your play style
A pop tart is only a pop tart if in cover
Some people like to jump brawl as well
Air Strike and Artillery can help with Pop Tarts
Leave my jump mechs alone

[Lykaon]

BbadAK, on 12 November 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I have posted this idea in threads before but never really gotten any feedback on it. Honestly i'm suprised it hasn't really been brought up before. Anyway, my idea for making jump jets more of a maneuvering tool is to simply disable weapons on a mech while they are in the air. If any of you played some of the earlier battlefield games, the most efficient way to kill someone was by jumping and going prone midair while firing (referred to as dolphin diving). Dice finally fixed this by simply not allowing you to shoot while in the air. I think this would benifit MWO as a whole and would make the game much more interesting and tactical.

While this eliminates pop tarting it also affects mechs in close combat and I acknowledge this. I even use jump jets on mechs like the shadow hawk while brawling to make myself harder to hit, but I would be ok with having to trade firepower for survivability and manueverability.

Comments/ concerns are welcome. I am more just curious to see what people think of the idea.

This is another "solution" that targets every jump capable mech and not targeting the problem of poptarts.

Much like ghost heat effecting every mech and not specificly high alpha builds this solution is not a solution.

[Grey Black]

Ari Dian, on 13 November 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

House rules dont count.

You were never able to fire your weapons while jumping in BT.

Lulz. Only reason you can't is because of phases of play. Otherwise, it makes logical sensethat you fire while jumping, or else what's up with the +3 modifier to hit when jumping?

[Ari Dian]

Grey Black, on 13 November 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Lulz. Only reason you can't is because of phases of play. Otherwise, it makes logical sensethat you fire while jumping, or else what's up with the +3 modifier to hit when jumping?

Not only because of the phases. You LOS is calculated from the place you end the movment, and not from somewhere in the middle while you were in the air.
If you could fire the weapons during the jump, the LOS calculation would include the jump high as well.

[Grey Black]

Ari Dian, on 13 November 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

Not only because of the phases. You LOS is calculated from the place you end the movment, and not from somewhere in the middle while you were in the air.
If you could fire the weapons during the jump, the LOS calculation would include the jump high as well.

Actually, that's exactly what I was saying. Because of how the phases are delineated, you literally jump before you fire. By your line of argument, we can only fire from a complete stop after moving. Imagine what a game that would be.

... Actually, that would balance the game a lot. I'm on the "only be able to fire from a complete stop" team.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 12 November 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

Terrible idea. Why punish mechs like the spider because of mechs like the highlander?

The problem isnt poptarting. Its pinpoint alpha. Poptarting wouldnt be scary if pinpoint alpha weapons werent as effective. And nerfing poptarting wont make pinpoint alpha weapons any less effective.

We need to stop treating the symptoms and instead treat the actual illness, by nerfing pinpoint alpha weapons like the PPC, AC/20, AC/5, and making them spread damage around more. Mechs doing 30-40 damage to a single location is absurdly overpowered with the current armor values.

Cause in all of the Canon Universe >5 Pilots could Jump and fire weapons at the same time.

[MustrumRidcully]

Grey Black, on 13 November 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Lulz. Only reason you can't is because of phases of play. Otherwise, it makes logical sensethat you fire while jumping, or else what's up with the +3 modifier to hit when jumping?

It might come from the pilot focusing so much on steering his mech that he has less time to shoot his guns over that turn.

Of course, for that reason, firing many guns should probably also come with a penalty. (In fact, in practical gameplay that's exactly what happens in MW:O for people that fire rapid fire weapons or mixed loadouts that can't just conveniently alpha-converge - you need to spread your concentration and available time to shoot your guns, making you less precise.)